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Posted: 12/6/2004 8:56 PM
Post subject: Nightmare on Elm Street
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Josh_the_FunkDOC
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH
Hey guys, I know I've got a bunch of other stuff to do yet, but I figured out a way to significantly improve this run. Basically, the order in which you have to do the first three levels is random. In playing this game normally, I managed exactly ONCE to get it where you can do them in left-to-right order and thus avoid any backtracking. However, since I started making a movie of this, I have not been able to duplicate it. I can easily make it so you can start with the house right in front of you, but I always have to skip ahead and do the third house next. Is there any way one could figure out exactly how this is determined, and whether or not one could also manipulate the future level order as well? Thanks, Josh.
but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice
Posted: 12/6/2004 9:58 PM
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-ziplock-
Former player
Joined: 9/26/2004
Posts: 217
Unfortunately, I discovered this way into the run (in the school as a matter of fact), but I was looking at 3+ minutes beating the then current run with it anyway, so I went ahead and submitted it. Manipulating the opening is definitely on my things to do list, however, the only way to get it down is to restart until you get the first house open, then beat the first house and continue on to the second, then hope that's open. Once the game starts, it determines the order, so there isn't any manipulation here. Once I get the opening down, though, I'll get to work and that alone should save about a minute.
Posted: 12/6/2004 10:53 PM
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Ferret_Warlord
Skilled player (1404)
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1977
Location: Making an escape
I'd like to see a four player run, but that might not be feasible.
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Posted: 12/6/2004 11:22 PM
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Josh_the_FunkDOC
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH
ziplock: Thanks for the info! Just to let you know, if you are going to make another version, there is quite a bit else to improve upon. I just uploaded an FCM to my filespace that has the first two levels and beats your times in them by around 4 seconds each. Take note especially of the boss battles, and also of when I fall and jump down ledges. And I'm not sure about those two spiders guarding bones in 1-2...I avoid one and take damage from the other, but I'm sure one or the other has to be best for both of them. That's something worth looking into... Oh yes, and I do make one mistake in 2-2...I fall down to the very first bone instead of jumping to it as you did. You were right there, so keep it for the next movie. And FYI, I'm not making a serious run here, as I wouldn't like to steal your work. Just trying to show you some different stuff, that's all. =) Ferret: I wholeheartedly agree. The only way I could see this working is if you have multiple PSX/2 controllers, a multitap, and some way of using all of this on a computer. At least one person should use a keyboard, unless you can map the important hotkeys to the controllers. *shrug* Just trying to help a bit, Josh.
but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice
Posted: 12/6/2004 11:40 PM
Post subject: Re: Nightmare on Elm Street
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Emptyeye
Joined: 12/5/2004
Posts: 60
Josh the FunkDOC wrote:
Is there any way one could figure out exactly how this is determined, and whether or not one could also manipulate the future level order as well? Thanks, Josh.
Well, if you know NES ASM (I don't...I know for a fact Acmlm [Who did the Dragon Warrior videos amongst others] does, and Paulygon seems to as well..whether either of them would help you is, of course, another matter), the easiest way would likely be to just disassemble the ROM and find the randomization code. I'm probably just speaking the obvious here, but I figure any suggestion is better than none. As I said in another thread, I know exactly nothing about this sort of thing, but I find it hard to believe that the selection is truly random, despite what ziplock said. He says that it determines the order "once the game starts", but randomization is a computer is almost never truly random; the algorithm has to be based on something (Frame at which you start the game perhaps?). Figuring out what that something is is the problem here. Again, I'm likely not telling you anything you don't already know, but I figured I'd throw it out here anyway.
Emptyeye.com- Come for the music, stay for the blog.
Posted: 12/6/2004 11:57 PM
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Josh_the_FunkDOC
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH
Alrighty, thanks for the help. One thing I can say...pressing and holding Start for certain amounts of time after the title screen disappears does affect the level order. However, I tried a great many different combinations and could never find anything that gives the best level order. The FAQ for this game states that only the first three levels are random like this, but I would like to see definitive proof of that. In both published movies, after the first three levels, the player goes all the way to the rightmost level and works backwards from there...if there was a way to start earlier that would be awesome. -Josh
but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice
Posted: 12/7/2004 6:55 PM
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-ziplock-
Former player
Joined: 9/26/2004
Posts: 217
I should have worded it differently - the order is determined once you have pressed start to begin the game, not when the machine is powered on. The only thing that changes is the order of the first three houses. After that, it's on to the junkyard and back from there. So, waiting a couple of frames then starting to get the first three houses in order is certainly better than mixing them up as I did, but without dissecting something I don't know the inner workings of, the only way to really check is to beat that first house and see if the second's open after that. Yet, perhaps I'm way wrong and the second house opens depending on something you do in the first, but I don't think so, as I've gone back in my run several times to change something and the order of the houses didn't change. As for the spiders, can't you drop on top of them and punch? It works pretty well, a bit better than waiting.
Posted: 12/8/2004 12:02 AM
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Josh_the_FunkDOC
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH
D'oh, why didn't I think of punching? Thanks for the suggestion! And also thanks for confirming that it is just the first three levels that can be manipulated... -Josh
but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice
Posted: 12/8/2004 6:02 AM
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Josh_the_FunkDOC
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH
For the hell of it, I decided to make a full run from the short movie I made. It's up on my filespace and 1:21 faster than the current movie. 23 of those seconds came from getting a better level order (though still not the best), the rest is all improvements to the levels themselves (bosses, mainly, though I do make better movements elsewhere as well). And ziplock, I won't submit this to your site unless you REALLY want me to. As I mentioned before, this is just a little something to help you out. -Josh
but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice
Posted: 12/8/2004 9:05 AM
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-ziplock-
Former player
Joined: 9/26/2004
Posts: 217
SUBMIT IT! OMG, why wouldn't you?
Posted: 12/17/2004 1:51 PM
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-ziplock-
Former player
Joined: 9/26/2004
Posts: 217
Not gonna submit it here? Or are you waiting for an improvement from my end? (Oh, it's on!)
Posted: 12/17/2004 3:28 PM
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Josh_the_FunkDOC
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH
You bet! I'm waiting for that 4-player run actually, that is going to be so awesome... -Josh
but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice
Posted: 12/18/2004 10:56 AM
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-ziplock-
Former player
Joined: 9/26/2004
Posts: 217
ugh - my fingers hurt already.
Posted: 4/19/2006 12:36 AM
Post subject: Nigthmare on Elm street - 4 player Remake
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chupapi
Former player
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 77
This is the run of the first level, y saw a huge difference from the old version, the lag really killed the action, comments and advices are welcome. Movie file: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1033/Nightmare%20On%20Elm%20Street%2C%20A%20%28U%29.fcm
Posted: 4/19/2006 12:41 AM
(Edited: 4/19/2006 12:47 AM)
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OgreSlayeR
Former player
Joined: 7/12/2004
Posts: 524
Location: USA
It looks a lot better! I'm really surprised you could enter the first house like that. The game is pretty random in which house you can enter first and whatnot. Edit: I can't think of anything that would help you now so I'll just say I admire your persistence. Edit2: If you (somehow) manage to visit the levels in left-right order, get rid of as much lag as you can, and dominate the bosses, you should be significantly faster than the 1 player movie.
Working on: Command and Conquer PSX Nod Campaign
Posted: 4/19/2006 12:43 AM
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Bag_of_Magic_Food
He/Him
Active player (278)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
Did you read through this topic? http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1500
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Posted: 4/19/2006 1:05 AM
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chupapi
Former player
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 77
Bag of Magic Food wrote:
Did you read through this topic? http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1500
now i did.
Posted: 4/19/2006 1:29 AM
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Luke
Player (84)
Joined: 2/10/2006
Posts: 113
Location: US
Keep up the good work!
Use the force
Posted: 4/19/2006 4:00 AM
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Phil
Active player (410)
Joined: 3/16/2004
Posts: 2623
Location: America, Québec
If there's randomness from where is each level, I'd suggest to find the memory adresses. So your movie would be optimized.
Posted: 4/19/2006 9:01 PM
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chupapi
Former player
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 77
Phil wrote:
If there's randomness from where is each level, I'd suggest to find the memory adresses. So your movie would be optimized.
I don't understand the Hex editing yet, is there some dummy's guide or something?
Posted: 4/19/2006 9:03 PM
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LagDotCom
Joined: 3/7/2006
Posts: 720
Location: UK
That bit isn't hex-editing, it's viewing the contents of the cartridge and console memory. If you can find related values in memory it will help your run a lot. For example for mine I've found the exact X and Y positions of my character, which helps for positioning.
Voted NO for NO reason
Posted: 4/22/2006 11:49 PM
Post subject: NIghtmare on Elm Street single player
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architorture
Joined: 3/23/2006
Posts: 15
As laggy as the 4-player run is, I really enjoyed it. It forced me to pick up this game and try it out for myself. Unfortunately, I really don't know enough about it to play it with 1 player, let alone 4. Anyway, I figured the 1 player run could drastically be improved by just changing the order of the first 3 houses and killing the bosses faster, so I tried it out. Without much effort, I got the first three houses in order, and it appears that after the game is started, the order of the houses is selected. After that, you need to go to the junkyard and work your way back to the school. Here's the fcm that I started. I don't really like the way it's coming out, because, although I know it will be faster than the currently published run, I think it could still be improved upon. I'm still trying to nail down this contra run, so I really don't have time. This is open for anyone who wants to try the easily improvable run, but has a hard time getting the first three houses down. I've played through it many times after the start of the game, and every time so far, the first three houses are in order. And I hope this helps the 4 player run get the houses in order too (not too familiar with the programming side of the games, I'm afraid). http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1057/noes.fcm%5B1%5D
Posted: 5/1/2006 7:56 PM
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chupapi
Former player
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 77
Thanks a lot for this one! it will save a great amount of time while creating the TAS and upgrading it. I have copied the moves you used at the beggining of the game to give the best order to the houses, the problem i encountered is that Phil's PHP movie editor, just support 2 player movies, so, when i modify and download the movie, player three and four stop moving. im trying to edit the movie with tiny hexer, it seems a little bit confusing, but i hope ill figure it out soon. thanks again! Note: (my english maybe suck, so please be patient)
Posted: 5/6/2006 2:38 AM
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chupapi
Former player
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 77
Using architorture's help, i made the proper combination of keys to get the best house order, even so, there are moments where lag is just inevitable, because, bones, enemys and dream icons cause lag too, so i need to work as fast as possible to collect bones, kill monsters and survive. now i take damage to save time, and kill everything reachable and convenient for speed's sake. i really like the way the run is looking, i hope that this modifications, would help me to get this movie published. im thinking about creating a four player run on gauntlet 2, what do you think?
Posted: 5/6/2006 4:15 PM
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Truncated
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (969)
Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3107
Location: Sweden
Arcade TAS of 2023 Sega TASer of 2021 Sega TAS of 2021
Gauntlet 2 doesn't have an ending, I think, and as such is not a good idea for a speed run. If you manage to make a 4-player movie which is as good as the preview you posted at the top, I can almost guarantee that it will be published. More previews would be nice, too.
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