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NES TAS of 2011
KusogeMan wrote:
Link to video kreated custom characters have way better combos for speedrunning, how exactly could i use some of them into a TAS? you gotta buy their moves, but only few moves are needed for this infinite, only 3 HPs and a special move, so athe TAS could have a movie for verification just to prepare for the run
Will it be aiming for speed or entertainment?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting. If TASing is meta-play, TASVideos Movie Rules are meta-meta-play!
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Speed, this game is great for playarounds too, but there's a hundred of these on youtube.
I plan on TASing whatever simple games you don't want to. TAS i'm interested: megaman series: mmbn1 100%, bn3456, mmx3 any% psx glitched, pokemon series : colosseum and XD, emerald 7symbols, maximum carnage, mmx command mission mortal kombat series: UMK3, MKT, MKA, MKD and MKDA fighting games with speed goals in general
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NES TAS of 2011
If creating a custom character can be a part of the movie, probably it makes sense to have a run that quickly creates the quickest possible char and beats the game with it. Something more arbitrary may have to be entertaining.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting. If TASing is meta-play, TASVideos Movie Rules are meta-meta-play!
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I'm not entirely familiar with a lot of rule changes here, but would this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fy5qt_SOapM be acceptable (and if so, would it be playground?) based on new rules. Assuming the author submitted it to TASVideos of course.
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
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NES TAS of 2011
adelikat wrote:
I'm not entirely familiar with a lot of rule changes here, but would this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fy5qt_SOapM be acceptable (and if so, would it be playground?) based on new rules. Assuming the author submitted it to TASVideos of course.
I can't figure out how to describe the goal.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting. If TASing is meta-play, TASVideos Movie Rules are meta-meta-play!
adelikat
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feos wrote:
adelikat wrote:
I'm not entirely familiar with a lot of rule changes here, but would this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fy5qt_SOapM be acceptable (and if so, would it be playground?) based on new rules. Assuming the author submitted it to TASVideos of course.
I can't figure out how to describe the goal.
It manages to wrap back to level 0 (including behavior such as falling speed), so it would be an "all levels" goal, which is quite the achievement. The best AI bot gets into the 230's before the game inevitably crashes, but this TAS manages to avoid that crash and play all 255 levels
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
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NES TAS of 2011
adelikat wrote:
It manages to wrap back to level 0 (including behavior such as falling speed), so it would be an "all levels" goal, which is quite the achievement. The best AI bot gets into the 230's before the game inevitably crashes, but this TAS manages to avoid that crash and play all 255 levels
Ah so it maxes out content and difficulty? The description says it uses a cheat and a lua script to avoid the crash, but that's fine I guess.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting. If TASing is meta-play, TASVideos Movie Rules are meta-meta-play!
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Capcom versus SNK 2 has 4 main modes, single match, ratio match, all character survival and 3on3 . For a speed-oriented TAS: Ratio is the official competitive mode. It can be used to get better damage without tampering with game settings. Survival with finite number of characters is the hardest and longest mode. Single match would be the shortest if I chose 1 round only, but this is not the traditional mode of play for this game. This game also allows for modification of the damage to make fights quicker, but this is far from the expected gameplay. Should i amp up the damage, even though that's not the normal gameplay? In case of single match, should I use 1 round only even though that's not the normal gameplay? I can also increase the game's speed, which doesn't seem to be normal settings either. I'm really leaning towards doing the ratio mode with normal settings and hardest difficulty or doing the Survival mode, but I'd really like your input.
I plan on TASing whatever simple games you don't want to. TAS i'm interested: megaman series: mmbn1 100%, bn3456, mmx3 any% psx glitched, pokemon series : colosseum and XD, emerald 7symbols, maximum carnage, mmx command mission mortal kombat series: UMK3, MKT, MKA, MKD and MKDA fighting games with speed goals in general
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KusogeMan wrote:
Single match would be the shortest if I chose 1 round only, but this is not the traditional mode of play for this game. This game also allows for modification of the damage to make fights quicker, but this is far from the expected gameplay. Should i amp up the damage, even though that's not the normal gameplay? In case of single match, should I use 1 round only even though that's not the normal gameplay? I can also increase the game's speed, which doesn't seem to be normal settings either. I'm really leaning towards doing the ratio mode with normal settings and hardest difficulty or doing the Survival mode, but I'd really like your input.
Previously our rule of thumb with arbitrary tweaks was that normal gameplay means intended gameplay, so you're free to use whatever setting the game officially advertises. The fact that they are not hidden means it's up to you really. Otherwise it would be weird to demand something specific. Current rules don't even have that section anymore, and I think it's better that way. If later there's a community consensus that some settings needs to be different, we'll have actual people who care about that game and can explain their point better than we can attempt to predict right now. So yeah just use whatever option the game presents to you.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting. If TASing is meta-play, TASVideos Movie Rules are meta-meta-play!
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I asked on discord, and was told to post it here so: On Telefang 1, there exists secret monsters you can call that would be vastly higher level than anything for 1/2 the game: https://wiki.telefang.net/Secret_Denjuu#Secret_Denjuu_in_Telefang_1 Specifically, Kanzou and Ornithogalum at level 50. The "glitchless" any% run can benefit from using a high level npc to help beat most bosses at the start. The 100% needs the secret denjuu to unlock diploma (you can check by setting addresses 0xC6E0 - 0xC6F5 to 0xFF), so there's no way avoiding it unless I'm required to call them, then avoid using them. This also applies to the sequel: https://tasvideos.org/5882S But unlike the 1st game, it's quite balanced, so it ended up not that game breaking (the secret denjuu is now only level 30, while the strongest npc you get early on is 28). Due to discoveries made after the run was made, this also meant the very 1st fight without secret denjuu is the hardest.
Post subject: finding correct distribution for Another World (DOS)
eien86
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Hey Judges, I'm thinking of TASing Another World for DOS (also known as Out Of This World). I am looking for the perfect distribution, i.e.: an original disk with the code wheel anti-piracy system. I must have found 6 or 7 different distros already, all of them being either: (a) code wheel cracked (funny enough: if you put the right code, it freezes) (b) later original distributions (CDROM) by Delphine where the code wheel is removed. I could start with (b), but I'd really like to find the perfect distro with the copyright system where I can RNG manip the fastest inputs. Questions: 1 - It is ok if I end up TASing (b)? 2 - Do you know of the existence of uncracked (a), or this is distribution lost forever? (disclaimer, I am not asking for links, just the certainty that this exists) Thanks
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It is really just about authenticity of whatever you are able to find. If the best you can find is a cracked version, it's fine. If it's official, it's better.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting. If TASing is meta-play, TASVideos Movie Rules are meta-meta-play!
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1. If it's an official release and the files are unaltered, then it's perfectly fine to use. 2. I believe the uncracked version has been preserved. For uncracked stuff, anything you find in a zip file is questionable, and it's best to use original floppy disk images if you can. If the game comes with multiple disks you can use the disk swapping hotkeys.
Post subject: Recompiled game engine build
AntyMew
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Hypothetical question... if a game were released on such and such PC platform without any TASability, how publishable would a run based off of a third-party recompilation of the game engine be? The case on my mind is OneShot (2016), which is only officially released for x86/x64 Windows Vista and x64 Linux, and has its engine open sourced under GPLv2. The game doesn't work in libTAS because of the popup prompts, nor in PCem+Windows because the game requires Vista at the earliest, nor in PCem+Linux because it doesn't support x64. However, it would be very possible to build the game for x86 Linux and then drop in all the necessary non-GPL assets from an official release. I haven't tested it myself just yet though. In my opinion this specific scenario is relatively unproblematic, but more broadly speaking it's an interesting question. What if the engine also requires some source code edits to make it TASable? What if the engine is not open source, and a mod of some sort makes it TASable? What of downporting it to an earlier OS, ex. Windows XP? Etc. etc.
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AntyMew wrote:
However, it would be very possible to build the game for x86 Linux and then drop in all the necessary non-GPL assets from an official release.
This seems to basically be an extended case of TASing PC games by porting them to Linux (when possible, e.g. GameMaker or Unity games that run the actual game code in a virtual machine instead of compiling to native code), only in this case you are simply porting the game to x86. We already have a publication which does that: [4579] Windows Unworthy by keylie in 24:05.40. We also have [4496] Windows Backyard Baseball "Pick-Up Game" by TiKevin83 in 04:45.05, which is a publication that unofficially ports the game to Linux using (as far as I understand it) an engine replacement known as ScummVM. So, I'd say the scenario with OneShot here is acceptable, and in fact even more acceptable than those previous two examples, since we're only porting it to a different architecture while keeping the operating system the same. In general, any unofficial port is allowed as long as it doesn't introduce anything different gameplay-wise from the original game, and is reproducible and syncable. You're even allowed to patch the emulator or TAS tool if needed - we've accepted #7242: duuuuude5's Windows Undertale "Genocide ending, minimum confirms" in 1:22:29.95 on the basis that it's syncable using a release build of libTAS with a backported patch from a later release.
AntyMew wrote:
more broadly speaking it's an interesting question. What if the engine also requires some source code edits to make it TASable?
That's a bit iffy, but in theory at least, we would be able to audit exactly what the patch does and make a determination as to whether it introduces something different gameplay-wise. (Too bad VVVVVV couldn't test this for us, it's already such a good, well-behaved game that it was TASable in libTAS and we didn't need the source code release at all.) As long as the run is syncable and the patches to the game reproducible and reasonable, I don't see why we couldn't accept them.
AntyMew wrote:
What if the engine is not open source, and a mod of some sort makes it TASable?
That's more tricky. I vaguely recall there being a bit of an effort to write the rules for game- or engine- specific TAS tools (e.g. Source Pause Tool, Minecraft TASmod, and so on) and make them acceptable, but I'm not sure where that's at right now. Regardless, I think in the future they would be acceptable as long as the tools are good enough (e.g. replay is input-based and not state-based so you can't modify the replay to do impossible things).
AntyMew wrote:
What of downporting it to an earlier OS, ex. Windows XP? Etc. etc.
Again, this seems to just be an extended case of porting Windows games to Linux, and like I said above we have two movies published based on that. So I'd say it's generally acceptable (as long as it syncs and is reproducible and doesn't introduce massive gameplay differences).
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Info Teddy wrote:
AntyMew wrote:
However, it would be very possible to build the game for x86 Linux and then drop in all the necessary non-GPL assets from an official release.
This seems to basically be an extended case of TASing PC games by porting them to Linux (when possible, e.g. GameMaker or Unity games that run the actual game code in a virtual machine instead of compiling to native code), only in this case you are simply porting the game to x86. We already have a publication which does that: [4579] Windows Unworthy by keylie in 24:05.40. We also have [4496] Windows Backyard Baseball "Pick-Up Game" by TiKevin83 in 04:45.05, which is a publication that unofficially ports the game to Linux using (as far as I understand it) an engine replacement known as ScummVM. So, I'd say the scenario with OneShot here is acceptable, and in fact even more acceptable than those previous two examples, since we're only porting it to a different architecture while keeping the operating system the same. In general, any unofficial port is allowed as long as it doesn't introduce anything different gameplay-wise from the original game, and is reproducible and syncable.
Agreed. The rules encourage people to ask us when modification is the only way to TAS the game, and if it's indeed the only way, it makes the most sense to allow it. In the case of Unworthy, the port did introduce a mechanic not present in the clean game, but it was not possible to figure out why and fix it, so I decided to err on the side of the author. If it's feasible to avoid this, of course it'd be better.
Info Teddy wrote:
You're even allowed to patch the emulator or TAS tool if needed - we've accepted #7242: duuuuude5's Windows Undertale "Genocide ending, minimum confirms" in 1:22:29.95 on the basis that it's syncable using a release build of libTAS with a backported patch from a later release.
This was a workaround so we don't make Keylie release a different branch just for us. While it wasn't hard for me to do, we want to discourage this when possible, otherwise it will become a mess if people keep doing it. I even decided not to put that fork into TASEmulators so people don't think it's more official than upstream and stick to it.
Info Teddy wrote:
AntyMew wrote:
more broadly speaking it's an interesting question. What if the engine also requires some source code edits to make it TASable?
That's a bit iffy, but in theory at least, we would be able to audit exactly what the patch does and make a determination as to whether it introduces something different gameplay-wise. (Too bad VVVVVV couldn't test this for us, it's already such a good, well-behaved game that it was TASable in libTAS and we didn't need the source code release at all.) As long as the run is syncable and the patches to the game reproducible and reasonable, I don't see why we couldn't accept them.
Yeah that's the beauty of open sores source. In general discouraged, but if this is the only way and it can be done properly, we should allow it.
Info Teddy wrote:
AntyMew wrote:
What if the engine is not open source, and a mod of some sort makes it TASable?
That's more tricky. I vaguely recall there being a bit of an effort to write the rules for game- or engine- specific TAS tools (e.g. Source Pause Tool, Minecraft TASmod, and so on) and make them acceptable, but I'm not sure where that's at right now. Regardless, I think in the future they would be acceptable as long as the tools are good enough (e.g. replay is input-based and not state-based so you can't modify the replay to do impossible things).
If the question is about outright adding TAS tools through modification, we have a thread about it. If it's about tweaking the game so it runs better in libTAS, I don't think we've had such situations before, and obviously the ideal solution if tweaking libTAS to support it. If that can't be done, we don't have much of a way to actually review the patch, and I don't know if we can afford depending on black box binary patches officially.
Info Teddy wrote:
AntyMew wrote:
What of downporting it to an earlier OS, ex. Windows XP? Etc. etc.
Again, this seems to just be an extended case of porting Windows games to Linux, and like I said above we have two movies published based on that. So I'd say it's generally acceptable (as long as it syncs and is reproducible and doesn't introduce massive gameplay differences).
Yep.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting. If TASing is meta-play, TASVideos Movie Rules are meta-meta-play!
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For Wario Land 2: There is the last stage, called "The Really Final Chapter", which is the 50th stage in the game. This is normally unlocked after beating every single stage with all their treasures and maps collected. You would get this screen: Then you can reach that stage. Using glitches, it is possible to unlock it before this happens. This is done by beating the 49th stage (Factory-5) out of bounds. If I beat stage 50 last, the game shows the ending, followed by the credits. If I beat stage 50 as the 2nd last stage, then backtrack to the final castle stage (Stage 24), I would not be able to see the ending, but the run would end at instead. What is the stance of beating 100%, but not show the ending?
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jlun2 wrote:
I would not be able to see the ending
To elaborate: We don't see it because a soft reset would be done to skip it and then proceed to the last level not done yet, not that it can't appear. Additionally, the ending sequence of The Really Final Chapter is technically just one of the 6 different ending sequences in the game and not functionally unique. Any of these endings can be triggered by beating the corresponding level again at any time. The main benefit of ending with an ending sequence in this case is more so to show a screen where 100% counters along with the best time record for the Final Stage are shown for formality. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3K9-2pximc
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The images in your post are identical, jlun2.
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This decision would affect the order the stages are played in the last 30% of the movie, although the contents of each stage wouldn’t change bar RNG manipulation. In-game level map: https://mario.wiki.gallery/images/3/3f/WL2_Treasure_Map.png Stage IDs and how they actually connect to each other: https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/19356108/78606033-78854b00-7811-11ea-9d38-239099972cab.png Basically, a normal exit (vertical arrows on the graph) unlocks the "next" stage in the order of the internal stage IDs. 6 normally unintended unlocking (24-25, 29-30, 34-35, 39-40, 44-45, 49-50) can be done via OoB normal exit. All level completion that doesn't involve unlocking the "following" stage is triggered by a "secret exit", and this includes all 6 ending sequences in the game. The movie is currently at the point after Ch.4-5, where the 3 Final Chapters and Really Final Chapter are left. To finish the game in a more "conventional" manner, ending with the ending sequence from Really Final Chapter, we would use the following order: 20 -> 21 -> 22 -> 23 -> 24 -> 40 -> 41 -> 42 -> 43 -> 44 (beating this via a glitched exit unlocks 45) -> 45 -> 46 -> 47 -> 48 -> 49 (after this the "GREAT!" scene is played, which normally unlocks Really Final Chapter and jumps the cursor on the map selection there) -> 50 Or, to save a net total of around 90 frames by leaving the "GREAT!" scene out of the inputs, we could do this: 40 -> 41 -> 42 -> 43 -> 44 (beating this via a glitched exit unlocks 45) -> 45 -> 46 -> 47 -> 48 -> 49 (beating this via a glitched exit unlocks 50, Really Final Chapter, prematurely) -> 20 -> 21 -> 22 -> 23 -> 50 -> 24 (after this the "GREAT!" scene is played, and the movie would end on this screen) The ending mechanism in this game has been explained in my previous post. Stages 24, 29, 39, 44, 49, and 50 each has an ending sequence that would be played when the stage is beaten normally (or via an OoB secret exit). In a "100%, inbounds" movie, the first 5 ending sequences would be skipped because there is more to be done while the last would be allowed to play, both because it is the last one in the intended order and because, well, there is nothing left to do anyway. If we do the sequence break to play Really Final Chapter (50) early, its ending sequence would be skipped not because anything is preventing it to be played but because of the simple fact that there is one more stage to be done. In fact, the stage we would be doing the last, 24, has its own ending sequence, and this one would not be played because it's faster to finish the level via an OoB normal exit, which doesn't trigger the ending sequence, and there is no available OoB secret exit that was found, which could have triggered the ending sequence while still skipping the boss fight. The closest case among the published movies that I can think of is [2027] SNES Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest "102%" by Dooty, NxCy, Comicalflop in 1:21:31.88, which uses some method to complete the normally post-game ending first while triggering the intended first/any% ending at the very last to keep it out of the inputs. The movie jlun is working on would do something similar if the route with sequence break is done: it would end with a screen that signifies some sort of completion that normally wouldn't be the end of the movie to cut it out of the inputs while still finishing all gameplay contents supposed to be done. So maybe the real question here is, does the screen shown in the screenshots posted by jlun count as a completion screen of some sort that can be used as a valid movie ending point if all the intended contents of the category are otherwise done? Additionally, this movie is intended to be a new "100%" category in parallel to the existing "100%, inbounds" movie, which does have the 6th ending sequence of the game played out at the end. IMO, it is better to use the sequence break route in this "glitched 100%" movie to show off as much brokenness as possible and make it as different from the other 100% category as it can be, especially when, as mentioned in the previous post, the main benefit of ending the movie with an ending sequence in this case is more so to show a screen where 100% counters along with the best time record for the Really Final Chapter are displayed for formality, not that a specific ending sequence in this game is functionally unique.
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Okay so I asked others about this and I kinda didn't get any responses, but my opinion has changed. Originally I felt a fuller ending would be better, but since it's a branch dedicated to OOB, and you still complete all the levels, using OOB fully should be okay. The only reason there's no ending is broken level order, not lack of actual completion. This feels like a mere formality to me now.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting. If TASing is meta-play, TASVideos Movie Rules are meta-meta-play!
Post subject: improvements to both tases of "gimmick!"
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hello. ive done a bit of research about the nes game "gimmick!" created by sunsoft. i want there to be some new improvements implemented: any% - improvements to the any% parts shown in the 100% tas from 2010 100% - Samsara's any% tas improvements from 2016 (except the level 6 clip, which wouldnt work because theres a secret area) both - a new death warp in level 3 discovered by Ryan_Ford522 (would save about 8 seconds if tased) - TASeditor's level 1 & 2 wip (made for 100%, maybe any% as well if there are any improved parts that would fit there) i would implement all of this myself, but the problem is for some reason, fceux wont register any inputs in tas editor. so its up to one of you guys. if you could have the time to implement these improvements, that would be greatly appreciated. i look forward to seeing the new versions. cheers! - 1up
hi, im not a taser. i really wanted to be an nes taser, but fceux doesnt load a single input to me and bizhawk wont even load on my crappy laptop. now i just lurk around tasvideos every once in a while
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This thread is not for requests for people to tas things. This thread is for questions regarding movie rules etc.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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1UPMushroom wrote:
i would implement all of this myself, but the problem is for some reason, fceux wont register any inputs in tas editor.
Which version of fceux? Are you using this manual? https://fceux.com/web/help/taseditor/
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting. If TASing is meta-play, TASVideos Movie Rules are meta-meta-play!
Experienced Forum User, Skilled player (1591)
Joined: 9/17/2009
Posts: 4883
Location: ̶C̶a̶n̶a̶d̶a̶ "Kanatah"
GBA TASer of 2010
For Harry Potter And The Sorcerer's Stone (GBC), there's a glitch where if you use a card combo out of battle, you can death warp anywhere any time. The previous run, due to lack of cards, the combo chosen causes the screen to flicker a lot. Like, from using the bug, to the rest of the game: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/698993369321308240/1003722532307881984/SPOILER_HP1_Flicker.gif Warning: Flashing lights, do not click if sensitive. How long is this sequence? I'm ~15 minutes in to an hour long run, so 45 minutes of flicker. Choosing a different combo loses ~5 frames per use (so around 45-60 frames lost since I will death warp multiple times) , but does not cause the game to look like that. The current run has 4.8/10, clearly Vault material. Is this tradeoff fine?