Lets try this again...and again (movie file updated since submission)...

10-Yard Fight for NES

American Football...kind-of. There are major differences in this game depending on what version you are playing.
The North American release of this game plays much like a standard game of American Football with both offense and defensive play during a set time frame; winner being the team with highest score when the time runs out. Four difficulty levels are available to choose from at the beginning of the game.
The Japanese version, however, has a completely different goal. This version is high score based; more like the arcade release. Score increases with progress down the field, touchdowns, kicked PATs, and remaining time on the clock when the touchdown is scored. Another major difference is no option to select difficulty at the beginning; the game moves through the 4 difficulties as its normal progression to the hardest level (Super Bowl). Each difficulty level involves a first and second half. Scoring a touchdown ends the half and moves to the next. As each half ends as soon as a touchdown is scored, the game can be progressed through without regard for the time on the clock. Thus it is able to be speedrun.

Objectives

  • Emulator used: BizHawk 2.2.1
  • Beat the Super Bowl as quickly as possible.
  • Aims for Vault (But now contains more entertainment than the previous submission!)
  • This submission is an attempt to help complete the TASmania project.

TAS Comments

  • The primary limitation to progress in this game is the running crawling speed of the players.
    • A rough calculation of running speed yields the players run speed at 19-20 seconds to run 40-yards.
    • For comparison, professional NFL players (wide receivers/running backs) average 4.5 to 4.6 seconds per 40-yards and that's from a standing start, not already moving at top speed.
  • Vertical running speed is unaffected by L/R movements as long as 'Up' is also held on the directional pad during lateral diagonal motions.
  • Uses some really fancy footwork to avoid tackles through the first few halves. (explained more later)
  • Uses the same strats used by RTA speed runners to avoid being tackled in the latter halves.
  • Pausing/Un-Pausing the game stops musical ditties in various places which speeds up action of the game. These are performed frame perfect as soon as possible in all instances.
  • Once the 2nd half of the Super Bowl is beaten, the game restarts the Super Bowl and loops. After the final input of this TAS, one half worth of time needs to run out in the restarted Super Bowl to reach the 'Game Over' screen.

TAS Speed strats not (currently) used in human runs.

Through the first few halves of play, there is a counter-intuitive strategy used to speed up the run. While the quickest way to get a touchdown is to run the kickoff back for the TD, it's actually the slower method of progressing through the first three halves of play.
Running out of bounds on the kickoff forces you to run a play from scrimmage. This does result in a slower touchdown, but it also initiates the timer to countdown. This results in less time on the clock when the touchdown is finally scored. This reduction in time left yields less time spend counting up the score. The time saved in this countdown makes up for the lost time going out of bounds.
Unfortunately, this only works for the first three halves of the game. Starting with the 2nd half of the college game, it's faster to use the human RTA strats to get the touchdown. Entertainment will mostly take a big dive at this point in the run.

Publication Eligibility

Is this run eligible for a Moon tier publication? Maybe more so than it had been before.
Is this run Vault eligible? I would argue that it is.
  • This run utilizes very precise movement strats in the first three halves to avoid being tackled that would be near impossible to accomplish in a human run...at least consistently.
  • It is the fastest known current time for the game.
  • Unless more glitches are found that would somehow speed up the run, I don't foresee any potential improvements. (Though this has already been proven incorrect twice before.)
  • In my opinion, the fastest known run (that is not obviously sub-optimal) of any non-trivial game should be vault eligible regardless of how closely RTA runners can come to matching the final time. This run is not as close to RTA records as the previous submission
  • In my opinion, the fastest known run (that is not obviously sub-optimal) of any non-trivial game should be vault eligible regardless of how crappy the game itself is perceived to be.
  • It will help complete the TASmania project.
Special thanks to Arc and Chamale for their strat ideas.

Noxxa: Replaced movie file with an improved version.
Noxxa: While normally an American Football sports game would fail to qualify for the Vault per its rules on sports games (specifically on fixed-time sports), this particular game with its touchdown goal rather than time goal and some reasonable precision requirements can qualify. That said, it still is quite slow-paced, repetitive, and has little of appeal visually or aurally. Accepting for the Vault.
feos: Pub.

TASVideoAgent
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This topic is for the purpose of discussing #5838: DrD2k9's NES 10-Yard Fight (Japan) in 09:21.13
ViGadeomes
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Yes vote for improvments and for a higher entertainment value :)
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Meh for entertainment, but I don't see why it wouldn't make the vault.
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Faster and more entertaining than the previous submission! Yes please.
Chamale
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Why is it faster to use RTA strats after the first three halves? Is it just that it's not possible to outmaneuver the AI defenders without releasing the Up button? Or is it related to the clock having only 30 seconds on it? Also, did you test running out of bounds instead of running directly into the defenders? For example, in High School first half, that stops the first play at your 41-yard line instead of your 44-yard line, so it's slightly sooner and will let the clock run down a bit more.
DrD2k9
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Chamale wrote:
Why is it faster to use RTA strats after the first three halves? Is it just that it's not possible to outmaneuver the AI defenders without releasing the Up button? Or is it related to the clock having only 30 seconds on it?
Correct on the timer. I tested through every half until it stopped being beneficial to run a regular play; after the first 3 halves.
Also, did you test running out of bounds instead of running directly into the defenders? For example, in High School first half, that stops the first play at your 41-yard line instead of your 44-yard line, so it's slightly sooner and will let the clock run down a bit more.
I did not consider running out of bounds. I may look into this, but it will have to wait. I'm focused on other projects at the moment. I'm guessing that going OOB instead of being tackled will change the RNG of what formation the defense chooses. If so, all the dodging will then need redone from scratch. If not, it may be easy to update and re-sync by simply adding L or R to go OOB then add a few frames for the extra few yards to reach the endzone. EDIT: Ok I had a few brief moments to look at this. Running out of bounds does indeed result in a different defensive formation. I didn't yet have time to TAS in all the dodging to see if it indeed yields a faster half or not than in the current submission. As the defense is definitely a different formation it will require at least 2-3 halves of completely redone TAS work if it is indeed faster. The reason I say 2-3 is that in the first half of college, the extra distance to run might fully run out the clock and result in a slower half than running the play as currently submitted. I will test further as I am able. Leaving the current submission for now.
Arc
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The extra point attempts can be completed faster by running forward and letting the other team tackle the kicker.
DrD2k9
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You guys are awesome. I love the collaboration here.
Arc wrote:
The extra point attempts can be completed faster by running forward and letting the other team tackle the kicker.
I actually figured this one out myself while testing out the stuff mentioned above. I've already updated my run, I just need someone with power to update the submission file. EDIT: Thank you, Mothrayas END EDIT Running out of bounds did yield faster halves. As did getting tackled instead of extra points. This extra point strat specifically allowed for a major reduction of frames (that I could have done before if I had thought about it); I stopped input mid way through the kick return on the 2nd half of the super bowl, cutting out a TON of frames. The run will still play through to the 'game over' screen. The score total is just smaller due to missed PAT opportunities. I'll be updating the submission text and temp encode asap.
fsvgm777
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Why did you use the QuickNES core instead of the much more accurate NESHawk core?
Steam Community page - Cohost profile Oh, I'm just a concerned observer.
DrD2k9
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fsvgm777 wrote:
Why did you use the QuickNES core instead of the much more accurate NESHawk core?
I had recently upgraded to a 64-bit version of windows and installed BizHawk 2.2.1. I didn't realize the installation defaulted to QuickNES core and ran the whole TAS in those settings. If this is a reason the run can't be accepted, I guess I can try and convert it over to NESHawk Core. 2 Side Notes: 1) I was unaware that there was that drastic of a difference in accuracy. Why is QuickNES default if it's less accurate? 2) I've unfortunately had to downgrade my laptop back to 32-bit windows. If I do convert this run to NESHawk, it will be a different/older emulator version.
adelikat
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1) Quicknes is still a good deal more accurate than fceux 2) Quicknes runs allowed for TASVideos publications 3) if anyone argues with 2, I'd like to hear a justification for fceux 4) NEShawk is definitely preferred though, if that's a reasonable thing to convert a movie too. We do prefer accuracy when possible. 5) You can choose your core for a movie, just switch to neshawk then record a movie 6) You can convert a movie to neshawk with some manual editing of the movie file, may or may not sync though 7) quicknes is the default because it is VERY fast, and has good accuracy, a perfect choice for casual play. Default settings are for casual play because it is an emulator, not a TASing tool. It is expected that TASers are more pro users and can pick the settings necessary to make a good TAS
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
DrD2k9
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adelikat wrote:
1) Quicknes is still a good deal more accurate than fceux 2) Quicknes runs allowed for TASVideos publications 3) if anyone argues with 2, I'd like to hear a justification for fceux 4) NEShawk is definitely preferred though, if that's a reasonable thing to convert a movie too. We do prefer accuracy when possible. 5) You can choose your core for a movie, just switch to neshawk then record a movie 6) You can convert a movie to neshawk with some manual editing of the movie file, may or may not sync though 7) quicknes is the default because it is VERY fast, and has good accuracy, a perfect choice for casual play. Default settings are for casual play because it is an emulator, not a TASing tool. It is expected that TASers are more pro users and can pick the settings necessary to make a good TAS
Referencing the above: 4) If I convert to NESHawk and the resulting movie is longer, which run takes priority from a publication standpoint? 6) I don't mind converting and re-syncing if it's a worthwhile endeavor 7) This makes sense. I had my original BizHawk set up for NESHawk before upgrading to 64-bit windows. I just forgot to check this particular setting in this one instance after the fresh install. I've definitely corrected this oversight now.
adelikat
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DrD2k9 wrote:
Referencing the above: 4) If I convert to NESHawk and the resulting movie is longer, which run takes priority from a publication standpoint? 6) I don't mind converting and re-syncing if it's a worthwhile endeavor 7) This makes sense. I had my original BizHawk set up for NESHawk before upgrading to 64-bit windows. I just forgot to check this particular setting in this one instance after the fresh install. I've definitely corrected this oversight now.
Re 4: Neither. Regardless of movie length it is still the same movie with the same TAS content. Emulator differences and regional differences are supposed to be factored out when judging a movie's quality over another Re 6) I can help you out if you want
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
DrD2k9
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adelikat wrote:
Re 4: Neither. Regardless of movie length it is still the same movie with the same TAS content. Emulator differences and regional differences are supposed to be factored out when judging a movie's quality over another Re 6) I can help you out if you want
I don't think it's worthwhile trying to convert this from QuickNES to NESHawk Reason: NESHawk core yields one extra lag frame at power-on. This one frame changes RNG. Thus the first play from scrimmage after going out of bounds on the kickoff has a different defensive formation. Essentially this means that all three halves in which a normal play is run would need completely re-TASed. I don't expect this would change the overall length by more than of a handful of frames over the course of the entire run; thus I don't see it being worthwhile to try and convert.
Post subject: Movie published
TASVideoAgent
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This movie has been published. The posts before this message apply to the submission, and posts after this message apply to the published movie. ---- [3650] NES 10-Yard Fight (Japan) by DrD2k9 in 09:21.13