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Posted: 1/25/2005 12:55 AM
Post subject: Wizards & Warriors 3
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Ferret_Warlord
Skilled player (1404)
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1977
Location: Making an escape
Since we have the first two games in the trilogy done, we should cap it off with this one. I've played this a few years ago and downloaded it again just now, but I have never beaten it without emulator assistance (stupid level three wizard trial...). Thus, I'm fairly familiar with this game, but I don't feel like doing it myself because I don't know the ins and outs of it myself. Either way, here's some tricks I know about: 1. Obviously the treasures can be skipped since all they do is give the gurus reason to give advice. Nothing big. 2. People can be used as platforms. Has obvious uses. 3. The thief is the fastest, but has the worst jump, making him useful for long walks. The wizard is just the opposite, making him good for vertical ascents. The knight compromises these two. I can see the theif being used the most. 4. I believe the silver sword is not necessary. It kills no enemies you need killed and the final boss can just as easily be fought with the level one wizard. If this is true, one of the trials can be skipped. 5. You only need to grab 180 points at the beginning to purchase two keys. The points gained from the first trial should be enough to buy most, if not all the necassary keys. 6. The last hit delivered to the boss of a trial should be as close to the boss as possible, shortening the animation time. 7. Jumping slows you down, so jumps must be precise. Edit: 8. There are a series of secret rooms that drop you somewhere else when you leave. Shortcuts, maybe? /Edit. As I said, I'm not all that familiar with this game, just how it plays out. I don't know where exactly the places I need to go are and don't know the minimum numbers of keys needed. Edit: 15, not 13, keys seems to be what you need. /Edit Unfortunately this game is the most inert in the series, only providing challenge for the nine trials, the wizard ones being brutal (especially the third one). There aren't any real enemies, bosses aren't that involved, and requires a ton of backtracking. It also has the most uninteresting art direction. Needless to say, this run would be the most boring of the three unless some really neat glitch or trick is found. Still, I'd like to see it done, if just to see another trilogy be completed. Edit Redux: Then there's the issue of resetting the game. The game loads differently from power on after a soft reset once you're out of the legal mumbo-jumbo. I'd like to see a "Record from power on" option in FCEU if we're going to take this.
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Posted: 1/25/2005 5:34 PM
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Ferret_Warlord
Skilled player (1404)
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1977
Location: Making an escape
Actually, I'm coming pretty close to tackling this one. I've just played through it (assisted, of course), and have a good idea of the route. The annoying thing, though, is that although the game runs at 60 FPS, the input stream runs at 30, so input will only be accepted every other frame. That would make some of the precision stuff hard. Unfortunately, citizens don't seem to be that useful. Can't see any place where they'd help. And, after some testing, it would seem that resetting won't be an issue. I wasn't familiar with how FCE records stuff. ROUTE: Grab 200 points, buy two keys Get the bronze thief and complete the bronze theif trial Buy three more keys Enter underworld, grab bronze wizard and complete bronze wizard trial Change back to theif Enter city and buy ten keys Grab silver thief Go to beehive, change to wizard, take it out, change back to thief Enter castle, grab bronze knight and complete bronze knight trial Jump up, enter the door and go to silver thief trial; complete Fall down, grab gold thief, enter underworld, use knight to take head out, change to theif Grab silver wizard (fight with wizard), change to theif Use secret passage to get to silver wizard trial; complete and change back to theif Enter city and, go to castle and grab silver knight Fall to city change to wizard and pass through waterfall; change back to thief Enter house and change to knight once in the castle; complete trial and change to thief Go to invincible man, change to knight and take him out; change to theif and complete trial Save city girl Go to underworld, grab gold wizard (fighting with the wizard again); use passages to get to gold wizard trial and complete Use wizard to leave underworld, change to thief; go to castle, change to wizard, and save castle girl Fall back down and go to underworld; save underworld girl Fight dragon with wizard, grab jewel and change to thief; go to Malkil and beat game using wizard
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Posted: 1/25/2005 5:38 PM
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Walker_Boh
Former player
Joined: 4/16/2004
Posts: 1276
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
I tried this out of curiosity this morning and found it.. strange ;P That's the best word I have for describing it since I'm more familiar with Wizards & Warriors 1. Well, after having tested it I realized it is kinda hard (the first boss killed me a couple of times) so I hope you'll proceed with it.
/Walker Boh
Posted: 1/25/2005 9:32 PM
Post subject: Route
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scubed
Former player
Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 155
I played through the game again to get an idea of the route. Here is what I was thinking: 1) Get 200 gold 2) Buy 2 keys 3) Thief 1 Statue 4) Thief 1 Challenge 5) Buy 3 keys 6) Thief 2 Statue 7) Skip bee hive 8) Skip guard 9) Thief 2 Challenge 10) Thief 3 Statue 11) Skip bee hive 12) Town princess 13) Skip guard 14) Thief 3 Challenge 15) Knight 1 Statue 16) Knight 1 Challenge 17) Wizard 1 Statue 18) Wizard 1 Challenge 19) Use Knight 1 to destroy barrier to underground 20) Wizard 3 Statue 21) Wizard 3 Challenge 22) Fly up escape passage 23) Use Thief 3 speed to jump up other way avoiding bee hive 24) Fly up castle 25) Fly under guard 26) Rescue castle princess 27) Drop down, go to underground 28) Rescue underground princess 29) Fight dragon with Wizard 1 30) Open gate with 4 gems 31) Fight Malkil with Wizard 1 My first plan also had getting Knight 3, but you are right. He is useless. This plan skips: Wizard 2 Knight 2 Knight 3 (All worthless) To get past the bee hive, I found 2 ways: 1) Jump off the dog (usually involving getting hurt) 2) Scroll the screen so it is at the edge, and it might disappear To get past the town guard, I found 1 way: 1) Hit him, get stunned. While invincible, walk through him. I will post a movie showing this route later tonight. I know how to kill: Thief 1 Statue Wizard 1 Statue Wizard 3 Statue but, what I haven't figured out is how to kill the other statues efficiently. I think it might be faster just to get hit a lot. Does anyone here know? Also, is there any convenient way to dodge the asterisks for Malkil's 1st phase?
Posted: 1/26/2005 3:08 AM
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Ferret_Warlord
Skilled player (1404)
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1977
Location: Making an escape
Nice shortcuts. I was thinking about going after the city girl after the third thief trial because you'll come across the building on the way down soon after getting the skeleton key, and since level three is fastest, the ground between you and her would get covered the fastest. I'm also thinking that when fighting the thief statue guards, it may be best to let them jump once so they won't be in the air as much. For the bronze knight, you can slip in under his sword when he sticks it up in the air. It may be possible to deliver an attack and get out without getting hit. The same goes for when he points his sword towards the ground. The other two thieves will take a long time to fight. Let them go through their motions and get in close immediately when they're done, delivering as many attacks as possible. This may involve getting hit, but it's worth it. Remember, for the trial bosses, the final attack should be close enough so Kuros won't have to walk any to grab the statue. No more, no less, otherwise getting to the center of the screen will take longer. Dodging Malkil's attacks are a pain, I agree. Ducking and moving away from them seems to work best for me. I wonder if he can be taken down fast enough so he doesn't get to his second pattern... I'm interested in seeing this beehive shortcut. Can't seem to get it to work. Also, are you sure you can skip levels for the trials? I haven't tested this possibility.
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Posted: 1/26/2005 4:07 AM
Post subject: Attempt
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scubed
Former player
Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 155
I made a first attempt. This is a rough draft. Scroll down to Wizards and Warriors 3. http://lingcog.iit.edu/~scubed/hobby.xml I made another optimization. I get the castle princess right after the Knight 1, since there is no reason to return to the castle. I agree about the "weedy man" guy jumping. If you don't, you can only get 1 or 2 hits per jump, which wastes a lot of time. Enjoy.
Posted: 1/26/2005 5:03 AM
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Ferret_Warlord
Skilled player (1404)
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1977
Location: Making an escape
Not bad. Could stand to use some improvements, both stylistic and speedwise. I still think it'd be best to save the city girl after the skeleton key. I like how you did the thief guilds. Very fluent. Mine doesn't look as good (my attempt at dancing to the music failed :( ).
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Posted: 1/26/2005 6:44 AM
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Ferret_Warlord
Skilled player (1404)
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1977
Location: Making an escape
My current WIP: http://fast.filespace.org/Hermbletont/Wizards___Warriors_3_WIP.fcm It goes all the way up to the silver theif statue and leaves the building. The most noticeable difference is that I reset at a different place; I believe we should start where I did because it not only similuates the "power on" thing, but would also give Bisqwit some leeway to place his disclaimer without getting in the way of much of the action. Other differences so far: Different route on the initial points Better menus Minimized airtime Better bosses Sloppier theif guild :( I guess the race is on, scubed ;).
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Posted: 1/26/2005 1:54 PM
Post subject: Your movie
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scubed
Former player
Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 155
Thank you for sharing your movie. I am aware that I miss a lot of jumps and just plain go in the wrong direction at some points. That is because that is a rough draft movie, just to make sure that route works and see if there are any major problems. I am also aware of the reset to title screen instead of that very slow credits screen. For the actual movie, I will put an 82 to make sure that it starts properly. (I think that that is good practice in general.) (Especially after wizwar2, where I had a similar problem.) I like the "weedy man" guy falling straight on your dagger. Also, your money collecting order is better than mine. The levitation is amazingly slow. Do you know if any of the spots that I used it are possible to jump by? I am betting that using the thief or knight might be faster in some places.
Posted: 1/27/2005 4:00 AM
Post subject: Your movie
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scubed
Former player
Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 155
I tried again, taking my time and being careful about the jumping. Your movie is still ahead by about 200 frames by the time you beat the first "weedy man" guy. So, good job for that work in progress. I will try some more and see if I can start out well. I noticed that if you do a middle stab, the silver thief statue is more likely to dodge backwards, letting you kill him faster. Also, I think that you are right about getting the town princess with thief 3. Do you know how the momentum works when you stab? Sometimes it is kept, even though press B makes you stop, othertimes, I immediately lose it. I haven't quite figured it out yet.
Posted: 1/27/2005 5:12 AM
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Ferret_Warlord
Skilled player (1404)
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1977
Location: Making an escape
The bronze thief will dodge as well. Hmmm... Might have to start over there. In fact, I think all the statues will lean back. It has potential. I haven't quite figured out how the stabbing momentum works either; it seems very imprecise. What I do know is that the crowbar's hit box is very strange, making the second statue guard a royal pain to play. That's where I'm at right now. It's my second time fighting him, since I was beginning the gold thief guild, but realized I could take the silver statue out much faster. Man, it feels so wrong using your ideas in this run! I almost feel unworthy to do this, leeching of of your knowledge like this while all of mine turn out to be bad.
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Posted: 1/27/2005 5:27 AM
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scubed
Former player
Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 155
>Man, it feels so wrong using your ideas in this run! >I almost feel unworthy to do this, leeching of of your >knowledge like this while all of mine turn out to be >bad. It doesn't bother me. This is all about beating the games as quickly as possible. I am honored that you like my ideas.
Posted: 1/28/2005 12:46 AM
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Ferret_Warlord
Skilled player (1404)
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1977
Location: Making an escape
I have incorporated forced dodging into the silver thief battle and have shaved off nearly a second from it. Good going! Right now I am entering the third guild and will get another WIP up after I beat the gold thief. Edit: Then again, maybe not. I can get a few more early hits into the silver thief, making the battle go even faster. Fourth time I've redone that battle...
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Posted: 1/28/2005 2:18 PM
Post subject: Doors
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scubed
Former player
Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 155
Just so you know, since yours is faster and I don't have too much extra time, I will leave the run up to you. In my partial run, did you like the using the doors to send me back? Since the scrolling is fixed, it makes it more to do. (I like jumping off the platform and then using the door so I land on the same platform again, and then jump off.) You noted that you can jump off the air after going through a door or starting a statue area, right? As far as I can tell, that is the only way to make it to that first high platform for the wizard challenges without waiting for it to go all the way around. As for the other platforms, it looks like you just have to wait. I am looking forward to your next WIP.
Posted: 1/28/2005 2:44 PM
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Ferret_Warlord
Skilled player (1404)
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1977
Location: Making an escape
Yeah, I knew about being on solid ground for a frame when entering the guilds. Glad you made use of it. And yes, your ability to effectively waste time in an autoscrolling area impresses me. My attempts aren't as fluid as that. ;P I too am looking forward to my next WIP. Had to do the silver thief battle over four times, and three of those four times I was working on the third guild at the time. My last time saved only 17 frames even though the results look drastically different (couldn't get myself positioned properly otherwise I would have cut off 40 frames). As for how faster it would be compared to yours, I'd say somewhere around 5-10 seconds, if that much. Another things of note: crawling is best for covering short distances; very useful in close quarter combat. And the crowbar still sucks. As noted in my initial post, there are several secret rooms that dump you at a different location when you exit; there has to be one that could be made useful. There's one I know of in the castle girl's tower, but using that slows me down by about two seconds when compared to just jumping off. I find it interesting that the flashing castle and city guys seem pacified by the third level thief; wonder why that is. Kind of a shame about you giving up. Good luck on whatever endeavour you take to next.
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Posted: 2/1/2005 2:18 AM
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Ferret_Warlord
Skilled player (1404)
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1977
Location: Making an escape
I promised a WIP once I beat the gold thief. Well, I lied. ;P Instead, you'll get the first 12345 frames of this movie, which is before the silver thief (found a place to improve it before the battle; I'll have to do it again *sigh*).
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Posted: 2/1/2005 5:33 AM
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Zalien
Joined: 1/10/2005
Posts: 63
Very nice! The menu speed was literally blazing and the jumps were really precise and fast. Also the fight for the silver statue was very fast and I liked the tiny jump to get past the guard guy. I don't know what else to say about it besides keep at it! I can't wait for your finished version!
Posted: 2/1/2005 1:46 PM
Post subject: WIP
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scubed
Former player
Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 155
I tried changing the movie to start at power on, and it worked just fine. No resynchronization was needed. It looked really good. That other route past the window to disable the beehive was a lot better than mine. I didn't realize that you could jump that low and still get past the guard. >I promised a WIP once I beat the gold thief. >Well, I lied. Well, technically, you can still post a movie after you beat the gold thief and it won't be a lie.
Posted: 2/3/2005 3:04 AM
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Ferret_Warlord
Skilled player (1404)
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1977
Location: Making an escape
Finally.[/b] After redoing the same battle five times and redoing the portion after that four, I just got done with the gold thief. His behavior is exactly the same as the silver thief's, so the exact same strategy was used, but some additional dodges were incorporated. I got him to dodge twice in a row at the end, but unfortunately I can't get the same effect at the beginning, so I let him rough me up a bit like his silver cousin. It came nearly a week later than anticipated, but here's the WIP as promised: http://www.filespace.org/Hermbletont/Wizards_n_Warriors_3_WIP.fcm . I ended it on frame 24816 (my last one was integers, so now I did powers of two <^_^>). After some testing, I noticed that skipping a level will give you the previous level as well, so I can get the barrier without having to do the trial. Useless, but interesting nonetheless. Edit: I have no clue what I just did, but somehow I fell right through the floor.
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Posted: 2/3/2005 4:43 AM
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Dark_Mana
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 191
good work. cant wait for the rest of the run
Posted: 2/3/2005 6:47 AM
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Truncated
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (968)
Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3107
Location: Sweden
Arcade TAS of 2023 Sega TASer of 2021 Sega TAS of 2021
Around frame 20200 you go right while jumping up a house, and then on the roof turn around and go left. Why can't you start going left earlier? Also, some dancing with the sword in synch with the music in the autoscrolling levels would be fun. This game is sort of... boring. Why did the W&W games decrease in quality for every new game?
Posted: 2/3/2005 7:05 AM
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Ferret_Warlord
Skilled player (1404)
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1977
Location: Making an escape
Around frame 20200 you go right while jumping up a house, and then on the roof turn around and go left. Why can't you start going left earlier? I did that to eliminate the beehive without the first wizard. I did it before, about 10,000 frames before that, but the effect isn't permanent, so I had to do it again. Yes, I did try to dance to the music at first. See how I'm throwing my sword around a bit in the first guild? Yeah, it turned out badly, so I didn't do it again. Sorry, but my ability to waste time is lacking, shall we say? :| At least I thought the minimal input for the third guild was creative. And yes, I'll agree that this is the dullest in the series, but it is also arguably the hardest because of two isolated parts -- not that it matters here.
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Posted: 2/3/2005 1:23 PM
Post subject: Thiefs
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scubed
Former player
Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 155
Wow, you killed those statues quickly. Yes, getting level 3 wizard gives you level 2 also. If you go back and do 2, it puts you in level 3 form and has no effect on which levels you can select. It is nice to see they did some condition checking. Do you have a movie of falling through the floor? That could be useful. The enemies fall through everything as soon as you push them off of their preset tracks. I hope that if there is a fall through floors bug that it is easier to do than the one in Castlevania 2.
Posted: 2/3/2005 3:24 PM
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Zalien
Joined: 1/10/2005
Posts: 63
I like what I see so far, but I wanna ask about the first crown jewel. Its on the path back to the gold thief place and wanted to know why you didn't grab it then? Did I miss something about a better place to grab it?
Posted: 2/3/2005 4:49 PM
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Ferret_Warlord
Skilled player (1404)
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1977
Location: Making an escape
I'm going to get it as a level three thief, which moves much faster. She's hardly out the way, so some time should be shaved off. No, I don't have a movie of me falling through the fall since I did that while planning what was immediately up ahead. It was in the bronze knight statue room, and I fell through the floor where the door is at. It may have something to do with me jumping at the proper angle and speed at the corner there. I haven't been able to replicate it, unfortunately.
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
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