Posted: 5/25/2013 3:03 PM
Post subject: An interesting question about taking damage after the movie
Quote
Espyo
Joined: 6/7/2008
Posts: 123
Location: Portugal
Suppose you have a game where, after the last hit on the final boss is struck, no further input is necessary for the game to show the credits and such. Suppose you have a bomb that explodes with time as a weapon. Suppose that this run takes no damage before the point I'll be describing next. Suppose that the way to end the movie the soonest is by planting a bomb, and terminating the movie there. While the bomb doesn't explode, you're sitting there taking damage from the boss. Then, the bomb explodes and takes down the boss, after which the game is completed. What kind of run is this? A "takes damage to save time" run, correct? ...Is it? Think about it, you never took any damage during the movie itself. What happens beyond the movie is no longer the TAS, but the game doing its thing. So it's a "takes no damage" run. ...Is it? In the "run" you ended up taking damage, which you could've avoided by delaying the movie's end and finishing off the boss in another way. What are your thoughts on this? In the end, I'm guessing something funny like the movie being categorized in both categories would happen, and nobody would throw a big fight over the different points of view, but it's still worth thinking about it. (Also this seems like the kind of thing that could've been discussed before. Apologies if that's the case.)
I'm Espyo from the SRB2 Forums. Current project: A Pikmin fan engine, Pikifen
Posted: 5/25/2013 3:09 PM
Quote
scrimpeh
Editor, Skilled player (1404)
Joined: 3/31/2010
Posts: 2086
TAS of 2017 First edition TAS of 2017 PSX TAS of 2017
I'm inclined to just say 'call it on case-by-case' basis, since such a case is pretty rare, and it's all just a manner of categorizing. I think however that damage taken after the input ends should count towards the movie as a whole. Therefore, a movie would also need to avoid taking damage post-input to be categorized as 'takes no damage' Extending input to avoid taking damage could be considered a speed/entertainment tradeoff in that regard, as it's essentially making the movie longer to pursue a secondary goal.
Posted: 5/25/2013 3:20 PM
Quote
Ilari
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1141)
Joined: 5/1/2010
Posts: 1217
Rookie of 2010 New systems TASer of 2010 New systems TAS of 2010
Also note that that kind of thing (taking damage post movie end) might look bad even for runs taking damage. E.g. see Rosenkreuzstilette "Spiritia" or Rockman 4 Minus Infinity.
Posted: 5/25/2013 3:31 PM
Quote
hegyak
Editor
Joined: 3/31/2010
Posts: 1466
Location: Not playing Puyo Tetris
What about Puggsy? It ends on the first possible frame (as per the rules), still takes damage but wins. I would say, the category "Takes damage to save time" works for these situations.
When TAS does Quake 1, SDA will declare war. The Prince doth arrive he doth please.
Posted: 5/25/2013 4:09 PM
Quote
Warp
Banned User, Former player
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
hegyak wrote:
It ends on the first possible frame (as per the rules)
I don't think there are definitive rules on when the input should be ended, because the definition and requirements are not unambiguous. Having the movie end at the earliest possible moment after which the game progresses to the end, without any further input, is a bit controversial. (Sure, situations where there's a significantly long amount of time between ending input and the game ending happen extremely rarely, but it has happened.) Personally I like most the principle "the input should be ended in the earliest possible frame so that the game progresses to the end, and the end of the game cannot be made to happen sooner by providing further input." But it's not a hard rule (and probably couldn't even be.)
Posted: 5/25/2013 4:56 PM
Post subject: Re: An interesting question about taking damage after the movie
Quote
Scepheo
Player (142)
Joined: 7/16/2009
Posts: 686
Espyo wrote:
Think about it, you never took any damage during the movie itself. What happens beyond the movie is no longer the TAS, but the game doing its thing.
According to this logic, all TASes that end input early don't even complete the game.
Posted: 5/25/2013 8:49 PM
Quote
adelikat
He/Him
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player (3598)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4738
Location: Tennessee
TASer of 2010 NES TASer of 2010 DS TASer of 2010 Arcade TAS of 2010 NES TASer of 2008 NES TAS of 2008 Funny TAS of 2008 TASer of 2007 NES TASer of 2007 Funny TAS of 2007
Warp wrote:
Personally I like most the principle "the input should be ended in the earliest possible frame so that the game progresses to the end, and the end of the game cannot be made to happen sooner by providing further input."
Nearly all of my TASes follow this rule. There have been occasions where I've lengthened the completion of the game to shorten the movie, but it was on a scale of mere frames. As for making some kind of rule, I don't think you can, there are several valid opinions there.
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
Posted: 5/25/2013 11:18 PM
Quote
RachelB
She/Her
Player (127)
Joined: 12/3/2011
Posts: 1579
Anything that happens after input ends is still part of the movie, as far as i see it.
Posted: 5/26/2013 6:07 AM
Quote
Mr._Kelly_R._Flewin
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 757
*cough cough Monopoly cough cough*
Mr. Kelly R. Flewin Just another random gamer ---- <OmnipotentEntity> How do you people get bored in the span of 10 seconds? Worst ADD ever.
Posted: 5/26/2013 4:11 PM
Quote
Derakon
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
"Takes damage to save time" is totally applicable here. If you didn't take the damage, you wouldn't have been able to end the movie at the point you did (at the very least you would have had to have moved out of the way of the bomb explosion). The time saved by taking damage is the time to the end of the game, not the end of the movie.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.