This is a pointless discussion.
If you can get the GC version working under Dolphin, by all means go ahead and TAS it.
Doing it under Mupen isn't allowed, though, for obvious reasons. :p
You guys were arguing that you can only use Stick on B, if it works on the original console of that version, so that TASvideos "number one doctrine" "has to be able to be done on the original console" is preserved.
This version is from the GC, can only be found on the GC, and stick B works on the GC. It's that simple.
Ofcourse you can make a complete 180 now. Wouldn't be the first time, but that makes you prettty big hypocrits...
You may know more about OoT than I do, but your opinion on a TAS of it is no more important than mine.
I can't see how his opinion wouldn't be more important. That's why we pick gurus on subject they're judging for judges whenever we can all throughout human society (I'm sure some animal societies too)
You mean to say if 11 people from an amazon tribe where shown the TAS and asked if they liked it and all said no, because it wasn't rainforesty enough, and 10 people who were gurus on such TAS all agreed it was the greatest TAS ever made, then we should not accept it because no one person's opinions matters more than another's with respect to accurate and relivent judging?
Is your opinion on what score a figure skater should get just as important as the figuring skating judges' opinions?
Is your opinion on economic policy just as important as Obama's or a world leading economist?
Is your opinion on academy awards just as important as a professional movie critics?
Is your opinion Video game movies just as important as a professional and video game movie critic?
Is your opinion on whether a TAS should be accepted just as important as someone is a guru on such TAS?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Let me bold the important words in your post there buddy.
Spider-Waffle wrote:
You may know more about OoT than I do, but your opinion on a TAS of it is no more important than mine.
I can't see how his opinion wouldn't be more important. That's why we pick gurus on subject they're judging for judges whenever we can all throughout human society (I'm sure some animal societies too)
You mean to say if 11 people from an amazon tribe where shown the TAS and asked if they liked it and all said no, because it wasn't rainforesty enough, and 10 people who were gurus on such TAS all agreed it was the greatest TAS ever made, then we should not accept it because no one person's opinions matters more than another's with respect to accurate and relivent judging?
Is your opinion on what score a figure skater should get just as important as the figuring skating judges' opinions?
Is your opinion on economic policy just as important as Obama's or a world leading economist?
Is your opinion on academy awards just as important as a professional movie critics?
Is your opinion Video game movies just as important as a professional and video game movie critic?
Is your opinion on whether a TAS should be accepted just as important as someone is a guru on such TAS?
The answer to all of your questions is: It depends. Opinions are funny like that. Subjective matter generally is.
If it works on GC and VC then why can't we put Mupen in a different skin as a GC or VC emulator if it is accurately functioning as one? Hell it might even be more accurate than dolphin.
Can't VC runs (not Wii) be accepted on this site? Why shouldn't they be?
What mission statements are we trying to uphold here exactly anyway? Why are we trying to uphold it, and is it worth upholding it every situation no matter the cost?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
It depends. Opinions are funny like that. Subjective matter generally is.
Depends on what? Also, my point isn't one of subjectivity, if it's of utilitarian society values. Our society functions largely on maximizing utility, and especially for certain things, weight of opinions is one of these. To maximize utility we should give most weight to the most informed opinions. Just like we should give the best flutes to the best flute players.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
If it works on GC and VC then why can't we put Mupen in a different skin as a GC or VC emulator if it is accurately functioning as one? Hell it might even be more accurate than dolphin.
Mupen is not a GC/wii emulator, and it makes no attempt to be.
Hell it might even be more accurate than dolphin.
No. Mupen emulates the GC version of oot completely wrong. It completely ignores half of the code that a real GC would be running.
Can't VC runs (not Wii) be accepted on this site? Why shouldn't they be?
When "VC" is defined as a rom dump that intentionally removes all parts of the rom that make it more difficult to tas? And then it abuses poor emulation in the name of being more accurate? No.
This version is from the GC, can only be found on the GC, and stick B works on the GC. It's that simple.
No it doesn't. B stick only works on the GC because of the code that you are conveniently stripping away.
Quote:
Can't VC runs (not Wii) be accepted on this site? Why shouldn't they be?
When "VC" is defined as a rom dump that intentionally removes all parts of the rom that make it more difficult to tas? And then it abuses poor emulation in the name of being more accurate? No.
Your first question is a clause, I don't get it.
Your next question isn't a question, but I think a attempt to connect an emulation accuracy with abusing poor emulation from a different console and straw manning the argument.
So you answer No, are you the person who decides this or are you just speaking from the impression you have a dis-proportionally entitled opinion?
If Nintendo gave us the code for their VC emulator and outfitted with all the TAS functionality possible and said "here, this should help you guys make some TASes", we wouldn't allow runs that used it here? If so, why not?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
If Nintendo gave us the code for their VC emulator and said here, this should you guys make some TASes, we wouldn't allow runs that used it here?
Nintendo's n64 emulator doesn't have rerecording support, or even save states, so i'm not sure how that would even work.
And even if it did, i'm still tempted to say no, because it's still working as a result of poor emulation. An n64 emulator not crashing when B stick is used is obviously not doing the same thing the original hardware would do. Official emulator or not, it does not work how it would on an n64. However, when a wii/gc emulator does not crash, it is doing exactly what it should, because that's what happens on the original hardware.
So you answer No, are you the person who decides this or are you just speaking from the impression you have a dis-proportionally entitled opinion?
Neither, i'm simply arguing my opinion, just like everyone else here.
If Nintendo gave us the code for their VC emulator and said here, this should you guys make some TASes, we wouldn't allow runs that used it here?
Nintendo's n64 emulator doesn't have rerecording support, or even save states, so i'm not sure how that would even work.
Read the Edited post, suppose it they added that?
Why are you belaboring the quesion? What values are you trying to upload by providing such opposition to stick on B? How are you serving the community?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
It depends. Opinions are funny like that. Subjective matter generally is.
Depends on what? Also, my point isn't one of subjectivity, if it's of utilitarian society values. Our society functions largely on maximizing utility, and especially for certain things, weight of opinions is one of these. To maximize utility we should give most weight to the most informed opinions. Just like we should give the best flutes to the best flute players.
... right. This is a website about video games (look up what games are for, btw), not a utilitarian society. Entertainment is just as important as speed. (in my opinion) Since entertainment is entirely subjective based on who you ask because not everyone likes the same thing...
You get the idea. I hope.
Why are you belaboring the quesion? What values are you trying to upload by providing such opposition to stick on B? How are you serving the community?
For the same reason i would argue against hacking a rom to instantly reach the credits. For the same reason i would argue against abusing any other emulation glitch that does not work on the original console. You want to do something that is 100% impossible on an n64, and i have a problem with that.
It depends. Opinions are funny like that. Subjective matter generally is.
Depends on what? Also, my point isn't one of subjectivity, if it's of utilitarian society values. Our society functions largely on maximizing utility, and especially for certain things, weight of opinions is one of these. To maximize utility we should give most weight to the most informed opinions. Just like we should give the best flutes to the best flute players.
... right. This is a website about video games (look up what games are for, btw), not a utilitarian society. Entertainment is just as important as speed. (in my opinion) Since entertainment is entirely subjective based on who you ask because not everyone likes the same thing...
You get the idea. I hope.
Why shouldn't we uphold utilitarian values? Even something like Farmville does to be more successful.
Figure Skating a is a game too, it weights people's opinion according to how informed the opinion is, this maximizes utility.
So by that logic then any pile should be accepted as long enough people find it entertaining. So if someone wants their TAS to be accepted they just need to get enough people who think it's entertaining to vote, no matter how much of a disgrace to this site and the contributors their TAS is. And the fact that it says "goal fastest real time" is of no importance.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Read the Edited post, suppose it they added that?
Why are you belaboring the quesion? What values are you trying to upload by providing such opposition to stick on B? How are you serving the community?
I expect he's trying to preserve the ideal that people should follow the rules.
As for your previous question, it depends how technical you want to get in your description, but it's a massive grey area right now because nobody has really given it any thought. If you emulate the Wii/GC versions, we have the nested emulator issue. Runs using nested emulators have been rejected on this site previously, so following that logic the Wii/GC versions wouldn't be accepted here at all...
However we can say that the VC/GC emulator could be considered part of the game on those platforms, so that you're technically no longer emulating an emulator. This would only make sense for the sake of actually having the runs up on the site though, and not in any techncial manner.
Make a thread about it in Sites and people can talk about it there, this isn't really the place for it.
So by that logic then any pile should be accepted as long enough people find it entertaining. So if someone wants their TAS to be accepted they just need to get enough people who think it's entertaining to vote, no matter how much of a disgrace to this site and the contributors their TAS is. And the fact that it says "goal fastest real time" is of no importance.
No. You're disregarding the other values this site adheres to. Speed and entertainment are both equally important. >_>
There's also the issue of optimisation.
Okay guys, I don't see how this is so complicated. OoT N64 and OoT VC are different games (shoutouts to angerfist). The sole difference between them is not just stick on B (among other things, there are lag, loading time, and slight control differences). Thus modifying mupen to allow stick on B would not even be attempting to "play VC on an easier emulator" it would be playing your own creation. If you want to do that and call it an OoT hack, go ahead, but that -would not be Ocarina of Time-, N64 version or VC version.
Why are you belaboring the quesion? What values are you trying to upload by providing such opposition to stick on B? How are you serving the community?
For the same reason i would argue against hacking a rom to instantly reach the credits. For the same reason i would argue against abusing any other emulation glitch that does not work on the original console. You want to do something that is 100% impossible on an n64, and i have a problem with that.
I can understand and respect that. But do you get that on VC and maybe GC actual hardware people use this in their RTSes? We're not trying to make a N64 TAS or publish a run as a N64 run, we're trying to make TAS of something people are already making RTS for, mupen can act as an emulator for such hardware, we want to make a run like the RTS and publish it under the same console category as the RTS. Currently Mupen is the best option to do this. No one here wants to make a N64 run that does stuff the N64 can't do. I think everyone here wants to see a GC/VC run like the RTS but TASed. We are trying to make that happen. Blinding upload values without realizing the actual consequences or what is actualy going to be done is not helping that happen.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Okay guys, I don't see how this is so complicated. OoT N64 and OoT VC are different games (shoutouts to angerfist). The sole difference between them is not just stick on B (among other things, there are lag, loading time, and slight control differences). Thus modifying mupen to allow stick on B would not even be attempting to "play VC on an easier emulator" it would be playing your own creation. If you want to do that and call it an OoT hack, go ahead, but that -would not be Ocarina of Time-, N64 version or VC version.
Right, but by that logic No game here is it's official console version because there are differences in emulator and console for every emulator, everyone run is a hack then. Mupen is the closest thing we got now.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
What you want and what the site stands for are apparently two completely different things. ;p
What exactly does the site stand for? No one's answered that.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
No one actually ever tested adelikat's theory. It desync'd on new PPU, which may or may NOT be more accurate. Actually, I believe I'm the only remaining person with a working NESBot. Scratch that, mine is currently in pieces. micro500, who is never around, is the only person who can test atm.
Actually, I'm starting to see slowking's point, but not in a way that will make him happy. If the VC 'version' really is just the OoT rom being emulated, then Deku stick on B should just be banned, outright. It is an emulation error. Does it matter if the emulation error is inside the Wii, which is also being emulated by dolphin?
I'll remind you, there was a Super Mario Land 2 run, as part of the first (iirc?) Dream Team Contest. It beat the game, but was determined to never work on actual hardware. That run was rejected. We strive to do the best run which, at least in theory, is playable on a console.
You pretty much nailed it here. Going into a run, basing it off a trick you 100% know will not work on a console is a far different from "might not sync when playing through an NESBot-type device."
Doesn't adelikat have a NESBot? He said he did at the time of HappyLee's run, but he didn't have the right cartridge. Or has something happened to his as well?
I hadn't seen the Super Mario Land 2 thread before. That seems different from this situation considering that glitch didn't work on any known version of this game. I'm also wondering if the currently published run on that game is possible on a console since it seems to use a similar glitch extensively.
I think it's apparent from the discussion here that there is no real analogue to this situation and no judicial precedent that has been set, unless we're missing something. The actions being performed are not foreign to the game; they are just only possible on certain versions. A submission including this glitch might have a similar response to Swordless's run currently on the workbench. If another outstanding run blurs site rules but overwhelmingly receives a positive response, how will it be dealt with?
An aspect of this conversation that feels unfair is that OoT TAS'ers could potentially be punished for the knowledge already gained about the game. There are probably many runs on this site that get into situations that would never be humanly possible on a console and, in those moments, perform glitches that aren't physically possible on the console. Imagine if the whole BA process took several frame perfect tricks to execute that no human would ever pull off? (OK, that might be a bad example as I'd be watching Cosmo stream that right now.)
I think my point is that if we have an accepted emulator and an accepted ROM for submitting runs of a game, perhaps we should be more accepting of the feats that are accomplished even if they're not possible on console. If any limits to this need to be established, maybe those should be based more on controls for entertainment reasons than anything else. I realize that this thinking may run counter to some of the site's ideals, but it's just a thought.
These are the values of TASvideos that we are trying to uphold:
"The end result of this process is simply a series of key-presses which may be performed on the original hardware."
While nearly every run published here fails this in technical sense, they come pretty close. I feel a run done on Mupen, published as VC or GC, does this as close as we can with our current emulators. It will give us series of key-presses which may be performed on the original hardware, that hardware being the VC or GC.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
