Posted: 8/31/2013 5:57 PM
(Edited: 9/4/2013 12:28 AM)
Post subject: Warsong
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ars4326
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Location: Missouri, USA
Hi, everyone. I'm a longtime fan of the website and am looking at trying my hand at a tool-assisted speed run of an old favorite of mine, Warsong. My goal is a complete play-through of the game. Here's a WIP I've made of the first stage: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1677664721/Warsong%20%28USA%29.gmv DETAILED SYNOPSIS To begin, I immediately used the 'all items' code during the character select screen. It wasn't necessary to equip Garrett with anything here so I just inputted the code for later use (also because using it automatically takes away all funds). I figure having all of the items (excluding Warsong) available to me from the beginning would speed things along throughout the entire run; particularly in having access to the Dragon Slayer and Magic Wand. During my test run of the first stage, I tried figuring out how to reliably manipulate the battles during both the 'player' and 'enemy' phases. Particularly, during the enemy's phase it seems like there is a limited "window" of opportunity to manipulate the RNG sometime between the enemy/A.I. choosing its action and just before it fades and transitions into the battle screen. I haven't pinpointed exactly where this "window" occurs, however. Button-mashing has been my best source of success, so far, in achieving favorable outcomes. If any of you more experienced TASers can help me out here with frame manipulation, I'd greatly appreciate it. I'm definitely serious about finally getting a run of this game on tasvideos.
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
Posted: 9/1/2013 6:39 PM
(Edited: 9/12/2013 5:08 PM)
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ars4326
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Posts: 706
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Scenarios 2 & 3 completed: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1528185619/Warsong%20%28USA%29.gmv Notes/Observations I'm starting to get the hang of frame optimization better; it definitely shows throughout Scenario 2. Mina runs on an A.I. script that typically moves every other turn. I did my best to work around this by either forcing her to use 'treat' (and stay out the range of enemy Shamans) or heal Garret and Baldarou. Luck manipulation isn't terribly difficult to pull off. Like I mentioned in my last post, a particular battle's outcome is (basically) dependent upon which frame the 'C' button is pressed between the period of choosing a target and confirming. For example, here is a brief list of the possible outcomes during a battle between Lv 1 Garrett and a Shaman commander: Frame # 33328: Garrett 8hp Shaman 0hp 33330: Garrett 9hp Shaman 3hp 33332: Garrett 7hp Shaman 1hp 33333: Garrett 7hp Shaman 5hp 33336: Garrett 6hp Shaman 2hp The major reason for this variance is due to Garrett's low level. Higher levels are much easier to favorably manipulate due to better bonuses in accuracy. However, there were some cases where I wasn't able to get a perfect fight with Garrett emerging unscathed. Better knowledge of RAM addresses could definitely help more down the road. Scenario 3 went faster than I expected. Despite Thorne not reacting how I wanted him to, I was able to move Baldarou East and defeat Malvese within 5 turns. All in all, I plan on posting updates once a week with at least one Scenario finished (if not more). Route planning, and such, will obviously become more complicated as I go further along. Regardless, I intend to complete a full play-through of the game. EDIT: Well I'll be...I just now noticed that holding down the 'B' button greatly increases the speed of the movement cursor. Back to the beginning we go!
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
Posted: 9/2/2013 12:04 PM
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ars4326
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Quick update: Scenario 1 http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1602437423/Warsong%20From%20Start%201.1.gmv 1994 frames faster than my first attempt. Better optimization, improved battle manipulation and increased movement speed due to holding down 'B'.
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
Posted: 9/2/2013 2:07 PM
Post subject: Warsong wip1: YouTube
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antd
Joined: 3/18/2006
Posts: 971
Location: Great Britain
Link to video
ars4326 wrote:
Scenarios 2 & 3 completed: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1528185619/Warsong%20%28USA%29.gmv
Posted: 9/2/2013 5:20 PM
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AKheon
Editor, Experienced player (885)
Joined: 1/23/2008
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Location: Finland
I don't know this game, but it seems to have nice music. Using an in-game cheat code that gives you an advantage is pretty dubious and un-TASlike. Typically things like cheats or passwords aren't allowed in a run. You should make sure if using the code can be justified in this case before continuing, lest you have to restart once more.
Posted: 9/2/2013 7:11 PM
(Edited: 9/4/2013 12:27 AM)
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ars4326
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[post deleted]
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
Posted: 9/4/2013 12:23 AM
(Edited: 9/4/2013 11:04 AM)
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ars4326
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After consulting with adelikat, I've been made aware that making use of the 'all items' code would very likely cause my run to be rejected. Therefore, I've decided to start again from the beginning without the use of codes. Overall, not a big loss since I've become more familiar with game mechanics/luck manipulation and should be able to manage fine without. In the meantime, here's my latest WIP ('all items' code in use) up to Scenario 4: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/198141058/Warsong%20From%20Start%201.1.gmv The basic strategy in this stage was to draw the attacking slime units down towards the southwest corner of the map just in time for the arrival of Mina's guardsman reinforcements during turn 5. In the meantime, Sabra was strategically "in the line of fire" with the Evil Axe to soak up experience. The method was effective, albeit a bit time-consuming (Thorne, as usual, didn't help matters). An updated run (minus the Evil Axe) will emphasize a different strategy in this stage and will save considerable time; up to 10k frames worth. Also, I've noticed other improvements here and there that should bring the total frame count down even lower. I'll have a legit, updated WIP up soon. I appreciate the encode, antd! EDIT: Huge update on the way! I have just cracked the precise calculation on how to manipulate enemy/A.I. battles. This update will be comprehensive and will include illustrated screenshots. Stay tuned!
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
Posted: 9/4/2013 3:40 AM
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feos
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Cheat codes can be really useful to test everything. In a real run you would figure out the best order to obtain items, and for that you need to test all routes with every item that can affect the progress. Having them all from start saves much testing effort. So that when you start the real run, you already know which to obtain first, and where to use it to save more time.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 9/4/2013 5:04 PM
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BigBoct
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Looking forward to your true WIP! Warsong was a favorite game of mine back in the days of KGen as my preferred Genesis emulator.
Previous Name: boct1584
Posted: 9/6/2013 4:39 PM
(Edited: 12/25/2015 3:48 AM)
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ars4326
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Posts: 706
Location: Missouri, USA
The latest WIP of Scenario 1, finishing 718 frames faster due to better manipulation and foregoing use of the 'all items' code: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1927771326/Warsong%20From%20Start%201.2.gmv Unfortunately, I've yet to "crack the code" in figuring out the exact method behind manipulating battle outcomes during Enemy and Ally phases. I've uncovered a couple RAM addresses of interest; however, they make little sense to me at this time. However, I have developed a method that has proven useful, in the meantime: MANIPULATION OF A.I. & ENEMY UNIT BATTLES During an enemy/ally unit's turn there are multiple opportunities to manipulate the RNG. These opportunities occur during the period when the unit moves in to attack and chooses its target, immediately before the battle phase. Simply put, I call this period a "cycle". Before every cycle there is a slightly glitched frame that acts as a visual precursor. These occur on the frame prior to a beginning cycle. Basically, they are the orange & blue unit commander orbs which are temporarily out of sync as the cursor moves upon the next acting unit. This 'cue frame' is a very useful placeholder for choosing a save state. Listed out, a typical frame cycle looks something like this, which I've color-coded and separated into rows based on general patterns: Frame Count: 5140-5620 F* F F F F (13) F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F CURSOR MOVEMENT F (9) F F F* F F F UNIT MOVEMENT F F F F F F F F F F F F* F TARGET CONFIRM F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F BATTLE BEGINS Red (lag) frames, obviously, do not allow any input from the player. Blue frames (white, in-game) allow input but make no noticeable difference to the RNG. Olive frames, upon pressing 'B', cause significant changes to the RNG. Not all cycles have manipulable frames in the same place. In fact, they often vary from one to the next. However, the olive frames I've labeled with an asterisk (*) indicate where they can reliably be found.
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
Posted: 9/7/2013 5:11 AM
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BigBoct
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Looks like you're really putting in the work for this one. Keep it up!
Previous Name: boct1584
Posted: 9/8/2013 1:51 PM
(Edited: 12/25/2015 3:46 AM)
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ars4326
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Latest WIP catches up to my previous stopping point, with a total savings of 27,837 frames! edit: This should be the correct link. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/157775815/Warsong%20From%20Start%201.2.gmv Better strategies in Scenario 2 (along with a shrewd exploit of a scripted enemy ambush) made for virtually zero level grinding this time around, saving over 6,900 frames. Scenario 3 went virtually the same, with slightly better optimization. The massive time saver, though, occurred in this stage:
Scenario 4: On the next update, I will tackle Scenario 5 and clash head-on with imperial leader Lance, and his regimen of forces. To give an idea of what I'm up against, here's a complete listing of combat participants.
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
Posted: 9/9/2013 9:32 PM
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Truncated
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Arcade TAS of 2023 Sega TASer of 2021 Sega TAS of 2021
ars4326 wrote:
Latest WIP catches up to my previous stopping point, with a total savings of 27,837 frames! http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/157775815
That is a lot of frames! Nice to see that you are beginning to get the hang of the RNG. The movie link though, gives me "Bad syntax" error. Not sure if you pasted it wrong or there is something wrong with microstorage.
Posted: 9/9/2013 9:59 PM
(Edited: 12/25/2015 3:45 AM)
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ars4326
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Posts: 706
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http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/12742137/Extended%201.2.gmv https://www.dropbox.com/s/xwfp9x3vuxchzuq/Warsong%20%28USA%29%20-%20Extended%201.2.gs7 (save state to Scenario 5) Thanks, Patashu!
Scenario 5:
This stage went well beyond my expectations as I managed to keep my total frame count under 150k. I also found an interesting little bug which I never noticed in the past. Minor spoiler: Baldarou's dialogue at the end of the stage plays out even if he dies during battle. Due to this, I've included a small speed/entertainment tradeoff to show this off. However, I haven't quite ironed out an appropriate timing for it. Should I leave each relevant dialogue box up for a shorter/longer period of time? Also, I've done some digging through RAM Search and finally uncovered some useful addresses. Here's what I have, so far: ADDRESS 00FF8005: RNG for determining battle outcomes (Player Phase). Number values cycle from 0 to 127, and then immediately from -128 to 0. 00FF8072: Changes value on frames where it's possible to manipulate battle outcomes by pressing 'B' (A.I./Enemy Phase). There's definitely more to it than this, but I haven't narrowed it all down yet.
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
Posted: 9/9/2013 10:39 PM
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Patashu
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ars4326 wrote:
Also, do you know of a reliable site where I can upload save states? My running time is getting to the point where even frame-skipping takes a while.
From best to worst: dehacked.2y.net/microstorage, dropbox, github, mediafire
My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu My twitch. I stream mostly shmups & rhythm games http://twitch.tv/patashu My youtube, again shmups and rhythm games and misc stuff: http://youtube.com/user/patashu
Posted: 9/10/2013 7:00 AM
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MrTickles
Joined: 12/11/2010
Posts: 60
This game is kind of monotonous, really. The really refined the formula in the sequels. Langrisser 2 might really be a better game choice. It's prettier, you get more than like 5 types of troops and the class change system makes actual sense. And over half of your leaders aren't worthless like in this game. The Playstation or Saturn version of this game is better too, really. Except that it's far easier.
Posted: 9/10/2013 12:48 PM
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BigBoct
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Can you upload savestates to your TASVideos userspace?
Previous Name: boct1584
Posted: 9/12/2013 5:03 PM
(Edited: 12/25/2015 3:44 AM)
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ars4326
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Scenario 6 finished. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/599650226/Warsong%201.2%20S6.gmv (movie file) https://www.dropbox.com/home?select=Warsong%20%28USA%29%20-%20Warsong%201.2%20S6.gs6 (savestate file)
Scenario 6:
This stage was my toughest to manipulate, yet. I quickly found out that under-leveled fighters don't fare so well against horseman. Despite all that, I managed to manipulate some cool sequences (including a super human-esque outing from Thorne). My only gripe here was attempting to re-manipulate the final sequence without Sabra tagging along. I figured that I would be able to generate another OHKO with Garrett on the Royal Soldier unit. However, after over 200 individual cycles through the RNG, I just wasn't able to repeat the same result. I'm excited about Scenario 7, where victory is dependent on dispatching an enemy commander just outside an A.I. controlled ally's position. I might be possible to manipulate something special, here!
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
Posted: 9/16/2013 1:23 AM
(Edited: 12/25/2015 3:43 AM)
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ars4326
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Joined: 12/8/2012
Posts: 706
Location: Missouri, USA
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/223009550/Warsong%201.2%20S7.gmv (movie file) https://www.dropbox.com/s/1zva4jugzdb4i4j/Warsong%20%28USA%29%20-%20Warsong%201.2%20S7.gs7 (save state link)
Scenario 7:
A considerably longer Scenario due to manipulating A.I. controlled Bayard and Momus' units (27), yet the results were well worth it! In a virtually impossible outcome on normal playthroughs, Bayard single-handedly fights off and defeats Momus and Co. by round 7. Lance must be fuming as he never gets to make a cameo this time around (normally appears in round 12). In the meantime, Sabra and Calais soak up XP and promote to Lord and Wizard, respectively. My long-term plan will be to have them at their final classes of Dragon Knight and Archmage (long range movement and the spell 'earthquake'). Scenario 8 will be a change of pace from the time-consuming length of 7 by featuring all routed enemy forces clustered together and directly near my commanders. I'll call it in advance and say...three rounds:)
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
Posted: 9/20/2013 8:37 PM
(Edited: 12/25/2015 3:43 AM)
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ars4326
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Posts: 706
Location: Missouri, USA
HUGE update. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1826064358/Warsong%201.2%20S11.gmv (movie file) https://www.dropbox.com/s/xtky2acup37hql5/Warsong%20%28USA%29%20-%20Warsong%201.2%20S8.gs8 (save state)
Scenario 8:
Admittedly, I fell short in my prior prediction of ending this one in three rounds...by beating it in two. Tiberon was in the perfect spot and only needed assistance from a rare soldier deployment to make it work. All in all, this was the shortest Scenario so far with a total of only 5100 frames.
Scenario 9:
Executing this one was a lot easier than I thought going into it. Calias was needed along the right flank in order to draw in the Serpent Commander and his units away from Garrett (lizardmen are deceptively tough while in water). This allowed Tiberon to pick off enemy fighters while Garrett safely trudged across. Lance shows up for trash talk just in time to see Garrett reach the end. No one cares what Lance thinks, not even his blue horse...
Scenario 10:
With the relative ease I had in the last two, this one had to be the pain in the ass. Dealing with Serpent Commanders, archers, and terrible luck with the RNG made for multiple attempts until I got one that was satisfactory. Calias's fireball proved very useful in softening up the Enemy Lord. And yes, I was completely unable to repeat Bayard's one-hit kill to the left-side Serpent Commander. The Magic Wand is obtained afterwards, a crucial item for time-attacking the upcoming Scenario 12.
Scenario 11:
Oftentimes when working on this TAS, I'm shocked in how fast certain Scenarios can be beaten with just a minimum of "forces & resources". S11 was no exception as Garrett went into full espionage mode while Calias held off a Grand Knight from advancing along the upper-right flank. Despite taking heavy damage, Grand Knights are refreshingly unable to scale walls, leaving Garrett relatively safe to sneak towards the goal. edit: Made a minor change in strategy, saving 250 frames. Instead of playing cat & mouse with the Grand Knight, Calais completes a "hail Mary pass" and prevails in a battle where both participants have just 1 hp. Tasworthy stuff! Next up is Scenario 12, the MILESTONE in Warsong's story arc. The showdown with Emperor Pythion (32/32 ATT/DEF!) approaches.
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
Posted: 9/24/2013 6:33 AM
(Edited: 12/25/2015 3:42 AM)
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ars4326
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Joined: 12/8/2012
Posts: 706
Location: Missouri, USA
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/435091998/Warsong%201.2%20S12.gmv (movie) https://www.dropbox.com/s/lqn8i2jd92az92t/Warsong%20%28USA%29%20-%20Warsong%201.2%20S12.gs9 (savestate)
Scenario 12:
Completing this one felt great due to the sheer difficulty I had with this stage as a young teenager. I recall the frustration I had dealing with high level Enemy Commanders, tons of Royal Soldiers, and Emperor Pythion perched on his mighty throne! For longtime fans of the game, this is the stage that you don't want to miss due to the speed in which it's completed (5 Turns) as well as the strategy involved. Everyone but Mina played a vital role this time around as, looking back, I'm now very thankful for deciding not to kill anyone off in the beginning (like Fire Emblem, Commanders are permanently gone once killed). Carleon was the MVP as his promotion to Knight came at the perfect time. Calias also become a powerhouse once hitting lvl 5, which expanded the range and effectiveness of her fireball spell (stacked with the Magic Wand). All in all, I'm very satisfied with how this one turned out. Coming up next are what I like to call the "monster hunting" Scenarios as Garret and Co. deal with the likes of Basilisks, Werewolves, and a rampaging Great Dragon. A familiar, former blue horse-riding face makes an unexpected appearance, as well. Stay tuned!
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
Posted: 9/26/2013 5:45 AM
(Edited: 12/25/2015 3:41 AM)
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ars4326
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Joined: 12/8/2012
Posts: 706
Location: Missouri, USA
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/280546634/Warsong%201.2%20S15.gmv (movie) https://www.dropbox.com/s/0x2hd7ghocsbyiw/Warsong%20%28USA%29%20-%20Warsong%201.2%20S15.gs0 (savestate)
Scenario 13
Similar to S12, I needed almost all Commanders--as well as a few hirelings--on hand to pull this one off as quickly as possible. Setting everyone up to be in just the right spot paid off as enemy Basilisks were never able to fire off their petrification attacks. And despite being out of range, Guardsmen are still extremely effective against slimes. Lance appears again and denounces the errors of his ways, joining hands alongside Garett's force. He comes on board as a beefed up Lvl 9 Dragon Knight, which will prove extremely useful in the upcoming stages.
Scenario 14
An easy, albeit frustration, XP farming stage as numerous restarts were made due to miniscule adjustments. Everyone was paired off into teams (Garett/Lance & Sabra/Calais), and sent off on either side to take out the werewolf hordes. Magic spells were used to soften them up as full-powered units are very, very tough to take out in one hit. Case in point, I was a tad disappointed near the end as I was completely unable to manipulate a one-shot kill to the last group of werewolves with Calais. This may or may not have been inconsequential as a fireball spell wiped them all out the next turn, though.
Scenario 15
This one came together remarkably quickly as I found out, while playtesting, what Efreet was capable of. I delayed releasing him for a turn so that he would go directly after the Great Dragon. Observing the spectacle at hand, Garett and Sabra decided to take a timeout and grab some popcorn. Wow...3/4 through with only 5 Scenarios left to go. Coming up next, Garett and Co. are hot on the Great Dragon's trail as they follow the fleeing Serpent into the annals of a monster-infested grotto. Stay tuned!
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
Posted: 9/29/2013 12:12 AM
(Edited: 12/25/2015 3:40 AM)
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ars4326
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Joined: 12/8/2012
Posts: 706
Location: Missouri, USA
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/196417750/Warsong%201.2%20S19.gmv (movie file) https://www.dropbox.com/s/dlqvnqaspr7d9ko/Warsong%20%28USA%29%20-%20Warsong%201.2%20S19.gs4 (save state)
Scenario 16
Another stage that went very well with little issue. I only had to strictly ensure Sabra had enough kills to reach lvl 10 by the stage's end. With 35 attack power, I was pleasantly surprised that Sabra was able to inflict the 6 damage needed to defeat the Great Dragon. My remaining challenge, commander-wise, is getting Garett promoted before the final battle.
Scenario 17
Back in the day, I always approached this map as if it were the battle for Middle-earth! Every commander (if able) deployed the max number of archers while I positioned my army within the lower valley to await the Wyvern onslaught. A page was taken out of the Spartan handbook as archers remained tightly circled and readied until the 'Persians' attacked us head-on. This time, however, called for a far simpler approach as Dragon Knights Lance & Sabra sped off from both sides to directly engage the enemy. Generating one-hit K.O.s without taking damage took much longer (around 3-5 seconds, at times), though it was a needed sacrifice to quickly finish the stage. I've noticed that flying units use a different formula for calculating taking damage as Lance (42 ATT/14 DEF; Evil Axe), logically, should have taken much more damage than Sabra (38 ATT/28 DEF; Warsong). Interesting.
Scenario 18 & 19
With only Sabra at my disposal (Lance leaves after S18 in the story), I wasted zero time in finishing these two goons. I held off in my original plan of promoting Calias to Arch Mage after realizing that Sabra could bypass walls without the use of earthquake. As a result, S18 & S19 were finished in just 3 turns, total; leading us into the game's final Scenario and showdown... This will be my last update before submitting my run (I'm saving S20 for the submission). I greatly appreciate the amount of views for such a relatively obscure game. I hope my posts kept everyone entertained as I strove to complete this TAS.
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
Posted: 12/25/2015 3:38 AM
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ars4326
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Location: Missouri, USA
I'm going back through Warsong again (the very 1st TAS I submitted here!) and have been amazed at the time saving gained, so far! Scenarios 1-4 have been re-done, with a total savings of 46,492 frames. Better tactics, optimization, and RNG manipulation, all around.
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
Posted: 1/1/2016 1:34 AM
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ars4326
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Well, I ended up finishing this one rather quickly! Having the original run as a base made the re-routing process much faster. [url=]Here's the submission[/url]!
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9