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Decathlon for Commodore 64

Compete through the 10 track & field events of Decathlon for the highest score.
Anyone familiar with NES Track & Field will see similarities.

TAS Notes

  • BizHawk 1.13.0 default settings
  • Game is cartridge version
  • Goal was highest achievable score in the fastest time.
    • Unfortunately you have to wait for the CPU to finish running events which adds some time. While a 2-player game would speed up race events, even scratching out non-timed events with player 2 would take longer than simply waiting for the CPU to finish races.

Run by Event:

100 Meter Dash (Score 1435)
  • In-game time = 8.65 seconds
  • Actual world record = 9.58 seconds (Usain Bolt 2009)
Long Jump (Score 1249)
  • In-game distance = 9.19 meters
  • Actual world record = 8.95 meters (Mike Powell 1991)
  • Instant jumps on attempts 2 & 3 to minimize time spent (faster than running past scratch line).
Shot Put (Score 1260)
  • In-game distance = 23.57 meters
  • Actual World Record = 23.12 meters (Randy Barnes 1990)
  • Immediate weak throws on attempts 2 & 3 to minimize time (faster than running past scratch line).
High Jump (Score 1025)
  • Because there is no option to set initial height on the bar, multiple attempts that clear the bar are necessary for maximum score.
  • In-game max height cleared 2.2 meters
    • I was unable to clear 2.4 meters with any input combinations that I tried. Three immediate miss jumps are done at 2.4m to move to next event (faster than running scratches).
  • Actual world record = 2.45 meters (Javier Sotomayor 1993)
400m (Score 1360)
  • In-game time = 38.90 seconds
  • Actual world record = 43.03 seconds (Wayde van Niekerk 2016)
110 Hurdles (Score 1259)
  • In-game time = 11.55 seconds
  • Actual world record = 12.80 seconds (Aries Merritt 2012)
Discus (Score 1239)
  • In-game distance = 71.55 meters
  • Actual World Record = 74.08 meters (Jürgen Schult 1986)
Pole Vault (Score 957)
  • Because there is no option to set initial height on the bar, multiple attempts that clear the bar are necessary for maximum score.
  • In-game height = 4.6 meters
    • I was unable to clear 4.8 meters with any input combinations that I tried. Three running scratches at 4.8 meters are performed to end the event.
  • Actual World Record = 6.16 meters (Renaud Lavillenie 2014)
Javelin Throw (Score 1210)
  • In-game distance = 100.96 meters
  • Actual World Records (before and after javelin specification changes of 1986 and 1991)= 104.80 meters (Uwe Hohn 1984) & 98.48 meters (Jan Železný 1996)
  • Running scratches used for attempts 2 & 3 to end event.
1500m (Score 1065)
  • In-game time = 3:33.43
  • Actual World Record = 3:26.00 (Hicham El Guerrouj 1998)
Total Score = 12,059 points
  • Actual World Record Score = 9,045 points (Ashton Eaton 2015)

Considerations

This TAS uses joystick inputs for the events. According to https://www.c64-wiki.com/wiki/Decathlon it is possible to achieve a higher total score using something referred to as a keyboard cheat. I was unable to figure out how to use keyboard input for the game and thus was unable to determine if a TAS based on keyboard input method would beat that score or not. This TAS beats the joystick best of that website by over 1000 points.
In the TAS notes section, I boldfaced the better result between this TAS and the actual current world records. While all of these actual records have been set since the game was made, I find it interesting that the programmers didn't make it possible to beat records that existed before the game was published. It was made in 1983 and released in 1984. With the exception of Javelin Throw, all the events that have current world records which beat the TAS results also had records by the end of in 1983 that would have beat the TAS as well.
  • Records at the end of 1983
    • High Jump: 2.38 meters
    • Discus: 71.85 meters
    • Pole Vault: 5.83 meters
    • 1500m: 3:30.77

Potential Questions

Could this score be beaten regardless of time? If someone were able to discover input variation that would allow for higher clearances of High Jump and Pole Vault, this score could be beaten. But I was unable to find any. This would also result in increased TAS length.
Could the time be beaten regardless of score? Absolutely. Scratching out on all non-timed events would result in a faster TAS, but a much lower score.
Could the time be beaten with equal or higher score? To my knowledge based on the the input permutations I tried, I don't believe that this score could be achieved in less time. I will be interested to see if someone is able to! (I'll actually be interested if someone is even willing to try.)
Fog: Judging.
Fog: Nothing too spectacular here.
Accepting to Vault.
feos: Pub.
Fog: After further deliberating with other judges, this cannot be accepted for the following reasons:
1) The goal choice is not quite clear.
The best possible goal choice that this run might be aiming for is maximum score. However, we do not know the highest possible score in this game with absolute certainty. If this game is aiming for fastest time, then taking scratches in all non-timed based events would be faster than actually completing the event.
2) The run is not entertaining enough for Moons tier.
Because the run's entertainment value is near-zero, this is automatically judged under Vault rules. This makes the rules much stricter in terms of goal choices.
3) The run does not match with Vault rules.
If comparing to the goal choices mentioned above, it does not neatly follow in line with what we allow in Vault. Vault requires either the fastest completion time, or the absolute maximum score possible (and proven to be such). Anything else is not allowed.
With everything above, this run must be rejected.
feos: Unrejecting to see if this movie meets the new vaultable rules for max score.
DrD2k9: Cancelling. Given the discussion that occurred after this run's unrejection and the ultimate decision that this game is indeed vault eligible under max score rules, I am working on a new version of this game with an improvement in score as well as conversion to NTSC sync settings (which is what this run should have been created with initially). I will (hopefully) also be able to include a breakdown of the game code to show that the resulting run will have the maximum possible score based on the game's coded mechanics.

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Posted: 6/16/2017 6:40 PM
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TASVideoAgent
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This topic is for the purpose of discussing #5554: DrD2k9's C64 Decathlon "maximum score" in 11:26.31
Posted: 6/16/2017 7:03 PM
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Spikestuff
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Basically this TAS is asking a simple thing. Do you like quirkiness or not? I prefer the quirkiness even if it is slower because the entire point of your TAS is going for in-game time not TAStime. I'm voting No on Entertainment.
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Posted: 6/16/2017 10:33 PM
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DrD2k9
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Spikestuff wrote:
Basically this TAS is asking a simple thing. Do you like quirkiness or not? I prefer the quirkiness even if it is slower because the entire point of your TAS is going for in-game time not TAStime. I'm voting No on Entertainment.
I can't disagree with you. The quirkiness of that publication makes it more entertaining. I considered the quirky/humorous angle. Unfortunately this game doesn't have the funny animations like in NES Track & Field, so running a player that only fails just makes for a longer video without adding anything entertaining in my opinion. I also considered trying to match Ashton Eaton's event point values of the current real-world world record for Decathalon. While it may have been interesting from a 'matching real-world' perspective, I didn't feel it would add much entertainment value to a watcher over a run based on maximal scores. I'm frankly not expecting many 'yes' votes on this run for entertainment purposes. I'm not even sure it's vaultable. But the only way to find out was to submit it.
Posted: 6/29/2017 4:18 PM
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feos
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I always only check stuff when it's almost too late. Does aiming for max score cost any time for this game? Or fastest time automatically gives you max score?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 6/29/2017 7:45 PM
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Fog
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feos wrote:
I always only check stuff when it's almost too late. Does aiming for max score cost any time for this game? Or fastest time automatically gives you max score?
Fastest time should automatically give maximum score.
Posted: 6/30/2017 9:24 PM
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DrD2k9
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feos wrote:
I always only check stuff when it's almost too late. Does aiming for max score cost any time for this game? Or fastest time automatically gives you max score?
Yes going for a max score takes longer time than a run that doesn't care about score. Unlike Track and Field on NES, failure to score in any particular event does not disqualify you from continuing on to the next event. Therefore, no minimum requirements are necessary to 'finish' an event. Most non-timed events could be completed faster with lower scores or scratches. Specifically, the High Jump and Pole Vault events could both be scratched for 0 points each and result in a significantly faster game completion as the bar would never raise to a new height requiring more attempts. All Speed based events yield higher score as the time to complete them decreases. As little entertainment value as this run may offer, a shorter version simply full of scratches and poor performance just to achieve a shorter TAS would be even less entertaining in my opinion.
Posted: 6/30/2017 9:27 PM
Post subject: Game-end Goals?
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DrD2k9
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This game brings up an interesting thought on what constitutes completing a game to its end. For some games the end-game goal is easy to define: save the princess, kill the last boss, reach the "The End" screen, etc. Many in the TAS community have found amazing ways to get to these goals such as game-end glitches. This game is different. It will essentially run to the "end" every time it's started regardless of how poor a player is. Considering the intent of the actual event of Decathalon in track and field is highest cumulative score, I don't see a point in not going for the best score for any events just to save TAS time. "Highest Score" is thus the main game-end goal for a human player. Given that you can't be disqualified, anyone playing should eventually reach the "end" of the game no matter how poor a player they are (and assuming they aren't just leaving the character standing still). So the way I see it, "Highest Score" is really the only true game-end goal. Thus the game-end goal for a TASer as well. I hope that makes sense.
Posted: 7/1/2017 6:36 AM
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feos
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If Highest Score somehow changes the ending, it might be considered a designed goal. If it changes nothing in the ending, it's just an optional goal that can be ignored. So far I don't see how this game requires hi score to be actually beaten. And you don't need to make it more entertaining, because it's not entertaining at all already, so it won't go to Moons if you add speed trade-offs. Usually it's the opposite way - a run already has Moons content, and then the author decides to add speed trade-offs to make it even better. Not sensible here. So I'm not convinced that this is a vaultable thing as is.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 7/1/2017 3:28 PM
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Noxxa
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feos wrote:
So far I don't see how this game requires hi score to be actually beaten.
Vault Rules wrote:
The [sports] game must have a meaningful ending point with meaningful completion criteria.
If in order to progress and clear the game, there is no requirement to do well, or not even to not fail at each sport, then I do not consider that meaningful completion criteria.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Posted: 7/1/2017 7:29 PM
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TASVideosGrue
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om, nom, nom... om, nom, nom... nom nom
Posted: 7/3/2017 3:13 PM
Post subject: Re: #5554: DrD2k9's C64 Decathlon in 11:26.31
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DrD2k9
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TASVideoAgent wrote:
Fog</a>: After further deliberating with other judges, this cannot be accepted for the following reasons: <p>1) The goal choice is not quite clear. <p>The best possible goal choice that this run might be aiming for is maximum score. However, we do not know the highest possible score in this game with absolute certainty. If this game is aiming for fastest time, then taking scratches in all non-timed based events would be faster than actually completing the event. <p>2) The run is not entertaining enough for Moons tier. <p>Because the run's entertainment value is near-zero, this is automatically judged under Vault rules. This makes the rules much stricter in terms of goal choices. <p>3) The run does not match with Vault rules. <p>If comparing to the goal choices mentioned above, it does not neatly follow in line with what we allow in Vault. Vault requires either the fastest completion time, or the absolute maximum score possible (and proven to be such). Anything else is not allowed. <p>With everything above, this run must be rejected. </div></div></blockquote>
I guess I'm still new enough at this hobby that I sometimes struggle to differentiate human goal vs. TAS goal. Thank you all for your input/thoughts/criticisms. I appreciate the scrutiny when it's offered with an explanation. It will only help me improve for the future. I only wish I could guarantee that I won't make these kind of errors-in-judgement again. Hopefully they'll at least be less often.
Posted: 11/23/2019 9:43 PM
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WarHippy
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It's so much more satisfying to see all the events completed rather than scratched out. (but it's still a 'Meh' vote for me) I also really appreciate the comparison to real world records and how this game tried to match them.
Posted: 11/25/2019 1:53 PM
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ViGadeomes
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I'm really interrested to see how the judgement will end on this submission, maybe it will let the possibility to one of my old TAS on A2600 Decathlon never submitted to be submitted. But, there will be an other problem on this one because on the pole vault event, we can reach 5.6 meters without messing score but an overflow after and 21,2 meters before the game softlocks. So if we can consider as a maximum score the maximum score without overflow even if we know that we can go upper (in the event) then the TAS will be submittable and acceptable, if not, the TAS will not be submitted.
Posted: 12/1/2019 7:36 PM
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feos
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Vaultable max score requires the game to be completed according to our general rules, but this is a sports game so it has an additional requirement.
Mothrayas wrote:
Vault Rules wrote:
The [sports] game must have a meaningful ending point with meaningful completion criteria.
If in order to progress and clear the game, there is no requirement to do well, or not even to not fail at each sport, then I do not consider that meaningful completion criteria.
This seems to be my biggest problem with this game.
Sports games are allowed under restrictions wrote:
In sports that depend on a variety of environments or situations, such as golf, completion can be defined by clearing every environment or situation in the game.
With this game, you don't need to clear anything, it doesn't matter how sloppily you play, you still get the same result all the time.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 12/1/2019 9:53 PM
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DrD2k9
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I'll admit that the following may appear biased because I'm the author of this submission, but I do believe the arguments would be valid for any game such as this. I'd argue that a high score in itself is a meaningful completion criteria. For many older games, the whole design of the game was about achieving (and competing) for a high score table. While this game doesn't yield a high-score table, the completion criteria of achieving the highest possible score is still the end goal. For this reason, games such as this (other decathlon games and likely some other genres) are achieving the intended completion goal...even if poor performance doesn't yield a different visual outcome. We could consider it this way for TASing purposes: A run that fails to achieve a maximum score, fails to achieve the completion criteria of achieving the highest score for the various events. A run that achieves the highest possible score has achieved the completion criteria. The biggest issue is "what is the highest possible score?" Without the knowledge to break down the game code to mathematically determine this from the game's code, the only way to know the highest possible score is to achieve it through performance. So for judging such games, I'd suggest that a run which seemingly can't be beaten from a score standpoint stands as an adequate value for this theoretical 'maximum' score and could be published. If someone else were to find a way to surpass that score (after the original has been published) then we learn that the original 'maximum' score wasn't actually the best and the new run would obsolete the old. This is essentially how we treat speed based runs already. We publish what we perceive as the fastest completion even if it hasn't been a guaranteed fastest by code breakdown; then we allow for obsoleting by a faster submission that we didn't previously realize was possible. To put the comparison very simply: Highest known achievable score = Fastest known achievable completion time Newer and higher high score obsoletes older lower score = newer fastest completion time obsoletes older (no longer) fastest completion time To uphold the site's general desire for speed, the fastest method of achieving the highest know score is preferred over a slower method of achieving the same score.
Posted: 12/1/2019 10:14 PM
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feos
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Runs aiming for time are still required to complete the game.
The movie must be complete wrote:
Where applicable, the movie must reach an ending screen that positively signifies a game is finished successfully. Reaching a game-over screen is not considered beating the game. If a game shows the same ending screen regardless of success or failure, reaching it is not considered successful completion.
The problem is quite simple and precise: the actual completion requirements are missing from the game. You can't call "reaching the highest score" game completion because 1) it's a non-binary condition, and 2) it's arbitrary. I may suggest that you're supposed to not fail in any of the attempts. Or to beat some record in each of them. Or something else. When there's no hard requirement for meaningful completion, you can invent any soft requirement, but it would remain artificial, not inherent. Meaningful completion criteria are undefined for this game. And we can't use max score to outright replace the fastest completion goal, because... that won't help with the completion definition.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 12/2/2019 12:29 PM
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WarHippy
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So there does exist a game manual In the Scoring section it says that achieving 1000+ points in any event will award you with a musical tribute. So while the ending doesn't change based on performance, the content does. There is also even an (unofficial?) Club of Champions which awards you Gold status at 10,000 points or more. Since the game does recognize some form of high score, I believe that unlocking the musical tribute in every event can count as full completion. That being said (unfortunately) I don't think this game falls under Max Score rules anymore. I think this run would have to be re-done in order to get to 1000 points as fast as possible in each event and then scratching out as soon as possible afterwards.
Posted: 12/3/2019 6:21 AM
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electricslide
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man the original rejection is such crap. Yes, it's possible that the score may be improvable, but until it's actually achieved that the score can be bested, it should have been accepted.
Posted: 12/3/2019 1:14 PM
Post subject: One again electricslide having bad takes.
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EZGames69
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electricslide wrote:
man the original rejection is such crap. Yes, it's possible that the score may be improvable, but until it's actually achieved that the score can be bested, it should have been accepted.
Except the rules didn’t allow it to be accepted before.
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't 12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!" Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish [Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
Posted: 12/3/2019 2:33 PM
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feos
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electricslide wrote:
man the original rejection is such crap. Yes, it's possible that the score may be improvable, but until it's actually achieved that the score can be bested, it should have been accepted.
Are you ever planning to start caring about the site's goals and principles?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 12/3/2019 3:34 PM
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unwright
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Why is a 2.5 year old submission being necro'd & discussed at all? It's an obvious 'no' and that has been made abundantly clear. Can we close this one out? Please?
Posted: 12/3/2019 3:38 PM
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feos
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unwright wrote:
Why is a 2.5 year old submission being necro'd & discussed at all? It's an obvious 'no' and that has been made abundantly clear. Can we close this one out? Please?
See the bottom of submission text.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 12/3/2019 3:44 PM
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DrD2k9
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feos wrote:
The problem is quite simple and precise: the actual completion requirements are missing from the game.
While I do wish there were ways to make these kinds of games acceptable, I see this perspective and understand where it comes from. I understood the original rejection reason, and I understand why the lack of clearly defined completion criteria could result in another rejection. Ultimately, you're the senior judge and the decision is up to you. I, for one, feel it would be nice to have such runs on the site, although I don't have any further suggestions at this point on how to add/modify the rules to allow such games with undefined completion criteria. Side Note: I am open to contribute to discussion on helping find a way to make these type of games acceptable. If nothing else, the re-judging of this run helps to further clarify the current rules we have by offering an example of what may not qualify.
Posted: 12/3/2019 3:49 PM
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feos
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You can help by breaking down how the game actually scores each event and action.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 12/3/2019 4:36 PM
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EZGames69
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unwright wrote:
Why is a 2.5 year old submission being necro'd & discussed at all? It's an obvious 'no' and that has been made abundantly clear. Can we close this one out? Please?
Rule changes regarding max score tases has been changed, so this tas is being relooked at. If there’s any others that could be relooked at dont be afraid to bring them up here: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19596
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't 12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!" Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish [Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
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