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Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
http://tasvideos.org/Movies.html -> Movies by category
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 4/7/2008
Posts: 117
Thanks. My point is this should be ordered to guide the user to where they want to be, more easily visible from any page (interactive), and combinatorial. How can I join two of those categories together in my search? If I can, it's not immediately obvious how. If I'm in the NES section and I want 2-player games, I either have to search for text on the page or go back to square one and start from the category choice, then search for NES. I'm very likely to just decide it's not worth the effort. (Again I want to make it clear I understand I'm making suggestions without doing any of the work, and appreciate the people who actually do the work. I'd be willing to help, though currently all my coding freetime is gone for the next few weeks.)
Personman
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Joined: 4/20/2008
Posts: 465
In general, I think this restructuring has the potential to be the best thing that ever happened to TASVideos. In practice, I think the sudden dilution of the Stars category has drastically lowered the accessibility and value of the site to casual users, which seems to be basically the opposite of the intention. When I click on the Stars link, I am hit with a wall of 70 movies. They are sorted alphabetically, with the unfortunate result that in my first thirty seconds of looking at the page, I get the impression that the site is about speedruns of arcade games. No doubt these arcade runs are of very high quality, but they are niche enough that I think we really don't need to be presenting first-time visitors with more than one or two of them right off the bat. So, I guess I think stars should be separated from tiers, and should offer a very small (15 movies?) sampling of the best TASVideos has to offer, potentially including notable movies from tiers other than the now-renamed highest tier. I also think it might have been a good idea to put gruefood movies back onto the bench in small batches. I can't imagine very many people having the fortitude to wade through however many are there right now and give them the voting attention that they deserve.
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adelikat
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Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4738
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GMan wrote:
Perhaps we should start a thread on improving site navigation to avoid overloading this thread.
I agree, hence me mentioning that in the first post of this thread. The plan is already under way, the basic idea is just like you say, the ability to filter down. This is not just a "Oh let's come up with an idea", it is a LOT of code, that is slowly coming together.
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Player (135)
Joined: 8/27/2004
Posts: 164
I actually feel like we should have a tier between "moon" and "vault". We already had three basic tiers, in a way - star, moon, and no symbol - and I think that instead of pushing some of those together we should add on the low-entertainment-value category on the bottom. So a TAS that is well-done and entertaining and so on, but not particularly *amazing*, would not be put as high as moon, but not as low as vault either. I'm thinking that vault would then be mostly for movies that previously would have been rejected or almost rejected due to entertainment factor. So it would be like this: - Star = most notable and popular movies, people new to the site should see these first - Moon = great movies, very well done, outstanding overall - No symbol? 1up? = good movie, entertaining and optimized, in the past would be a noncontroversial acceptance - Vault = a TAS that is is objectively fast but not particularly interesting to watch (unless you know the game very well?)
Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
Allowing regular tier we can raise the barrier for stars and still put other worthy candidates to moons.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 2/16/2005
Posts: 462
I'm a little confused about the new Tiers and how they intersect with existing categories and with each other. In particular the Vault category seems to be primarily about speed while moon and stars are primarily about entertainment? It seems like those have overlap. So an any% movie that is patricularly entertaining can be both in vault and have a star? If a movie is entertaining does that mean its overqualified for vault? Also vault is limited only to any% and 100%. This should mean there are at most 2 vault runs per game. Right now we have a strange "glitched" category in a few games that is faster than the any% category but does not obsolete the any%. For example in Link to the Past the "glitched" run walks out of bounds to the final screen. Does that mean we give the vault title to the "glitched" instead of the any%?
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Joined: 5/14/2007
Posts: 525
Location: Pisces-Cetus filament
I noticed there are several movies with speed/entertainment trade-offs in the Vault. Given the current concept of the Vault, that is contradictory. I can think of two possible solutions to this problem: either creating a new tier (Miscellanea?) for these dull speedruns with speed/entertainment trade-offs (which could also be used for concept demos and playarounds) or unpublishing them.
AzumaK wrote: I swear my 1 year old daughter's favorite TASVideo is your R4MI run :3 xxNKxx wrote: ok thanks handsome feos :D Help improving TASVideos!
Banned User, Former player
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
Ilari wrote:
Warp wrote:
Can I assume that "moon" is just a temporary name until a better name is devised? Because the moon has been traditionally used (and is still used) for publications that are somehow notable (regardless of what kind of runs they are.)
Yes, there needs to be a better name for that...
What happened to this? It seems to me that the meaning of both stars and moons have been changed radically, without changing their symbols/names. I'm not sure that's such a good idea. Better rename the tiers to something else, and retain original meaning and purpose of the star and moon symbols, IMO.
Expert player (2453)
Joined: 12/23/2007
Posts: 822
I (might) found a small bug in the publication page. Shouldn't "Notable Improvements" be a lightning bolt? But in the publication page it appears to be a moon. Edit: Thanks, Ilari. It's my fault. I got it right after changing another browser.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1141)
Joined: 5/1/2010
Posts: 1217
HappyLee wrote:
I found a small bug in the publication page. Shouldn't "Notable Improvements" be a lightning bolt? But in the publication page it appears to be a moon.
It is a lightning bolt. Likely a stale cache. Do a shift-Reload.
Joined: 12/19/2007
Posts: 40
Zeupar wrote:
I noticed there are several movies with speed/entertainment trade-offs in the Vault. Given the current concept of the Vault, that is contradictory. I can think of two possible solutions to this problem: either creating a new tier (Miscellanea?) for these dull speedruns with speed/entertainment trade-offs (which could also be used for concept demos and playarounds) or unpublishing them.
I think this is the wrong way to go. If the run is the fastest run of a certain game, it shouldn't matter if it tried for entertainment or not. Sure, it should be obsoleted later if a faster run is made, but until then, it is still the current record holder and should be placed in the vault, since that is where unentertaining fast playthroughs go. It makes sense for us not to accept any new vault entries that make entertainment tradeoffs, as that means they cannot be the fastest. It does not make sense to unpublish current runs that make entertainment tradeoffs, if, as of now, they currently are the fastest. And it definitely does not make sense to create a tier for a type of movie we apparently do not want more of. Just treat the entertainment tradeoff in an unentertaining movie as a flaw that needs to be fixed for the next run. (My idea also has the advantage of making less work for the judges. If it published before and is the fastest current run, it stays in, no questions asked.)
Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
Wiki: MovieTokens This page teachs how to use tokens to create movie list pages. Basics of the future navigation, movielist generator tips (the final system would look like the submission list generator, from my discussion with staff).
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
adelikat
He/Him
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player (3598)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4738
Location: Tennessee
Warp wrote:
What happened to this?
It is the best suggestion I can think of, and I don't see a better suggestion here. I also disagree with your assessment that their meaning was changed drastically. I see them as very similar to their old meaning.
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Joined: 12/19/2007
Posts: 40
And now I'll voice my worry with the tier system. If every speedrun is going to get published, no matter how entertaining, I'm worried this will result in fewer people making speedruns with entertainment in mind. There's only so much time in the day, after all. You've mentioned a form of gamification where you reward people who make the most entertaining games with a higher score of some kind. That's good, but I think you might want to go a bit further, and actually make a point to recognize people who have really high scores. Something like a list of the top 10 TASers. Or if you want to be less competitive about it, just occasionally have a "featured TASer" on the main movie page that's selected from amongst the top TASers that are still around. If the point of the site is still entertainment, then we need to reward the most entertaining TASers.
adelikat
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Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player (3598)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4738
Location: Tennessee
trlky wrote:
You've mentioned a form of gamification where you reward people who make the most entertaining games with a higher score of some kind. That's good, but I think you might want to go a bit further, and actually make a point to recognize people who have really high scores. Something like a list of the top 10 TASers. Or if you want to be less competitive about it, just occasionally have a "featured TASer" on the main movie page that's selected from amongst the top TASers that are still around.
These are all interesting ideas I had not considered. Thank you, I will keep these in mind.
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Joined: 5/14/2007
Posts: 525
Location: Pisces-Cetus filament
trlky wrote:
Zeupar wrote:
I noticed there are several movies with speed/entertainment trade-offs in the Vault. Given the current concept of the Vault, that is contradictory. I can think of two possible solutions to this problem: either creating a new tier (Miscellanea?) for these dull speedruns with speed/entertainment trade-offs (which could also be used for concept demos and playarounds) or unpublishing them.
And it definitely does not make sense to create a tier for a type of movie we apparently do not want more of.
It looks like you missed the parts in brackets. Several people have suggested creating a new tier for published movies that don't belong to any of the three we currently have, and I was saying dull speedruns with speed/entertainment trade-offs would fit in such tier just fine. In case you missed it as well, adelikat said in a previous post he is considering creating a new tier in the near future, so my suggestion makes a lot of sense.
AzumaK wrote: I swear my 1 year old daughter's favorite TASVideo is your R4MI run :3 xxNKxx wrote: ok thanks handsome feos :D Help improving TASVideos!
darkszero
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Joined: 7/12/2009
Posts: 181
Location: São Paulo, Brazil
When I think of the Vault, the idea "if the movie is the fastest way to beat the game, it's in the Vault". However, that doesn't exclude the movie from being a Star movie. The SM64 "0 Star" is a good example. It's the fastest any% completion of Mario 64, so it should be in the Vault, but it's a highly-optimized and entertaining movie of the very famous game, so it fits in the Star Tier. Basically, the Vault is somewhere you go when you want to see about a specific game. So the best way to list the contents of the Vault would be a many big tables of GameName-TAS Time, one table for each system. Expanding from this, we could have another "Tier", or just expand the Vault, to allow the fastest-completion of other branches. A good example would be the SDA page for Metroid Prime. We don't need that many branches here, but we also don't have much reason to refuse these branches. To sum it up:
  • Fast movies always have a place, as long as they're the fastest.
  • Being in the vault doesn't mean the movie can't be in the Star/Moon Tier.
  • We can easily expand this to allow many branches.
adelikat
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I would be open to a tier between moon and vault. However, I struggle when it comes to writing up a good description that allows a judge and viewer to be able to logically distinguish between them. It needs to be more than just "movies that would or wouldn't have been rejected in the past". We need wording going forward. So, write up a proposal and post it here! Something along the lines of [http://tasvideos.org/Vault.html]. I'll seriously consider it. BrandonE posted one for the concept/demo type tier earlier in this thread . This is exactly what I'm looking for. I'm not quite ready to add any tiers now, but in the next coming weeks/months, I will be revisiting these.
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Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11269
Location: RU
That requires the Moon tier rules to be reworded too, to put the Moon content higher than it corrently is, which would free the space or a Regular tier.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Player (26)
Joined: 8/29/2011
Posts: 1206
Location: Amsterdam
I don't understand why the Vault rules say that winning a board game against the CPU doesn't count as completing the game. Why is that?
Reviewer, Active player (277)
Joined: 12/14/2006
Posts: 717
I support GMan`s proposal, personally. It seems to me to be the most meaningful breakdown yet.
Experienced player (509)
Joined: 11/2/2010
Posts: 359
I have been thinking and so far I don't believe the system that is in place works and would prefer to revert back unless a change is made. A major problem I see is that currently runs that were good enough to be accepted and runs that are currently only being accepted because they set a record and are ranked in the same way on the site. You may say that we have a rating system in place to prevent that but I strongly believe the largest flaw with TASVideos at current was the rating system in place and not the bad game choice rule. It is probably too late in the game to make this change but what my ideal system is as follows. 1. Do not have tiers. If the volume of publications becomes too large to have a single tier system then implement a tiered system that is solely based on rating removing subjective placement. 2. Revert the moon and star tier to tweaked versions of their previous intentions. ______2.a. Moons will be historically significant TAS'es. This includes the first TAS published on each console (including now obsolete runs), the oldest non-obsolete TAS published on each console, and the highest rated TAS published on each console. There are currently 16 consoles with a TAS published on this site. This means a maximum of 48 runs would be present in this category and, for the foreseeable future, a situation where there will always be fewer than 100 runs in the category. ______2.b. Stars will be the 25 or 50 on the site that most exemplify the TASVideos site. This category would be maintained by the members of the site as the collection that would be the best first impression of TASVideos and where new users should look. This category could contain highly entertaining runs, heavy glitch abuse or other technical feats that would show what this website is about to new users. This category could be created by an upper level user at first but then would require a thread each year in a similar vein to the awards where users discuss and vote on changes to the movies on the list and potentially the order listed. This would mean that that it would be an ever-evolving list of the best first impression movies on the site without being diluted with too large of a number like the current star system is implying. Currently the star system is similar to this but I fear with the current tier system it will soon grow out of control and lose its purpose. 3. Most importantly change the voting system and acceptance system. No longer have "Yes," "No," and "Meh" options but instead simply a "Yes" and "No" category. Upon clicking the "Yes" button the voter would be prompted with the current "The entertainment value of this movie: - " and "The technical quality of this movie: -" rating prompts on the site. When clicking "No" the user will be prompted with "Reason for no vote:" and would have a drop down with reasons for rejecting including "Suboptimal," "Does not complete game," "Non-game" which would be for things like the NES Test Cart or The Fairly Odd Parents "Gameboy Video Version", or "Unworthy" which would again prompt the current rating system so that they could voice their displeasure in the game. I believe this system would be the best solution as it would fix many of the current problems with the site. First, it would fix the rating system which itself is a major step forward. No longer would there be around 40 runs on the site with 3 or fewer ratings. Second it would remove the need for the Bad Game choice due to low entertainment rule as it would be immediately sorted to the lowest entertainment runs on the site. If it really is at such a low level of entertainment it will be reflected in the 10+ ratings it was given upon acceptance as each person who voted on the run was forced to apply a rating. Third it would remove any conflict or argument over which tier a run would be placed in if tiers remained implemented. Users could no longer argue with judges or those who decide the tiers about which level their run was placed in because the masses spoke and that was how the placement was decided. I understand that this idea will most likely not be implemented but I feel if it was it would be a major step in improving this already good site. Other than those changes the only only changes I would like to see in the site is a creation of the ability to attach messages to the ratings to negate arguments about why people gave the rating they did but that is a step I do not believe to be as crucial. TLDR: Come on, you already read 10 pages of this forum. Just read a few more paragraphs.
adelikat
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As for rating a movie when it is a submission, I thought of that back in 2008. Seemed like a great idea, all those votes would turn into ratings and improve the rating system and give judges more information for judging. But it clearly failed. Instead people rated 10 on movies, to see them published, and ratings were heavily inflated. We reverted back.
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Experienced player (509)
Joined: 11/2/2010
Posts: 359
adelikat wrote:
As for rating a movie when it is a submission, I thought of that back in 2008. Seemed like a great idea, all those votes would turn into ratings and improve the rating system and give judges more information for judging. But it clearly failed. Instead people rated 10 on movies, to see them published, and ratings were heavily inflated. We reverted back.
That shouldn't be a problem any longer as how entertaining the movie is no longer has a bearing on whether or not it is accepted. I believe trusting the masses is a better choice than trusting the top 5 or 10 members of the site to accurately control where each movie is placed.
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