(Link to video)
Submission Text Full Submission Page
  • Uses resets as a shortcut
  • Uses 2 easter eggs for a faster and more entertaining run
  • Used a lua bot for testing
  • Has heavy luck manipulation
  • The run can be played back via the lua script

Info and History

This TAS is about 18 seconds faster then my test TAS, and around 1:21 faster than よっちお's TAS on nicovideo, which Feasel found when we were route planning for his speedrun. I was starting to research and route plan to improve the currently published TAS, which is way out of date, but I decided to work on this first because it is easier to make. I originally intended this not to replace the currently published TAS, but I realize that its new route will be too similar to this TAS, but slower due to health recovery and leveling, so I would be okay with this replacing the current TAS. The reason I used the J version is that I could not find a way to make the infinite HP easter egg work with the U version. However the infinite MP works with either version.
This run can be played back using the lua script that I ended up creating because of the testing for RNG manipulation:

Luck manipulation

This ended up being far more tricky than I initially thought. One way this is done is to delay the screen transition by entering the screen from a different position or not moving if the first is not available. The other way is by killing a monster which then advances the RNG by various amounts when the monster spawns. This manipulation affects the possible RNG manipulation on the next screen, so I had to do the testing in larger sections, each had many possibilities, so I had to do lua bot testing for much of it when I could.
I manipulate the stronger monsters to stay out the way because each time I stop to do an attack on the monster, it costs 6 frames. This adds up really fast, especially because I spend almost the whole time at level 1. The weaker monsters cost only 1 frame to attack because I don't have to stop walking.
The path I took is mostly dictated by RNG manipulation, but I took a path that reduced terrain damage when I could. Each square adds or reduces a 1 byte terrain counter by a various amount, and is affected by the current level. When the timer overflows, it adds an HP, and reduces an HP when it underflows. It probably doesn't make a difference in this TAS, but if it did, it would only save 2 frames.
I had to lose approximately 142 frames to get the luck manipulation where the monsters stayed out of the way. Killing monsters that take more than 1 hit wastes too much time, so that is avoided when possible.
Here is the explanation for each section, and frames lost for manipulation:

Infinite HP Setup and RNG Manipulation -- 51

In order to setup the infinite HP, the following must be done, in any order: 2 demo screens (waiting on the main screen), 3 invalid passwords, and 4 game menu in the game. The 4 game menu are the only ones that make sense to group together for speed. Because the order that I do those affects the starting RNG (further complicated by adding in delays), I started using a lua bot for testing. I later found out that I can reset, which made testing easier even though I had to restart testing, and also saved around 10 seconds by not having to wait for the game over and invalid password animations, and a minor saving by not having to load the demo screen.
The reason I manipulate the RNG is to get the best placement of fairy 1 and the key, which is set when the game starts. The best is the key in chest 7, and fairy 1 in tree 8, which I was able to obtain by adding in 51 frames of delay. There is technically a 3 frame faster overall RNG which has the key in chest 5, but because it results in less available paths in the key cave, it could easily end up slower since 1 delay is 4 frames. Also, key 7 looks better since there is no backtracking.

Sword Cave -- 12

On the way to the sword cave from the start of the game, I learned that I can manipulate the RNG by where and when I enter the screen, which means I can manipulate the RNG without losing frames. This meant that I had to continue bot testing because of all the possible combinations. I ended up delaying 1 time which cost 4 frames on the way to the cave to manipulate better enemy positions. I lost 8 frames inside the cave. 4 from starting on top of a wisp, 2 from a wisp attacking, and 2 from a HP refill.

Roper Maze -- 5

I was able to get a pattern that kept the ropers out of the way since they take more than 1 hit. I had to delay once for 4 frames, and I ended up killing a kobold, costing 1 frame.

Key Cave -- 0

By having the key in chest 7, there are 6 available paths, which makes it really easy to avoid enemies, so this cave was perfect. As mentioned before, had I chosen key chest 5, there would be only 1 path, which would have made this more difficult.

Fairy 2 -- 2

I had an HP refill here, which costs 2 frames. A refill had to happen at some point due to terrain damage, so I suppose it shouldn't count. It is faster by 4 frames to walk into a tree from a square below, so I manipulate the tree to be at least a square away.

Ring Cave -- 19

I have to kill 3 goldams (and no ladyams) in order to make the ring chest appear. I initially delay twice for a total of 8 frames to avoid getting hit by the first goldam, which ends up being 2 frames faster overall. I delay once for 4 frames for RNG manipulation. I get hit once by the second goldam, losing 4 frames because it cause an HP refill. I couldn't attack it from the side or back to avoid damage. I run into the ladyam, losing 2 frames. I use attack mode (for no frame penalty) for later on. The third goldam was perfect. Coming back, I run into the ladyam again, using attack mode. Because I had used attack mode before, this kills the ladyam, and so I only lose 1 frame, for a total of 3.

Jewel -- 1

A slime was in the way, but that only loses 1 frame. The path in the graveyard minimized the bad terrain as well as manipulated the zombies away.

Fairy 1 -- 0

The way to get the temporary MP is to get the sword and then without save-reloading (which also resets the position for fairy 1 and the key), enter the screen where fairy 1 is located. The tree for fairy 1 was chosen back when the game was started. Again it is 4 frames faster to run into a tree from the square below.

Fairy 3 -- 0

To get fairy 3, you must kill both wizards with a wave magic, which only shoots horizontally. Its speed is the same as Jim, so the X position is irrelevant. The reason for the y position is that the fairy transport is extremely slow, so each y position lower on the screen costs 20 frames. Manipulating the RNG is important here and also for the next section. I couldn't bot test this because I had to do manual analysis for the wave.

Grave Vandalism -- 46

This was a pain because I had to find a pattern where all blackams and skeletons were out of the way. This is the best I could come up with from manual testing and is the only place where RNG manipulation is obvious. There could be a better pattern, but it is too hard to test every pattern by hand. In the maze, I lost 2 frames from an HP refill, and 8 frames because a blackam attacked twice. After the grave is broken, the reason for moving to the right and the 2 delays is to get the skeleton that just spawned to move to the right, which costs 32 frames. It is faster than fighting it. I delayed once for 4 frames in the Varalys room to wait for the skeleton to get out of the way.

Water Dragon -- 0

There are a few ways to get the fastest dragon battle. The easiest way is blindly attacking to the right because of infinite HP. I took a path that showed off a little. I wanted to get the dragon more to the left, but that didn't work because it ends up adding up extra waiting.

Luby and Maze(Again) -- 2

This is a simple section. There is luck manipulation to get the blackams out of the way in the maze and also for a good Varalys position. This time a blackam attacked one time, but because of the extra HP from gaining a level from fighting the dragon, I did not get the extra delay for the HP refill.

Varalys -- 4

This battle is also simple with infinite HP. I suppose there could be a better Varalys, but this is pretty darn good considering I got this with no delaying for the luck manipulation.

Thanks

  • Feasel for getting me into this game and helping with the route planning.
  • よっちお for the TAS that showed the infinite HP easter egg.
  • FractalFusion for the research of the RNG which made testing easier.
  • Inzult for the currently published TAS

Suggested screenshot

12421

feos: This submission uses a certain setup to gain an unfair advantage that can not be obtained the gameplay way - infinite HP. That fact equates this setup to using a cheat or a debug code, which is not allowed by the rules.
Arguably, such a branch could still be published if the audience really liked it. But the feedback was pretty much as bad as can be expected for this game. So, it has no way into Moons, and using an unfair advantage means it can't go to Vault either. Rejecting, and hoping the "any%" version would follow someday, where we would have no chance for rejection.

TASVideoAgent
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This topic is for the purpose of discussing #3980: dunnius's NES Hydlide "Easter Eggs" in 03:41.67
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Voting yes. Been watching the development of this for a while.
I think.....therefore I am not Barry Burton
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I would've voted no for using an ingame "easter egg" if not for the fact the existing run was boring as heck. Yes vote.
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Voting No, this made just no sense for me.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
JXQ
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And what a fine luby it is!
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
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What we would need to know is whether that "easter egg" can be considered a glitch or a cheat code/debug mode/whatever that gives an unfair advantage not directly obtainable through gameplay. If the former, this would most likely obsolete the current any% branch, otherwise it would be rejected due to being badly received.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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This sounds like a cheat code to me, not an easter egg.
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It is not a cheat code; it is built into the game. It is used to cut out a significant amount of waiting and remove leveling. The currently published run is way out of date, but its new route would basically be the same as this route; the main difference is a detour for leveling, as well as getting the shield, and changes when fairy 3 is saved. The battles with the dragon and Varalys would be much longer and therefore boring because I would have to stop in the middle of it to recover health, which is standing around because that recovers health faster. Funny that those who are voting no have yet to give a good reason why. This game gets too much unwarranted hate.
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http://u-xyz.cside7.com/syumi/HLS/hls-ura.htm It's an invincibility code. Just because it makes you jump through a couple extra hoops before putting in a password doesn't NOT make it a cheat code. What makes it any different from using a password to start with max stats or most of the items?
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Voting yes. Great run, smart route.
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Cheat and debug codes are also built into games by devs. Being built in proves it's not a glitch. Then it's a sort of code giving unfair advantage and reducing the difficulty.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
AnS
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Voted Meh. Good thing is, this movie is only half as painful to watch as currently published movie! Unfortunately, it would be illogic to replace normal speedrun with an IDDQD version.
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I'm pretty sure nobody, including the author, is suggesting that this replace the current any% TAS. I believe the suggestion here is that the Japanese Hydlide is different enough from the American Hydlide to warrant its own category. The ability to gain infinite health makes it so you don't have to grind levels before facing the final boss, which has a big impact on the route you take. So in a speedrun sense, the two versions are hard to compare, much like an any% and a low% run. In some sense the American version may be a more entertaining run because it includes the elements of level-grinding strategy, monster evasion, and tougher Dragon and Varayls fights. However the Japanese version is definitely a faster run, so there's the "always use the fastest ROM version" rule to consider. And this particular submission is remarkably well optimized, using methods far more sophisticated than those Inzult used for his US-version TAS years ago. So from a technical standpoint this new submission is clearly the more interesting run. Given that Inzult's and Dunnius's TASes both have their merits, maybe it makes sense to have them co-exist in separate categories?
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It would be possible for them to co-exist (this one being a side branch) if this submission had good feedback that would lead it to Moons (the place where categories other than any% and 100% can exist). But the feedback here is quite bad, and using this cheat means it can not become legit any% category, so unfortunately it can not be published neither in Moons nor in Vault for now. I can't imagine the branch that would be liked by the audience, even though I understand that this cheat improves the time very much. But TASVideos can't accept everything, there is still some bar explained here: http://tasvideos.org/Guidelines.html#Tiers http://tasvideos.org/JudgeGuidelines.html#TiersAndGoals
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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The feedback will always be bad given that this is Hydlide, a game that everyone is told to hate, causing a bias in voting. Even the currently published movie description does not have a null point of view with: "It was suggested that this movie be published with a "Music from Hell" warning label." In fact, that description seems to indicate that this run would be superior in entertainment due to less waiting for health recovery, which is what most of the text talks about, for a good reason. So the question is which run is more entertaining to watch. Currently published movie description: "Hydlide is an old and somewhat notorious game, mostly because it has very strange gameplay mechanics. For the first part of the game, walking consumes health, and the character must stop every now and then to regain it. This one of the few games (the only one?) where the level grinding sequences are actually entertaining, while the boss fights aren't. Hitting a boss decreases your own health as well as the boss's, after which there is much waiting for more health until you can hit him again. It was suggested that this movie be published with a "Music from Hell" warning label."
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dunnius wrote:
The feedback will always be bad given that this is Hydlide, a game that everyone is told to hate, causing a bias in voting.
Where exactly is this paranoia coming from? And you never answered my question about what makes this different from another password that gives you max stats or the like. That'd also remove some, if not all, of the grinding and would take significantly less time to set up. And the question isn't which is more entertaining. It's already in the vault. Entertainment has nothing to do with it. Your run needs to be entertaining enough, and by your own description, it's almost entirely just RNG manipulation and utterly trivial pathfinding with a cheat code for invincibility. Those are not things that traditionally do well in the 'entertainment' department.
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Correct, this run is still more entertaining than the published one. But the tier system is set up that way so we can accept only a certain range of content to Vault - the games that have plain speed records, which can be interesting to watch to certain people, and there these games are. Being a speed record with NO trade-offs is what justifies expanding Vault. There are SOME runs that contradict this initial Vault system, but 1) that's another question, and 2) past mistakes don't justify repeating them in future. Even if this submission does obsolete the published run by entertainment, there's no reason to replace/obsolete anything, since these 2 runs belong to different branches. If you finally make the any% run, it will definitely obsolete the current one. As for what variety over the existing run this one represents, if we had a Demo tier, I would gladly move this submission to there just to show off something. But there's no Demo tier. And this can't be published. dunnius, your feelings and intension are known, no one disqualifies them. But the current system isn't suitable for such manifestation of them.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Of course a "proper" any% run would obsolete the old run, but I don't think a theoretical future run should weigh in to the decision here. If there's absolutely no way both runs can be on the site, I'd support obsoletion considering just how out of date the published run is. I'm not for keeping a crappy run on the site when a good run is right here ready for us.
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We don't do blind obsoletion (unortunately there are still some examples of such). It's not just another branch, it's also an unfair advantage code run. I already explained that all, why repeat the same arguments all over again?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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om, nom, nom... om, nom, nom... nom nom
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For the record, I liked this run. Any run that has heavy luck-manipulation requiring the use of Lua tends to get that from me, and having a $10-budget BGM doesn't change that. Though it is unfortunate that the codes are considered off-limits for TASVideos, and the game is generally considered unentertaining (and by extension, the run, regardless of its merits). I think the audience over at Nicovideo would appreciate this TAS. If no one else does it, I'll upload an encode.
Patashu
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FractalFusion wrote:
I think the audience over at Nicovideo would appreciate this TAS. If no one else does it, I'll upload an encode.
Seconding this :)
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That's why I once again mentioned I wished the Demo tier existed. This is a very huge tech achievement that can not actually be judged by pure entertainment grounds. I'm not 100% okay with the current system either.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Oh, forgot to mention. I uploaded the encode to Nicovideo a while ago. It currently has about 16000 views.
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What's happening with the part at 1:59 where the screen flashes, two rows of Goldams walk down the right side of the screen, and the music starts playing at double speed? I don't remember ever seeing that before, and can't find anything about it -- is it exclusive to the Japanese release?