Post subject: Branch poll results (new guideline suggestion)
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Summarizing the results, in a chat manner. What is any%? It is some branch that is - relatively fast - relatively legit How can it be relative? It's either fastest possible or not. It is compared to the other branches, and if all of them are slower, this one is faster. It also depends on conditions. Each branch, if it's of the required quality, is fastest the author could do it. So there are 2 conditions that make it relative: 1) the target category and 2) the player's skill. There are also cases where 100% (or any other condition that is usually slower than any%) appears to be the fastest. No, it's clear and absolute. It's clear for some people, and not for others. And for those who find it clear, it always differs. Once you consider something that depends on people's opinions absolute, you would need to force it in some way, which would harm those opinions. After all, it has been the main goal of TASVideos - to make fastest possible runs. It hasn't. The goal has always been to make entertaining + optimized runs. And for the first 9 years, optimized but boring submissions were rejected, so entertainment was dominant. Only after Vault was added, boring speedruns started getting accepted too. Now both these goals are officially equal. Ok, then how can legitimacy be relative? It is all about conditions. There are conditions that can disqualify the run in some people's eyes. For example, some people can think using debug codes is legit, some can't. Some consider SRAM corruption legit, some don't. Looking at the time alone, one may feel NewGame+ runs are the fastest possible. But many people disagree. Legitimacy depends on conditions and on people's opinions on them. What is a game-breaking glitch? I don't get the meaning, it's undefinable. It is the example of whose legitimacy people can disagree about. It is some trick (bug, glitch, shortcut) a legit speedrun can use, by opinion of some, and that can't be part of a legit speedrun, by opinion of others. No matter what it is, people feel differently about its legitimacy. There is a thread where people were asked if they want some kind of a glitch be mentioned in the fastest existing branch (uses X glitch), or in the fastest one that avoids it (no X glitch). Each option got voted for by ~40% of people. It means, that they have some understanding of what must be mentioned in the branch. Both groups want it be mentioned somehow somewhere. So obviously, they can define it. They just half on the matter how exactly it should be done. Well, it all now appears to be relative (any%, fastest possible, goals, glitchiness). How can you build a guideline with so unreliable grounds? There is only one way. It is, to rely on statistics. If something is so rare it looks exceptional, it needs to be mentioned. If something is so common it looks default, it doesn't. If several different cases are used equally (more or less), they all need to be mentioned. That is the principle. And the guideline itself? Movie branches exist to tell the viewer what approach the player used while TASing the game. There can be 3 foundations an approach is build upon. 1) Something that the game directly suggests (from menu, for example). 2) Something the game just allows (may have some indication though). 3) Something the game shouldn't allow, but it does (an erroneous assumption, a bug). The use of these might need a label. To know if it does, we must answer a question: Is the applied approach so common that the opposite is an exception?
  • If it is that common, we don't label runs that do it the common way, and label runs that don't, if there are counterpart runs of the same game.
  • If it's not that common, we label each approach, if there are counterpart runs of the same game.
When assessing the range, something must be considered possible unless we are sure it is not. Obsoleted movies should count.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting. If TASing is meta-play, TASVideos Movie Rules are meta-meta-play!
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To identify the split between the legitimacy of runs: Some people want the fastest possible completion for the software in question. Some people want the fastest possible completion of the software using the game's actual mechanics as flawed as they may be. Consider it the difference between a really good Chess player, who may use moves that technically shouldn't be legal, and another who flips the board over and plays some other game on the reverse side of it.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
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Here's the list of all our movies that have more than one branch (huge thanks to Ilari). http://pastebin.com/vsZ8UtrF The plan: apply the guideline. Spot cases where some rare condition is used, and a new branch is made out of that. If that condition is used the same way in some other games, but is still very rare, each run that uses it for a different branch must be labeled. If it's a "game-breaking glitch", the label must be "X glitch". If the rare condition is still used in most runs of some game (like BLJ in SM64), the run that avoids it should be 'no X". If there are 2 common ways to apply some condition (warps/warpless, 1 player/2 players), both need a label. Blank branch should only be used for runs without counterparts and runs that don't apply some branch conditions the other branches apply. Like, if there are branches for using "X technique", "Y glitch", "Z% completion" and some branch that does neither and nothing additional, it is left blank. If it uses something those don't use, it needs a label too. Blank branch is not the indication of any%. This way, SMB in 04:57.31 is labeled "warps", because it's a common feature. SM64 in 05:02.25 is "0 stars", because it's unique over the rest runs of it. SM64 in 42:58.52 is "70 stars, no BLJ", because it's unique by avoiding BLJ. Super Metroid in 38:41.52 has no label, because it's a "neither of the rest and nothing additional" condition. Super Metroid in 39:15.3, however, is "ingame time", because it's "neither of the rest, but some additional goal". Battletoads in 00:56.76 is "game end glitch", because it's a glitch, it's rarely used, and it breaks a dramatical amount if time. Other glitch types can be "save glitch", "warp glitch", and more, if can be abstracted. If the glitch is unique and hard to describe, a new name for it must be invented (X-Ray glitch, box glitch).
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting. If TASing is meta-play, TASVideos Movie Rules are meta-meta-play!
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I really, really don't like the fact that you want to label warped runs "warps". I mean, 2 players isn't a big speed/entertainement tradeoff (it's even faster than 1 player sometimes), but warpless is definitively one. And it's easy to understand that, if there is a warpless run, and a faster run, this one uses warps.
I problably made mistakes, sorry for my bad English, I'm French :v
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You don't like it because "warps" is any%? But we retired any%. Blank branch isn't any%, because any% is relative and subjective. Read here on why marking the fastest possible branch isn't the best option.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting. If TASing is meta-play, TASVideos Movie Rules are meta-meta-play!
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I would suggest that Super Metroid (and other cases where there are so many branches) avoid having a run unlabeled as it can cause confusion. What does the unlabeled run lack? You have to look at 7 other runs to determine this. When faced with potential confusion, perhaps all branches should be labeled.
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The problem with labeling the run that uses "neither of those, and nothing else" is that there's nothing to put into its label.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting. If TASing is meta-play, TASVideos Movie Rules are meta-meta-play!
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"realtime" ? (as opopsed to its counterpart - "ingame timer")
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For this game it can work. But realtime is actually our "so common it's default" condition. All the rest SM runs are also "realtime", so it's not unique over them in that.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting. If TASing is meta-play, TASVideos Movie Rules are meta-meta-play!
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"Fastest category" is subjective when people can think that the run isn't "legit" (like when heavy glitches or memory corruption are used). I saw a lot of people saying in YT comments "cool but you shouldn't have used glitches". I never saw anyone saying "cool but you shouldn't have used warps".
I problably made mistakes, sorry for my bad English, I'm French :v
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Eszik: that's correct, but why should we highlight any% by dropping the label in some cases, and not in others? When it's clear? Clear is as well relative (as my first post tells). For some people it's never clear enough.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting. If TASing is meta-play, TASVideos Movie Rules are meta-meta-play!
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feos wrote:
For this game it can work. But realtime is actually our "so common it's default" condition. All the rest SM runs are also "realtime", so it's not unique over them in that.
Right, I'm not suggesting any rule incorporate "realtime". I am saying that the guidelines should allow the labeling of the "unlabeled" run for the purpose of reducing confusion.
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adelikat wrote:
feos wrote:
For this game it can work. But realtime is actually our "so common it's default" condition. All the rest SM runs are also "realtime", so it's not unique over them in that.
Right, I'm not suggesting any rule incorporate "realtime". I am saying that the guidelines should allow the labeling of the "unlabeled" run for the purpose of reducing confusion.
Confusion will always be there. Having not-intuitive labels uses to cause it instead. And as we already succeeded, we can tell in the description what exactly is being avoided.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting. If TASing is meta-play, TASVideos Movie Rules are meta-meta-play!
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adelikat wrote:
feos wrote:
For this game it can work. But realtime is actually our "so common it's default" condition. All the rest SM runs are also "realtime", so it's not unique over them in that.
Right, I'm not suggesting any rule incorporate "realtime". I am saying that the guidelines should allow the labeling of the "unlabeled" run for the purpose of reducing confusion.
I'm also for this kind of label when there are many runs of the same game, and for the same reason, avoiding confusion. "So common it's default"... I was considering something like a "default run" label, but that's still not perfect in my opinion. I thought about "default", "basic", "classic", etc... All kind of labels, but they don't sound good enough. It has to tell that the run isn't doing something too extraordinary (compared to the others), and is the one to watch when looking for the "more normal" run of the bunch.
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That's the point. "default", "basic", "classic" are all traditional here. They are so common we aren't mentioning them. Remember how "aims for fastest time" category got retired? I'm sure it only takes people to understand that blank branch means "average", not any%, and all the rest just clicks. Because otherwise we would have to come up with all sorts of silly looking names as happened after retiring "glitched" the wrong way.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting. If TASing is meta-play, TASVideos Movie Rules are meta-meta-play!
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This is what it is called guys. A trunk! http://tasvideos.org/JudgeGuidelines.html#Branches Discuss.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting. If TASing is meta-play, TASVideos Movie Rules are meta-meta-play!
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I didn't understand it at first, but then I thought about its connection to branches, and it makes a lot of sense now. The "fastest completion" run is the main one that all of the other ones "branch" off of, like a tree...that's perfect! And I really like the clear definitions in that whole section of the Judge Guidelines.
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Trunk is not the fastest completion, but a run that doesn't have any special goals. Whatever goal is special is judged by the statistics. If some approach is only used in 1 run, and in 4 it's avoided, it's special, and needs a label. If it's used in 3, and 2 avoid it, neither is default. Super Metroid perfectly tells how it is supposed to work.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting. If TASing is meta-play, TASVideos Movie Rules are meta-meta-play!
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Renamed most of formerly "glitched" and "no foo glitch" runs without problems, but what about pokemons and final fantasy 4? http://tasvideos.org/movies.cgi?id=1840,950,2457 http://tasvideos.org/movies.cgi?id=2543,1149 FF4 is overall glitched to death, but what's the main thing that makes it so much faster? How it corrupts the memory? And pokemons, what is the exact set of movies that are considered one game? Only the ones I linked? How many of them use/avoid save corruption and glitched warps? What is the traditional completion type?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting. If TASing is meta-play, TASVideos Movie Rules are meta-meta-play!
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feos wrote:
Renamed most of formerly "glitched" and "no foo glitch" runs without problems, but what about pokemons and final fantasy 4? http://tasvideos.org/movies.cgi?id=1840,950,2457 http://tasvideos.org/movies.cgi?id=2543,1149 FF4 is overall glitched to death, but what's the main thing that makes it so much faster? How it corrupts the memory? And pokemons, what is the exact set of movies that are considered one game? Only the ones I linked? How many of them use/avoid save corruption and glitched warps? What is the traditional completion type?
So I can at the very least talk about the Pokemon games: The additional movies to be bunched up under the same game umbrella are #3894: FractalFusion's GBC Pokémon: Red/Green/Blue/Yellow Version "Executes Arbitrary Code" in 03:14.15 and #3256: p4wn3r's GBC Pokémon Yellow in 01:09.63. The differences in the movies: - #3256: p4wn3r's GBC Pokémon Yellow in 01:09.63 is the absolute fastest movie. It uses a combination of save corruption and memory corruption to warp straight to the end. - #4064: MrWint's GB Pokémon: Blue Version in 28:07.28 forgoes save corruption, the key cog that allows you to complete the game in less than a minute ingame time, but still uses memory corruption and other glitches to complete the game abnormally fast. - #1671: primorial#soup's SGB Pokémon Blue in 1:18:58.78 forgoes both save corruption and memory corruption to offer an alternate movie that resembles the closest of any non-obsoleted movie to intended gameplay. It does still use plenty of glitches (including a walk-through-walls glitch) to skip a good chunk of gameplay, however. - #3203: p4wn3r, Mukki's SGB Pokémon Blue "Gotta Catch 'Em All!" in 3:20:46.17 uses pretty much the same restrictions as the above movie, though it does corrupt saves slightly to duplicate Pokemon, but obtains all 151 Pokemon in the Pokedex (through means not involving directly glitching/corrupting any entries in) en route to beating the game. - #3894: FractalFusion's GBC Pokémon: Red/Green/Blue/Yellow Version "Executes Arbitrary Code" in 03:14.15 is an arbitrary code execution playaround.
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Thanks. Then, I guess, all movies but 2 should keep the current labels. These 2 are: [2457] GB Pokémon: Blue Version "warp glitch" by MrWint in 28:07.28 and [950] SGB Pokémon: Blue Version "trainer escape glitch" by primorial#soup in 1:18:58.78. Primorial#soup's run avoids both approaches that cut the time the glitched way, and it doesn't have any regular goals that could increase the time, right? Sounds like "" to me (blank label, trunk, traditional completion). MrWint likely should be "warp glitch". p4wn3r's run should either remain "SRAM glitch", or become "game end glitch", not sure about the best system to apply these 2.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting. If TASing is meta-play, TASVideos Movie Rules are meta-meta-play!
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feos wrote:
Primorial#soup's run avoids both approaches that cut the time the glitched way, and it doesn't have any regular goals that could increase the time, right? Sounds like "" to me (blank label, trunk, traditional completion).
Agreed, that sounds like the best movie for blank label/trunk.
feos wrote:
MrWint likely should be "warp glitch". p4wn3r's run should either remain "SRAM glitch", or become "game end glitch", not sure about the best system to apply these 2.
Yes, "warp glitch" because it warps to the intended entrance to the Hall of Fame room instead of ending the game instantly. And I think "SRAM glitch" sounds better for p4wn3r's run specifically, but I can also see the argument for keeping things simple and calling it "game end glitch" to fit in with similar movies.
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From here:
jlun2 wrote:
feos wrote:
jlun2 wrote:
Uh..."game end glitch"? All this run does is clip to the end. >.>
Exactly. EDIT: well, maybe this one should be "warp glitch" since it doesn't jump to the ending directly.
jlun2 wrote:
[2084] GB The Addams Family "warp glitch" by NitroGenesis in 01:35.78 and yet that isn't labelled as such. Why? Is it because it's vaulted? Or is it because it warps to the last boss rather than the credits?
Y U overcomplicate? It's because I'm unaware of some runs that skip to end or warp to near the end. If you know more, tell.
Huh. I wonder if a run of that game would ever have a "warpless" TAS, given how crap it is and also being an unvaultable goal. Which also makes me wonder if they even need that tag.
In other words, if a game is basically crap and extending it longer would just make it crap, would a TAS that uses a warp glitch need the tag since chances are, unless a judge made a mistake, the glitchless TAS would never be accepted since it's an unvaultable goal along with being unentertaining?
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Branches showcase approaches. Approaches can be abstracted out of huge amount of examples. Using "warp glitch" is an approach, and as long as it differs from the regular completion, it needs a label. If it's fastest possible (any%) or full completion (100%) it can be vaulted. All other branches only exist in Moons. Labels have little relation to tiers. What is a regular completion is explained in the guidelines.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting. If TASing is meta-play, TASVideos Movie Rules are meta-meta-play!
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feos wrote:
Branches showcase approaches. Approaches can be abstracted out of huge amount of examples. Using "warp glitch" is an approach, and as long as it differs from the regular completion, it needs a label. If it's fastest possible (any%) or full completion (100%) it can be vaulted. All other branches only exist in Moons. Labels have little relation to tiers. What is a regular completion is explained in the guidelines.
I know, but since an any% of a "glitchless"/warpless TAS for certain bad games would most likely be rejected (due to being unvaultable and also boring), does it really need that branch? Because it led me to thinking there's a warpless TAS of it at first glance and could potentially mislead other viewers as well.