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Mega Man "No Glitch" TAS by McBobX in 20:35.03

Goals

  • Aims for fastest time possible
  • Takes damage to save time
  • Luck manipulation
  • Forgoes time saving glitches
  • Forgoes warps
  • Genre: Platform

Comments about this run

  • This is my first Mega Man run,and it is completed in 20min due to avoid any glitch in this game.It is,normaly,longer than the current published run by about 8min:12s.But, it's faster than the first published run by Morimoto that complete the game in 21min with some glitches
  • About the route.This run uses a different route by starring with Gutsman-->Elecman-->Iceman-->Fireman-->Cutman<-->Bombman-->Wily Stages.
I used this route for 3 reasons:
  • 1st:Mega Man can beat Gustman 2x faster than Elecman which gives 2HP damage
  • 2nd:Gutsman weapon is needed to get Magnet Beam (This is not a run with glitches)
  • 3rd:Beating Elecman using Gutsman weapon is more optimized than Mega Buster
I saw a WIP that started with Elecman stage,I think it is not a good start.
Each stage is completed in about 2min

"Enjoy The Run"

Nach: The audience response for this movie has been quite poor. These kinds of runs come of as being inconsistent and arbitrary in their goals, and never well received. Why just avoid some glitches and not others? Things which are intentional but can be extremely abused are not used, while things which are not intentional are.
If you want to create a different kind of Mega Man run, I recommend creating one which avoids the optional Magnet Beam item. It can be considered low% which is an official category on the site, and at the same time is only possible in a TAS, so it's special. Since so many abuses and glitches are tied to this item, it will also offer a very different experience and will stand out drastically in most levels compared to the existing branch.
Rejecting.

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Posted: 1/13/2014 12:59 PM
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supersonicjc
Joined: 5/27/2012
Posts: 70
Location: Wisconsin
im a little bit torn here the low glitch, lets face it everyone knows and almost all use the Pause Glitch, so that really isn't a glitch but more so a trick to make the gameplay go faster, not all of us know how to readily know how to pull off the guts block glitch, with that in mind im gonna go with MEH, also its worth to note I just watched a normal run on YT with only seeing the Pause glitch and that clocked in at 28 min, so its more a Meh to a no from me.
Posted: 1/13/2014 1:21 PM
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andypanther
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Joined: 6/30/2010
Posts: 1094
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
I personally don't think glitchless is a good goal for any game. There are exceptions to this, but only for games where it's very easy to define what is a glitch and what is not. These are very rare though. This TAS right here is much too arbitrary in my opinion, as it does use tricks that obviously look like glitches. I'm sorry, but I don't think this should be published
Current project: Gex 3 any% Paused: Gex 64 any% There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games.
Posted: 1/13/2014 1:46 PM
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Warp
Banned User, Former player
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
feos wrote:
Primarily, why would we want a run that avoids some time-saving strats?
I think that the main motivation is because since the beginning of time many people have expressed that it would be cool to see what it would like if the game were to be played "normally" by a perfect superhuman being. "Normally" meaning that it uses the intended route. However, if that's the intent, then no glitches should be used at all. (I have actually suggested in the past a "uses intended route" category under which runs of certain heavily-glitchable games could be published. I still think it could be a feasible idea. Of course this particular submission would probably not qualify.)
Posted: 1/13/2014 2:14 PM
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BigBoct
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Joined: 8/9/2007
Posts: 1692
Location: Tiffin/Republic, OH
Why would this run not qualify for your hypothetical category, Warp? From what I can tell (I've never played the original Megaman) it DOES use the intended routes throughout the game. Or do you just mean the other controversy around it? My thoughts on the run itself: You didn't break 1 million points. No vote. (Just kidding.) My actual thoughts: It was fun seeing the game played (mostly) as intended. I personally don't mind the label of "low-glitch," and I am of the opinion that the pause glitches are okay here. That having been said, as compared to some of the other Megaman TASes I've seen, I did notice a few inconsistencies. Most notably, not getting 50,000 bonuses on everything, and a few hits on the Wily 3 boss seemed slow. I do think this run is worthy of publication, however, and I WAS entertained, so voting Yes.
Previous Name: boct1584
Posted: 1/13/2014 2:22 PM
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feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11272
Location: RU
NES TAS of 2011
boct1584 wrote:
Why would this run not qualify for your hypothetical category, Warp? From what I can tell (I've never played the original Megaman) it DOES use the intended routes throughout the game. Or do you just mean the other controversy around it?
I think it's because such a category should receive much support to become a Moon and get its own branch. And not all games provide enough to get good feedback. I haven't yet seen how would megaman look without glitches at all, but I actually doubt there would be much to look at, at least within the NES series. Since SNES series have so much deeper gameplay in so many ways, they would likely be interesting indeed, but it would require really much effort. So my opinion is, any low glitch/glitchless category for NES megaman serioes won't fly. Some people did express will to see such a run, but there's just not enough of them, because overall it still looks sub average.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 1/13/2014 2:38 PM
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adelikat
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Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4739
Location: Tennessee
TASer of 2010 NES TASer of 2010 DS TASer of 2010 Arcade TAS of 2010 NES TASer of 2008 NES TAS of 2008 Funny TAS of 2008 TASer of 2007 NES TASer of 2007 Funny TAS of 2007
This type of run has been asked for, for about the past 7 years. I'm glad someone finally made it. About 7 years ago is when megaman TASes became so glitched that there isn't really any megaman gameplay left. It is a popular game and people actually wanted to see the game. However, once you remove the glitches and show the game. You show how mundane the TAS value is in normal gameplay. I found the movie's entertainment value mediocre and eventually predictable ("oh there's an enemy I bet he's going to run into it, and do the select trick. Yup, he did"). Constrast that to the glitch-full movie which is exciting, unexpected and one of the most popular TASes on the site. I found this movie lacking, and so I voted "no" because I was not sufficiently entertained.
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
Posted: 1/13/2014 3:31 PM
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thatguy
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Joined: 11/3/2013
Posts: 506
I guess on reflection part of what entertained me is that, having never played Megaman before, only watched TASes of it, seeing just how much of the game those TASes skipped past, because I'd never seen those parts of the game before. So I probably enjoyed it because it made me appreciate what is possibly already my favourite TAS even more. I agree with this category in principle, but whether this TAS deserves to be published... I'm not so sure, as it may not be as optimal as I had thought, on a run where extreme optimisation is really the only superhuman thing that can be done with it. It's certainly good gruefood at the very least.
Posted: 1/13/2014 3:31 PM
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Personman
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Joined: 4/20/2008
Posts: 465
I agree with everyone who is saying that for low glitch categories to be worthwhile, they need to very explicitly call out which glitches they are forgoing, and the author needs to provide a compelling explanation for why those glitches in particular add up to a category worth supporting. Or at least a run so amazing that everyone agrees. This doesn't seem to do that. I personally get basically no entertainment out of glitchless runs (I'd rather watch an RTA), so I'm abstaining from voting, since this obviously isn't for me.
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
Posted: 1/13/2014 9:51 PM
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graywords
Joined: 9/21/2011
Posts: 49
Location: San Antonio, TX
This run entertained me. I absolutely adore game-shattering glitch runs, but it was nice seeing the stages actually get played through for a change without DelayStageClears or scrolling glitches. Things seemed pretty optimized, though a couple of things stood out to my untrained eye, like the boss points not being manipulated to 50000 as others have pointed out. Not sure about category stuff, so I'll not comment on that.
--Graywords
Posted: 1/15/2014 9:47 AM
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FractalFusion
Editor, Skilled player (1939)
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 3247
Glitchy TAS of 2013 Gameboy TAS of 2013 PSX TASer of 2010
I watched the TAS, and it just doesn't seem optimized (the pause trick seems to kill a lot of momentum and is used in places where simple evasion would have probably been better). I also think that pause tricks and pulling Guts blocks out of nowhere shouldn't be abused in a "low glitch" version.
Posted: 1/15/2014 3:40 PM
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KusogeMan
Active player (434)
Joined: 2/5/2012
Posts: 1693
Location: Brasil
dont feel it avoids exploits enough
TAS i'm interested: megaman series: mmbn1 all chips, mmx3 any% psx glitched fighting games with speed goals in general
Posted: 1/16/2014 12:51 AM
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TASVideosGrue
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Location: The dark corners of the TASVideos server
om, nom, nom
Posted: 1/25/2014 2:57 AM
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NESAtlas
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Joined: 7/4/2010
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This might not have been published, but it works great for an atlas video: Link to video
http://youtube.com/NESAtlas
Posted: 1/25/2014 3:10 AM
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Bisqwit
Editor, Active player (296)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
Wow. I did not realize that such a movie has been posted here. For the record, I am working (very slowly) on a new glitch-less Mega Man movie. (I forget where exactly I am in the movie, it's been months since I last worked on it. I think I'm either in Gutsman fight or I already beat Gutsman and moved on. I think what happened is that I got somewhat sidetracked as I began disassembling Gutsman's AI to figure out an optimal algorithm to beat him.) Because it is difficult to draw line on what exactly constitutes a "glitch" and what does not, I made this chart of rules, which is even stricter than what most glitchless speedrunners would consider: 
No zipping whatsoever. This means:
        - Not using magnetbeam to cram Megaman into a wall or a ceiling
        - Not grabbing ladder from its top to teleport Megaman 24 pixels up in air
        - Not grabbing ladder from its _bottom_ to teleport Megaman 24 pixels up in ladder
        - Not grabbing ladder horizontally to teleport Megaman horizontally to ladder's center,
          not even a subpixel faster than if he would walk/jump there
        Any kind of technique that results in Megaman moving faster than he would
        normally walk / jump /climb in the present environment, is categorically banned.

No pause tricks:
        - No pausing to cancel hurt-animation
        - No pausing to repeat projectile damage to enemies
        - No pausing to move through enemies unharmed

Other assorted glitches:
        - No duplicating the Gutsman-throwable bricks
        - No frame-perfect landing+jumps while ground trembles in Gutsman battles to avoid losing balance

Tricks that are still used:
        - Luck manipulation
        - Jumping to cancel out standstill-walk delays
        - Jumping in ladder to cancel out shooting delay
        - Pausing to move before enemies move (as long as you're not moving through enemies)
This movie, however, even given its arbitrary choices, it is somewhat suboptimal. Oversize jumps appear in many places for instance. Megaman walks faster than he jumps. I strongly suspect no subpixel optimizations were done either. I would refuse this submission too. Thank you for trying, though.
Posted: 1/25/2014 4:30 AM
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Derakon
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
I don't understand your "No frame-perfect landing+jumps while ground trembles in Gutsman battles to avoid losing balance" rule, Bisqwit. The others seem plausible to me. Perhaps overstrict -- I doubt I'd mind ladder-grabbing, for example -- but plausible anyway.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Posted: 1/25/2014 4:39 AM
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Bisqwit
Editor, Active player (296)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
Derakon wrote:
I don't understand your "No frame-perfect landing+jumps while ground trembles in Gutsman battles to avoid losing balance" rule, Bisqwit.
I see it as an off-by-one error that if you land while the ground is trembling, you don't lose your control if you jump at the same frame you land. The effects of the tremors kick in 1 frame after you land. They're not checked the same frame when you land; possibly because the trembling check is situated in the code before the check that changes jumping status into standing status when Megaman collides with ground. A "nobody is going to notice that we did this shortcut in programming that technically brings incorrect behavior in certain corner cases" type bug, as are most bugs in general.
Posted: 1/25/2014 8:38 AM
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feos
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Joined: 4/17/2010
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NES TAS of 2011
So this is the "no programming oversight/hack" principle to its pedantic maximum. Because from reading the code one would be able to tell if something is intended or not. And even if developers deliberately allowed some hack, it still can be proven to be a hack, due to false assumptions it relies on. Sounds like a goal choice free of arbitrariness to me. I'd wish to see that TAS! The only thing that doesn't look perfect to me is ladders. It must be logical when Capcom programs ladders/ropes with bigger hitboxes that their sprites, which is what allows you to grab the ladder/rope with less casualties. You know, it's extremely annoying when you need to make nearly pixel perfect jumps just to get some intended physics to work. So I'd call ladder teleporting itself neither an oversight, nor a hack. However that screen-wrapping-ladder-thingy is definitely a glitch. Note: if it's not the hitbox that lasts for 24 pixels around the ladder, but only some magic point that disappears when you're closer to ladders, then yes, it's a bug.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 1/25/2014 2:04 PM
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Bisqwit
Editor, Active player (296)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
feos wrote:
The only thing that doesn't look perfect to me is ladders. It must be logical when Capcom programs ladders/ropes with bigger hitboxes that their sprites, which is what allows you to grab the ladder/rope with less casualties. You know, it's extremely annoying when you need to make nearly pixel perfect jumps just to get some intended physics to work. So I'd call ladder teleporting itself neither an oversight, nor a hack.
I agree. However, it is part of categorically forbidding any presence of zipping, which is simpler than making particular allowances to it.
Posted: 1/25/2014 5:44 PM
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Derakon
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
Bisqwit wrote:
Derakon wrote:
I don't understand your "No frame-perfect landing+jumps while ground trembles in Gutsman battles to avoid losing balance" rule, Bisqwit.
I see it as an off-by-one error that if you land while the ground is trembling, you don't lose your control if you jump at the same frame you land. The effects of the tremors kick in 1 frame after you land. They're not checked the same frame when you land; possibly because the trembling check is situated in the code before the check that changes jumping status into standing status when Megaman collides with ground. A "nobody is going to notice that we did this shortcut in programming that technically brings incorrect behavior in certain corner cases" type bug, as are most bugs in general.
Ahh, I see. I thought you were doing frame-perfect jumps around the ground trembling, not in it (i.e. you weren't landing while the ground was trembling). Your explanation makes sense. Frankly I think that any attempt to come up with firm rules about what a "no-glitch" run would be would be argued vociferously by some portion of the community here (c.f. me and feos respectfully disagreeing with you on ladders!). In other words, I don't think it's possible to avoid ambiguity over what is and isn't a glitch. So just go with what you think is best. I'm sure the result will be worth watching.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
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