Banned User
Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
So, any% route has major change now. RTS record is already 52:56, and that's without using Tektite Hover. There's probably some other things too that speed it up. I'm not sure how much tektite hover saves, but around 2 minutes I believe.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Joined: 3/17/2009
Posts: 496
Spider-Waffle wrote:
So, any% route has major change now. RTS record is already 52:56, and that's without using Tektite Hover. There's probably some other things too that speed it up. I'm not sure how much tektite hover saves, but around 2 minutes I believe.
link?
Joined: 12/31/2009
Posts: 174
Synx wrote:
I fear for the people of Hyrule if you guys leave Ganondorf free to terrorize the land! Anyways... I am looking forward to the all temples TAS. Is that still being released?
They aren't. The future Ganondorf didn't stand a chance against adult Link + Master Sword so present Ganondorf shouldn't have a chance either (unless he put on some weight sitting in his castle for those few years). I think the timeline would go: Link grabs Master Sword (he is already an adult so he shouldn't be pulled back into the future), tells Zelda the plan, Zelda becomes bait, Ganondorf takes the bait, Link comes up from behind and executes him, and disaster is averted permanently. I can't wait to see the route and tricks that get put into this run.
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Joined: 1/12/2007
Posts: 682
Synx wrote:
I fear for the people of Hyrule if you guys leave Ganondorf free to terrorize the land! Anyways... I am looking forward to the all temples TAS. Is that still being released?
Probably this weekend.
Experienced player (511)
Joined: 4/14/2009
Posts: 116
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSRrk4df5T4 Here is a sample of a run using the warp glitch. The TAS route would look a bit different, and most likely use tektite hover to steal rod (and also probably fight King Dodongo with the Master Sword). Note that this run is on the japanese version while the current TAS is on english, accounting for much of why the times are so close (along with some updated glitchs that a new any% would use anyways).
Banned User
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Posts: 1049
Not sure how much faster Tektite is than Lon Lon if you could it make it to KV before night after second Lon Lon. That would save 90s up to KV, it would turn night in mountain trail right away, but I'm not sure if that would matter, it might just be a few seconds delay somewhere waiting for it turn back to day. You can do an aqua slide on the first trip to lon lon from KV, not sure what else, it might be enough.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Joined: 11/2/2009
Posts: 44
Location: Chicago, IL
Spider-Waffle wrote:
Not sure how much faster Tektite is than Lon Lon if you could it make it to KV before night after second Lon Lon. That would save 90s up to KV, it would turn night in mountain trail right away, but I'm not sure if that would matter, it might just be a few seconds delay somewhere waiting for it turn back to day. You can do an aqua slide on the first trip to lon lon from KV, not sure what else, it might be enough. Also, I'm not sure if aqua slide in child section to market would mean more day time in adult or not. It seems you don't need to break the stick anywhere to skip owls either, so I think you can still use stick for 1 aqua slide to market in child section, making swordless way much faster even more.
you need the egg to hatch so waiting for day is sort of necessary using LonLon route
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CosmoZSR wrote:
you need the egg to hatch so waiting for day is sort of necessary using LonLon route
So is there anything else you might be able to do during this time that is done in non-time changing areas, like getting bugs/fish/rubbees, or even something like getting rubbees from direct pickup instead of a chest? And does child time transfer to adult or is it reset to a certain time?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
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Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 2202
Location: Killjoy
I tried to stop the discussion here, but it seems to have failed. I shifted the discussion of multi-categories to a topic in sites. This topic is for discussing strategies, and ideas for TASing this game, not the structure of this site. Take that discussion to the separate thread.
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Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656
So let's come back to discussing strategies for the actual new run. I created a route, that would skip all trading items and would be very entertaining to watch. Many problems occured while routing it, though, and each of them added a lot of extra time. I did some detailed timing (haven't timed the very last part of it yet) and it'll probably be around 50 seconds slower than doing traditional RBA and watching the Light Arrow Cutscene. Light Arrow Cutscene allows you to get Farore's Wind on B without getting rid of shiek to get child again. I simply share this route with you guys, because maybe someone finds an improvement or comes up with a badass for it. Just some little side note: When first reading through it, it may seem very very slow. But believe me, it is really close to obsoleting the RBA route and isn't that what we all want? Anyway, here is it: Child Section: - Pick up Sword - 50 Rupees, buy Shield and Stick - ESS Escape, Get Ocarina - Owl Skip, A-Slide to Kakariko - First Part of Cucco Collection, Cucco Dive into Well - Get Bombchus (pick up 99 R), Leave the Well - Finish Cucco Collection, Bottle - A-Slide to Hyrule Field (9 Chus) - Owl Skip, Water Slide to Market - Buy Hylian Shield, To Hyrule Castle (8 Chus) - Talk to Zelda, Lullaby Cutscene Skip (7 Chus) - DoT Skip Adult Part 1: - A-Slide to Kakariko (6 Chus) - A-Slide to Graveyard (5 Chus) - Hookshot, Shadow Early (4 Chus) - Get Hover Boots, Death Warp out (3 Chus) - Back to Kakariko, A-Slide to Death Mountain (2 Chus) - Enter Dodongo's Cavern, blow up wall (1 Chus) - Chu in Staircase room (0 Chus), Get Bomb Bag - Open Head, Bottle Switch Trick, Beat King Dodongo (14 B) - Death Warp out Adult Part 2: - Get Magic (9 B) - Enter Death Mountain Crater, Mega Flip to Goron City (8 B) - To Lost Woods (6 B) - Fill up Bombs, To Sacred Forest Meadow (19 B) - Minuet CS Skip (16B) - To Zora's River via Warp (11 B) - Enter Zora's Domain, OoB to Lake Hylia Warp - Hover to Pond (7 B), Steal Rod - Warp Forest Temple, Climb Vines to dim the B button - Poe CS Skip via Bottle Trick, Boss Key Skip - Beat Phantom Ganon with Stick on B, Medaillon Death Skip (5 B) - Death Warp to Temple of Time (4 B), Prelude CS Skip with Stick on B - Get Child, Get Adult again to get Farore's Wind on B - A-Slide your way to Dodongo's Cavern - Warp to Credits There are some controversies, though: Usually using Deku Stick on B as Adult Link freezes the game on N64. On GCN and Virtual Console you can use Deku Stick on B without any problems. Mupen freezes only using Jabo as the Graphic Plugin, other plugins allow using Stick B as well. Now there are 2 things to say about this: 1. Jabo allows you to get rid of the Pause delay without using the Mupen version, that has the Pause delay fixed. So without Jabo you can't use the Mupen-Reset-Version without having the Pause delay. That's why for the optimal route we'd need a new Mupen, that can reset and has no Pause delay at the same time. As there are already 2 Mupens and each of them can do one of them 2 things, combining them would do the job. 2. Some people say, that Stick on B as Adult shouldn't be allowed as it doesn't work on the original Ocarina of Time Version on N64. Both the GCN and VC version are official releases of OoT, though, so everybody has a different opinion on this issue. The console players on the one hand use Stick B in their runs, whereas Swordless Link for example said he'd never do a run using Stick B. Would be cool to hear some opinions on this from people here ;)
RachelB
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If you need to use B stick, you need to use a version it works on. It seems silly to me to abuse an emulation glitch just because it works in a different version.
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
That stick B works on Wii and GC, is also an "emulation glitch". There is no "version" stick B works on. Wii has the normal 1.2 rom and GC a slightly patched 1.2 rom. But as far as we can see this route is slower than the RBA route anyway, because we need an ocarina and that cutscene takes forever. So this discussion is useless.
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Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US
Emulator glitches should not be abused to make a Nintendo 64 run play like a VC run. Each Nintendo 64 Ocarina of Time TAS should (to the best of our knowledge) be representative of how the actual Nintendo 64 hardware would respond to the input.
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
Kirkq wrote:
Emulator glitches should not be abused to make a Nintendo 64 run play like a VC run. Each Nintendo 64 Ocarina of Time TAS should (to the best of our knowledge) be representative of how the actual Nintendo 64 hardware would respond to the input.
So by this logic it would be okay to use stick on B with the VC version in dolphin, but not with mupen? So this makes you use an emulator in an emulator............ Also it's not really an emulator glitch. It's just that the emulators can adress higher memory than the N64 could. Basically N64 crashing with deku stick on B is a bug that is fixed in the emulators. So it's the opposite of an emulator bug, it's an emulator fix. ;) Buuut like I said it's a really useless discussion, since it's slower anyway.
Player (208)
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Location: US
Yes, if you want to make a VC version TAS in Dolphin, you can do whatever you want that would be possible on that version. It's official Nintendo software running on official Nintendo hardware. Now whether or not a VC version run would get accepted based on a few small differences is another issue, which isn't really worth discussing right now. The emulator and the run itself should each attempt to be representative of the hardware. The emulator falls short sometimes, so the run shouldn't abuse it.
Experienced player (599)
Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656
As I said already: Because it works on GCN and VC I'd definitely do a run using stick B, if was faster. Just look at the route! What is cooler? Trading eggs and mushrooms and dropping some bugs on the way or using the most absurd and entertaining route ever to archive the quickest time ocarina of time has ever been beaten in? I guess we all know the answer.
Joined: 6/9/2011
Posts: 29
So, the warp trick route is slower for a tas-run, but for a non-tas it's faster? This is interesting, because i've seen Cosmo get 49:38 today in a ganonless run and it looked quite improvable. I'm not very familiar with OOT though, so i could be telling garbage information. Disregard this post if this is the case :s
Joined: 11/2/2009
Posts: 44
Location: Chicago, IL
IMO the TAS should be on Dolphin (VC version). No idea how well it runs though.
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Slowking wrote:
]So by this logic it would be okay to use stick on B with the VC version in dolphin, but not with mupen?
Well, then it would be a VC TAS, not an N64 TAS. Part of our whole mission statement is that the games can theoretically be played back on their respective console. We'd be going against that concept if we knew it wasn't actually possible. So I'd say Deku stick on B should not be used in mupen.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Joined: 3/17/2009
Posts: 496
MrGrunz wrote:
As I said already: Because it works on GCN and VC I'd definitely do a run using stick B, if was faster. Just look at the route! What is cooler? Trading eggs and mushrooms and dropping some bugs on the way or using the most absurd and entertaining route ever to archive the quickest time ocarina of time has ever been beaten in? I guess we all know the answer.
since nobody else is answering, I will give it a go. I would like to see whatever is the fastest possible way of beating the game on the actuall console. I would feel cheated if you used any trick that wouldn't be theoreticly possible on my own game/console which I bought so long ago. No matter the entertainment or the creativity of the tricks and route used in a run I would always prefer a faster run over the slower run. Just my 2 cents though.
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
DarkKobold wrote:
Slowking wrote:
]So by this logic it would be okay to use stick on B with the VC version in dolphin, but not with mupen?
Well, then it would be a VC TAS, not an N64 TAS. Part of our whole mission statement is that the games can theoretically be played back on their respective console. We'd be going against that concept if we knew it wasn't actually possible. So I'd say Deku stick on B should not be used in mupen.
Except in the end you won't see any difference except the "you'll need a classic controller text". Also nothing here is played on console, everything is played in an emulator. VC is played in an emulator, actually. Bottom line this trick is possible on console, with the exact same version of the game that can be used in mupen. It's just not possible on N64.
Experienced player (599)
Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656
Synx wrote:
MrGrunz wrote:
As I said already: Because it works on GCN and VC I'd definitely do a run using stick B, if was faster. Just look at the route! What is cooler? Trading eggs and mushrooms and dropping some bugs on the way or using the most absurd and entertaining route ever to archive the quickest time ocarina of time has ever been beaten in? I guess we all know the answer.
since nobody else is answering, I will give it a go. I would like to see whatever is the fastest possible way of beating the game on the actuall console. I would feel cheated if you used any trick that wouldn't be theoreticly possible on my own game/console which I bought so long ago. No matter the entertainment or the creativity of the tricks and route used in a run I would always prefer a faster run over the slower run. Just my 2 cents though.
This is not part of the debate. Of course the fastest run is always superior. We are more discussing about the situation, that a route using stick B might be quicker and at the same time ultra entertaining. Just to let you know, even if you would reject such a run: If the stick B route is faster, I'll do a run using that route. All console players use Stick B and don't care about the fact it doesn't work on N64, so why should I drop an amazing route, just because some people have different opinions on that issue. And something else to know: tasvideos wants the TASer to use the U rom, actually. Using U rom the stick B route would be the quickest route available. RBA route is only faster on J rom ;)
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
Sounds to me like the GC/Wii version uses an inaccurate imitation of the real behavior. So I have to question how legit abusing that bug is. I mean, sure both the N64 and GC versions of OoT are official releases, but one's more official than the other. Still, clearly everyone who's actually playing the game doesn't care about these issues (probably because most people are playing on GCs/Wiis instead of old and possibly-decrepit N64s). Bottom line is, there isn't a right answer.
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RachelB
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MrGrunz wrote:
All console players use Stick B and don't care about the fact it doesn't work on N64, so why should I drop an amazing route, just because some people have different opinions on that issue.
They don't care that it doesn't work on the n64, because they aren't playing on the n64. If you use the GC/VC version, whether it works on the n64 will also be irrelevant for you.
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
Derakon wrote:
Sounds to me like the GC/Wii version uses an inaccurate imitation of the real behavior.
Or they deliberatly fixed a bug the N64 has with OoT, where the game sometimes reads memory that is out of the N64s range. After all, why give the emulator more range than the N64 had, unless you want to prevent these kinds of crashes? Who knows what Nintendo was thinking. ;)