Joined: 3/2/2010
Posts: 2174
Location: A little to the left of nowhere (Sweden)
Tompa wrote:
And because TASvideos already accepted, and published, an OoT run with Japanese text in the past, this shouldn't really be any different.
That was a very special case though, the TAS was already done and he was encouraged to post it here, it would have been soulless to reject it for being the J ROM. It was explained in the thread of that submission.
I'm not even gonna submit it here unless that rule is changed, period. I don't want my run to be another "exception". Language in a TAS doesn't matter, fastest is always better.
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Alright cool see you in next life.
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
I'm quite content with the japanese/english rule as it currently stands (save perhaps with some interactions with fan-translations), I don't see why it would be such a problem.
TASing is, after all, a form of art designed to be appreciated by the viewer. Why not keep it to the version more people can appreciate?
It's not like it actually counts against you time-wise, every consideration of "is this run faster/slower" has always taken into account JP/NA/EU time differences. So using the JP version purely because of quicker text speed serves only to alienate a portion of your audience for the only purpose that you personally want to see a lower frame count (that, again, doesn't actually count against the run!)
First a movie gets submitted, and ends up accepted despite breaking rules other runs have been rejected for. And when I vote less than spectacularly on this movie, I become the victim of harassment and threats.
Yay, favoritism.
There are people on this site who do not only watch OoT TASes like you. So this rule keeps the entertaining factor up for games which still have a story to follow.
Actually, I agree that the non-English version should be used when the savings amount to many minutes as is the case here. I think I've never enjoyed reading a dialogue in a TAS.
OoT though is done so out of order that the story doesn't make sense anymore so there is no need to be able to follow it in my opinion.
I agree. The any% run's publication text says the Japanese ROM is faster by 6.5 minutes, and that's just for any%. Using the Japanese ROM would save so many frames in an all quests run, and I think it should be used.
I hate Zelda, though I have to agree here about the slight rule change, because a J version of Mario 64 would be faster as well and I'd like it. Everyone knows the plot by now, there's no point in Peach saying she baked a cake for Mario every time.
Depends on the game, a game like this where the text isn't really relevant and the entertainment value comes from the actual run, I don't mind. But something like an RPG, I really hate now knowing what the hell is going on.
Exactly. You cant just make exceptions for certain games that would make it completle unfair for other TASers who have to use the U version. I cant even watch a TAS of a J RPG because I have absolutly no idea whats going on.
I don't really care about the text in OoT since - as most of the viewers on TASVideos - I am quite familiar with the storyline, gameplay, etc. But I think its very preposterous to make an exception for one game yet refuse it for another.
In Ocarina of Time, the 11+ minutes of time saved from switching to japanese version makes the video significantly more interesting. The story is broken so badly that the cutscenes don't make sense anyways unless you are already familiar with the game. In terms of entertainment, the "loss" of not having readable text is much less than the gain of the run being faster paced (remember, the J version is projected to cut off around 8-10% of the run).
In a JRPG, many people find the run less entertaining if they don't understand what is going on. In cases like that, it seems to fine to require the U rom.
We already have subjective voting before a TAS gets accepted. We don't need a hard and fast rule about what games are allowed exceptions and what aren't - let people decide if less cutscene is more entertaining than readable text or vice versa.
I've lurked for a while and been reading a lot of the comments, but have only just recently actually made a forum account, so I figure I'd put forth my opinion.
First off, yes, TASs are about entertainment, not pure speed. That being said, there are very basic rules already set in place, and I'll be a dick and quote them directly.
If it exists, use the (U) version of a ROM unless there is a good reason not to (as an example a shortcut/trick which only works in a different version, or superior music).
Good reasons for J over U
A big time saving trick or glitch that isn't possible in U
Less in-game lag vs U
Marginal reasons
Better graphics
Gray area
Less fade-out lag J vs U
Bad reasons for J vs U
A shorter title screen
A shorter text
Abeshi's run that was published to this site was only (J) for a different reason. It was his primary language, not english. He didn't even plan to post it here, he was politely asked to, and so he did so. does he plan to post his next one here? maybe, but that doesn't mean anything now, since it hasn't happened yet, and that can be argued about when and if he publishes it. Because his reason of using the (J) version wasn't because of the shorter text, it was a non-issue, and even when it was beaten, a special note was made explaining that it was even faster than it looked due to text speed. If the next run is (J) and it is accepted, you can expect another similar note on it explaining that it's actually slower than it looks because of the faster text speed compared to (U).
on that subject I should note that I did a bit of research.
first off, votes alone don't get a movie published. a movie can have 100% yes votes, but if the judge/s feel that it shouldn't be accepted, it's not accepted. the voting process is simply something that those judges partly base their decisions on. Don't like that? the US elects presidents that way.
Now, I browsed Abeshi's publication thread for his movie that was accepted, and here's some of the notable quotes of the judges I could find and their reaction towards it (also, I'm basing "judge" off of the people in the judge group on the forums.)
DarkKobold:
I'm voting No, because it uses the (J) rom, for the exact reason the "Don't use the (J) rom" rule was created.
Yeah right. In case you missed it, part of the reason this got published is that no one believed your movie would ever come out. If you hadn't noticed, adelikat and others had been desperately trying to get the other movie off the site. There was the attempted 'grue obsoletion' which was rejected by a majority of the site. Then, they farmed THIS movie from a completely different site. Perhaps if there was any believe your mystical, wonderful perfect movie was going to happen before the year 2020, this movie would have been rejected. Really, if there is anyone you should 'blame' for this movie being on the site, its you. But, you are Mr. Perfect. I'm sure you'll continue your passive-aggressive 'protest' against this site, because YOU didn't get to obsolete a 2.5 hour movie.
Boo-friggin-hoo.
Baxter:
(Because of the huge time difference, the JPN version doesn't really matter, a more optimized TAS, even if the final time is longer in the (U) version, can obviously obsolete it.)
Adelikat:
2) If published a new run is still preferred to be a U ROM choice. Text has nothing to do with the improvements. Thus a U ROM can be a slower time than this provided that it is proven to be as a result of the text (which is on the author to prove).
3) A publication will not set a precedent for a J ROM for this movie or any other. Rather be an exception to the rule due to extreme circumstances.
These issues are non-debatable.
Also, people, please use some common sense.
I think your conclusion involves a misconception. For publication purposes, time gained by text speed is irrelevant.
You are making it sound like you wanted to do the J ROM this whole time but didn't because TASVideos would reject it. Is this true?
The majority of the OoT 'fans' would prefer a U ROM even if slower than a J ROM regardless. I'd recommend basing your ROM choice off them not what this website will or won't accept. In the long run, it will make you and the audience most happy.
Or perhaps you are using the J ROM for a second reason. But I would hope you wouldn't do a monumental amount of work on a ROM you don't think should be used and would disappoint your audience just as a protest against a decision made by our website.
mmbossman:
I find it very amusing and puzzling at the same time that so many people seem to have no comprehension of the idea of exceptions to rules. Particularly when this entire site is dedicated to finding ways to circumvent rules in games.
Well said Upthorn.
(here's a link to upthorn's post)
no other judges posted on the thread.
so in general, no matter the votes, if you publish a (J) run that is only chosen for the shorter text, it will very likely be declined. granted, there will be a long discussion, but accepting it would set an precedent, unlike Abeshi's run which was merely an exception to the rules due to extraneous circumstances.
there are no guarantees about any of this anyways, if a decent argument is placed for why the (J) rom should be accepted, it may very well be.
Now then, I'm going to go back and pull a word from the top of my post. "opinion". I'm not going to further argue my point, as my opinion will not change, and honestly doesn't matter in the long run. It's the judges you need to get to accept the publication, not the viewers.
Yeah, that's fine. I'm well aware of the rules. If they wanna keep them, it's cool. I don't like them so I just won't submit my run if they aren't changed to what I and many others in this topic consider more sensical.
Edit: Oh, I should also point out that I'm also breaking another "rule" the site has. The version of Mupen I'm using has resets, but it resets the entire emulator and not actually the ROM. I guess it's more equivalent to shutting the system off then turning it back on, than pressing the reset button. I remember people caring a lot about this silly difference a few years ago, and I'm sure some wonderful person would actually vote no based on it (XD).
Yeah, that's fine. I'm well aware of the rules. If they wanna keep them, it's cool. I don't like them so I just won't submit my run if they aren't changed to what I and many others in this topic consider more sensical.
Edit: Oh, I should also point out that I'm also breaking another "rule" the site has. The version of Mupen I'm using has resets, but it resets the entire emulator and not actually the ROM. I guess it's more equivalent to shutting the system off then turning it back on, than pressing the reset button. I remember people caring a lot about this silly difference a few years ago, and I'm sure some wonderful person would actually vote no based on it (XD).
wouldn't being able to turn on/off emulators be more realistic for a speed run anyways? and not only being restricted to resets?
I also think that the rules could be modified so that these games does not need "exceptions". does it matter what language the texts are in if you can only read them if you pause the emulator/video on the exact frame or else you couldn't even read it?
OoT is a bit of an edge case in the whole language thing, because a) everyone's played it and memorized the plot already, and b) the text scrolls. so. bloody. slowly. The site's not above making exceptions to the rules for edge cases.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
OoT is a bit of an edge case in the whole language thing, because everyone's played it and memorized the plot already.
That's not true at all, Derakon.
I could say the same thing for SM64 and it would also be false.
Why caring so much about getting the movie published? There are rules. If you don't follow them, don't call them "rules". You will still be able to watch the TAS on SL's channel (+ the fact that SL isn't dying to get the movie published).
I might sound too harsh here, but this site is in danger of fading to irrelevance with it's non-sense rules. Hopefully you all agree from SL's WIPs that his run is awesome and would contribute to the site if published. When the rules no longer protects or serves the site, that is the precise moment when they should be changed yo better fulfill their purpose. (Which they, in this case, obviously do not)
There are rules. If you don't follow them, don't call them "rules".
They're more what you'd call "guidelines". (sorry)
The judges have demonstrated the ability and inclination to ignore any and all rules when it suits them. As it should be. The alternative would be to try to rewrite the rules to cover every potential eventuality. That way lies madness.
And Synx, just because your favorite game is a contentious subject doesn't mean TASVideos is in danger of fading into obscurity. :p
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Oh, good, it's this debate again. We certainly haven't done this to death before.
Question: does any other game get this much crap about J vs U version?
I might sound too harsh here, but this site is in danger of fading to irrelevance with it's non-sense rules. Hopefully you all agree from SL's WIPs that his run is awesome and would contribute to the site if published. When the rules no longer protects or serves the site, that is the precise moment when they should be changed yo better fulfill their purpose. (Which they, in this case, obviously do not)
lol
hey guys some guy is doing a TAS that doesn't conform to the rules
clearly the site is at fault
In all seriousness, claiming that the site is fading into irrelevance because it won't bow to the arbitrary decision made by one person regarding one TAS is hilarious. Feel free to show us a more relevant site for TASes if you're going to make that kind of claim.
