Hm... Are you too hard on yourself to cancel this movie HL? What Mars608 thinks?
As a normal viewer of Mario TASes, personally I like how you managed to get the movie more entertaining with the fire flower, the music-sfx sync is very funny too.
Some people maybe like MrWint's movie of course, you can never please everyone. There is people that vote No only for be an asshole a popular game too, or just to annoy you or give you the opposite, it's the internet after all.
Remember that you improved a movie of an almost mastered game, most people supports you, so un-cancel this please, this movie don't deserve stay in gruefood.
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6437
Location: The land down under.
Responding to Evil_3D.
I mean it's up to him on how he decides. After all on how the submission text explains especially from Mars' point of view is that Lee was the dominant one to do it. Heck look at the comments Lee "presented" on the MrWint TAS.
Yeah, you can call the silent No/Meh Vote assholes for being a popular game, but what's good to know about this is that the Senior Judges can actually view who voted what (correct me here if it's all Judges) and can decide on that or run by those silent voices.
It is a heavily dominated by Yes votes to which I agree but I also need to state than even with this HappyLee couldn't stand someone's Meh vote when all they wrote for the reasons why was pretty much "echoing Spikestuff" he demanded to know more.
There's also only 2 public Meh votes.
Is it because Lee himself fears that his movie won't be Star material? So bloody what? Who gives a shit about what tier you get, if you can submit a damn improvement get comments on it and it gets accepted for being an improvement great...
But if you're acting like Lee is in this situation by being a Princess not wanting these silent No/Meh votes then fine, that's up to him. I'd rather see someone else who's more competent in getting his submission up, voted on, accepted for improvements and Published then someone who isn't liking how silent votes are being presented.
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account.Something better for yourself and also others.
This cancellation leaves a bad taste in my mouth..... This was a yes vote for me, but I understand the perspective of mehs and nos being cast because of the seemingly sub optimal slowdowns. However, I think you would be batsh*t crazy to argue that a lot of the mehs and nos aren't related to Mr Wint's run and the ensuing argument. If you are sincerely voting no because of the movie itself, that's quite alright. If you're voting no because HL's treatment of Mr. Wint upset you, well.... I'm not sure if there's validity in that. But at any rate, a real shame this was cancelled, it should be on this site, which exists to house the fastest TASes held to the most stringent standards, does it not?
Joined: 12/28/2013
Posts: 396
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
NotoriouslyEpic wrote:
This cancellation leaves a bad taste in my mouth..... This was a yes vote for me, but I understand the perspective of mehs and nos being cast because of the seemingly sub optimal slowdowns. However, I think you would be batsh*t crazy to argue that a lot of the mehs and nos aren't related to Mr Wint's run and the ensuing argument. If you are sincerely voting no because of the movie itself, that's quite alright. If you're voting no because HL's treatment of Mr. Wint upset you, well.... I'm not sure if there's validity in that. But at any rate, a real shame this was cancelled, it should be on this site, which exists to house the fastest TASes held to the most stringent standards, does it not?
Indeed, I think it's pretty obvious most of the 'no' votes are from people who sided with MrWint in the previous discussion, and not from people who truly disliked the movie. That's not how one is supposed to vote. It's comprehensible why HappyLee is upset.
BTW, a solid yes vote from me! It's amazing 2 more cycles could be shaved off from MrWint's TAS. Awesome work, you two!
Before I get started, I'd like to say that I've currently abstained from voting (although this could change in the future). It's also worth noting that Spikestuff already covered a lot of what I think, but given the current situation, I'll elaborate:
This run is quite obviously very impressive. It's great to see improvements still coming to the "warpless" Super Mario Bros. branch, even after all this time, and the run itself is also very entertaining on it's own. The only problem for me is that I find it less entertaining than the current published run. After re-reading some of the boasts on the other submission, such as when HappyLee wrote:
we can submit a TAS right now with equal time but A LOT more entertaining
I'm left a bit baffled. Aside from the fact that this makes the comment feel intentionally spiteful, it's implication meant that I went into this expecting a more entertaining run and was let down. It's always sad to see some of the best artistry get obsoleted and this puts my vote for entertainment somewhere around "meh", depending on what perspective I look at it from.
As for the cancellation, I've seen plenty of entertaining runs get a lot of unexplained neutral and negative votes. It's just one of those things that happens, especially when there's some debate or controversy surrounding a run. Heck, a majority of my votes are silent because I don't think anything useful needs to be added other than the answer to the question of whether or not I found it entertaining. The judges factor all of this in to their decision, and cancelling your submission because "too many voters voted "no" or "meh" for unknown reasons" just implies to me that you think your runs are above the audience input.
Don't get me wrong though, overall I'm ecstatic to see another improvement to such a popular run and the hard work both HappyLee and Mars608 is very evident in the end product. It's just a shame to see a run improved in one way but also degraded in another, even if these differences are both small.
I'm not as active as I once was, but I can be reached here if I should be needed.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Oh! I was planning to enjoy the comparison encode. Then this happened.
OK, but can I ask, what this cancellation is trying to achieve exactly?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I think there are some people here who have misunderstood HappyLee's intentions with the cancellation, though some others seem to get it. To clarify (and HappyLee, of course please tell me if I'm wrong), HappyLee wrote:
"Setting to cancelled for one day because too many voters voted "no" or "meh" for unknown reasons."
To me, this clearly means that HappyLee believes this page is currently receiving a large amount of attention from people who are not voting in good faith, whether because they have been linked here from an external source, or are users who got caught up in the drama but haven't actually watched the video. Since cancelled submissions can't be voted on, HappyLee is using this feature to temporarily block voting, for one day, until hopefully those voters have calmed down or moved on.
Now, I have no idea if HappyLee's interpretation of those votes is correct, and I have no idea how the site staff feels about cancellation being used this way. I'm just here to shed light on what's going on for folks who maybe think he's taking his ball and going home or something. I'm quite sure that's not the case, and I am confident this run will be published as the clear improvement it is.
----
On a more personal note, I'd also like to ask everyone to take a step back and treat each other with a bit more respect. HappyLee is inarguably one of the most accomplished and dedicated TASers of all time, and has put a really massive amount of effort into TASing SMB1 in the way he finds satisfying, and we've all benefitted. It's no surprise that the sudden encroachment of a totally new kind of TASing that threatened to beat out his own submission had an emotional impact. It would've hit you pretty hard, too, to imagine your decade-long project being undercut from out of nowhere with a method you don't like.
It's unfortunate that things happened how they did, but I think HappyLee has done a great job in walking back from some of his more incendiary initial comments, and he and MrWint reached an amicable resolution. I think we all owe it to both of them not to put any more fuel on this fire, and just let the run stand on its own.
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6437
Location: The land down under.
Personman wrote:
Since cancelled submissions can't be voted on, HappyLee is using this feature to temporarily block voting, for one day, until hopefully those voters have calmed down or moved on.
Actually no they still can. There's no such thing as "blocked voting".
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account.Something better for yourself and also others.
It's just one of those things that happens, especially when there's some debate or controversy surrounding a run.
Except this particular run shouldn't be controversy at all. It's two solid improvements over a run of a very old and important category of an already maxed out game, and we did it without additional tools.
The reason for the cancellation is simple. I'm not happy with some people here who didn't take voting seriously, of whom in this case there are too many. With so many "no" or "meh" votes, I have every reason to believe that maybe our hard work doesn't belong to TASVideos after all.
For a maxed out game like SMB, entertainment choices mean everything. Mario could have just run from the beginning to the end, which is so easy. Yet no one takes entertainment as seriously as I do, not even Mars608. I've been tirelessly digging out new entertainment strategies just to make the whole running process less boring. No one can imagine how pissed off I am to hear some people saying that this is somehow less entertaining than MrWint's run without providing evidence or details. Yes, entertainment can be partially subjective, but at least don't let your feelings go over the facts.
Like I said earlier, if I really were to criticize MrWint's run, the easiest way is to start from entertainment, because that's what I value the most, and I can talk about it all day. Since some people brought up the comparison of entertainment to MrWint's run, I thought a lot yesterday about whether I should compare entertainment and talk about details seriously, but then I decided not to start on it this time, because I still wanted to be nice.
So all I say is this: I didn't have to be so hard on myself when making this run and spend so much effort trying to bring this run into a new level of SMB TASing, just to have my work degraded by some people here. I could have done this the easy way, without having to worry about how to deal with every jump, every fireball, every detail, every new and exciting ways of killing enemies, new ways to show more glitches of this game, or where to slow down for entertainment. If people here can't appreciate it, why should I bother submitting my work on TASVideos at the highest standard possible? I could care less.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
From my understanding of how things are done on this site, improvement is generally considered from the speed perspective of the time to finish the run; and obsoletion is based on time...not entertainment value. Entertainment is a secondary consideration for obsoleting two runs of equal duration. As far as speed improvement is concerned, the method how the improvement(s) is/are found is not important for acceptance to the site; the faster run is still faster.
The only reason I see to make this type of egocentric statement is to puff yourself up and suggest that your methods make you superior to others. As with anyone else's, your methods aren't superior...they are just different.
HappyLee wrote:
The reason for the cancellation is simple. I'm not happy with some people here who didn't take voting seriously, of whom in this case there are too many.
You are not a mind reader. You don't know why any of the 'no/meh' voters (or 'yes' voters for that matter) voted the way they did unless they detailed their reasons in the discussion. All you have is speculation which is based on your assumed theory that people are voting negatively ONLY because of what happened with a different submission.
While your theory MAY be correct; it's also just as possible that your theory MAY be incorrect, and people voted the way they did because it's actually their opinion of the run. Everyone finds different things entertaining and unentertaining.
No matter how fantastic/entertaining you feel your own work is, it's wrong to project your hurt ego into someone else's reasoning for picking the voting options they chose. Doing so again suggests an egocentric view that you and your desires are more important to the site than the perspectives of the community.
HappyLee wrote:
With so many "no" or "meh" votes, I have every reason to believe that maybe our hard work doesn't belong to TASVideos after all.
First, I find this an odd statement to throw out after un-cancelling the submission. EDIT: correction...before. But it still seems odd to me to un-cancel and have this statement.
Second, considering the percentages of votes for the three options; there's no reason to assume the no/meh votes are enough to prevent this run from attaining at least moon tier. It'd be highly unlikely to attain 100% positive response for ANY game or TAS.
Third, if you are unhappy with the way the site/community handles things, you are welcome to stop contributing. No one is forcing you to participate.
That said, I'm sure there are a significant number of people here who would be saddened to lose an accomplished TASer from our ranks.DISCLAIMER: I have not voted on this run...and will refrain from doing so.EDIT 2: I changed my mind and have voted.
Just my two cents here.
This is an obvious improvement over a published run. It is interesting that it was done without a simulation. When you create a simulation you always end up approximating some things, and it might be the case that in your approximations you mistakenly removed an element that would enable an optimization.
So far, some complaints have been targeted at HappyLee with respect to the context of his submission, which even if true, would not lead to the rejection of this movie. Also, it is clear that the authors took some time to put the movie at the entertainment level that was considered acceptable for this publication's history. The movie is not a "run to the right".
About deliberate manipulation of entertainment votes, it's clear that the movie, if published, will get entertainment ratings, and if it is acceptable to give whatever number that people want without regards to their actual entertainment perception, the authors' movie will be rated based on something that is fake, and therefore meaningless.
So, if the allegation that people are manipulating the votes for political reasons is true, the decision to cancel is justified, because then the site would claim to rate something for entertainment without in fact doing so.
From my part, I think it's entirely unreasonable that every movie before this one had a given level of entertainment preferences and, somehow, coincidentally, after people stir a bit of controversy in the submission thread, the preferences of many users suddenly change and they don't find HappyLee's choices entertaining anymore. While everyone is allowed to exercise their subjectivity in rating something, no one deserves special treatment if the author has good reasons to believe the "rating" is bullshit also.
I kind of got an overdose of "every".
Every enemy that could be killed was killed.
Every trick that was possible to do was done at every opportunity.
Every boss was killed with fireballs (except the last one).
Every time Mario could, he shot fireballs at everything, including enemies that can't be killed with it. And every fire breath from bowser/koopa was hit with a fireball or more, for example.
Almost (combo breaker ^^) every castle had at least one part with Mario shooting according to the music.
That's why I did find it predictable after a couple of levels, particularly from the moment the fire flower was taken. Predictable and relatively repetitive.
There were some tricks that I liked, one off tricks and surprises, but they ended up mostly drowned in the rest for me.
So I get criticism for "doing the best I can" or "showing as much interesting tricks in a TAS as possible". OK, that's new.
It's true that (almost) every enemy that could be killed was killed, because I can't live with the guilt to let a poor enemy go free if I had the chance to kill it. You said it's predictable, but I bet you'll never know how exactly each enemy would be killed. I tried as much new and interesting ways of killing enemies as there is, and how to make the use of each enemy to the extreme. Also, I bet you weren't even sure which enemies belong to "could be killed" category until watching this run, since some of them are just really difficult to kill.
It's true that every castle had music synchronization (except 3-4), and that's because castles tend to be boring since there are basically no enemy to kill. But what you didn't say is that each time I do music synchronization, I use a different beat, so you'll never know what beat I'm going to play.
It's true that every boss (Bowser) was killed with fireballs (except the last one), but it sounds like you've never watched an SMB warpless TAS before.
The part you quoted was more or less just the introduction made with a couple of examples to better explain in the second part how I felt about the entertainment of the movie. Maybe I failed to express myself correctly. For example, the bosses killed with fireballs is something that can be "blamed" on the game, not on the authors, but it still contributes to the repetitiveness I got from watching.
I won't try to explain again my opinion on the entertainment here. But at least I can say why I did that previous post. I saw the controversy, the reactions to it (including yours, of course), I didn't even watch MrWint's TAS. There's almost no doubt that some people voted meh or no because of it all, and not the run itself, we can agree on that. It obviously irked you, to the point of cancelling it for a while. But there are people that genuinely didn't find the run entertaining, it happens with every run. As someone who didn't vote at all because I'm torn between yes and meh, I thought that taking some time to detail why I wasn't as much entertained as you would have liked could be seen as constructive criticism.
I tried as much as I could to not make it look harsh, but it was still taken as some kind of personal attack, as your reply looked like a counter-attack (see the parts that start with "I bet you..."). I think we can blame that on the "atmosphere" of this submission, and my timing was not the best to post, maybe.
If the situation wasn't the same, I probably wouldn't have made the post, but my vote wouldn't become a yes. At least that's what I think, we can't experiment other timelines, sadly :P
To echo what Scepheo said, we're defending our votes because Lee wants to make us feel as if our votes are invalid.
So you're defending your votes, but I'm defending our work which shouldn't get so many unearned "no" or "meh" votes. Like I said, this particular run shouldn't be controversial at all.
then you shouldn't have made it controversial in the first place.
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't
12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!"
Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet
MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish
[Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person
MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol
Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Well, let's give an overview of the discussion. First, xxNKxx says they don't quite see the point in slowing down for entertainment and think it's a bit "wasteful", and then you explain that in your view it's a better choice and xxNKxx understands. So far so good. Then Spikestuff responds to the movie, criticising the lack of accreditation to MrWint in the submission text and says that in comparison, he prefers the direction of that movie and is giving this a Meh. Kung Knut agrees with Spikestuff, also saying that he prefers MrWint's movie and briefly mentions the slight hypocrisy of how the existence of this submission disproves one of your most repeated complaints on MrWint's submission. You then responded to Spikestuff saying that he got the credit he should have gotten and claim he only voted "Meh" out of spite, and then practically make fun of Kung Knut for preferring MrWint's style, saying that if he prefers that he should just not watch TASes. Shortly after, you cancel the movie submission for a day in response to "too many Meh and No votes" in an attempt to band-aid negative reception of the movie and a firey war over what defines entertainment, the voting system and why people are actually voting No etc. begins.
Please tell me, HappyLee, who from this sequence of events you determine started it.
... I don't think these is the personal behavior, it must be organized behavior...
Organized? Seriously? You think there have been secret, non-public discussions with the expressed purpose of bashing HappyLee's TAS?
No one here has confronted Lee personally for anything OTHER than how he has disrespectfully responded to other people's opinions regarding his work (which includes the voting tally).
We have acknowledged his general talent in TASing including this submission. No one has complained that this submission is sloppy/unoptimized. Some have simply expressed their perspectives on why they found the run entertaining or not.
Yes, I called him egocentric before, because he got upset when the voting results were simply different than what he EXPECTED; which he automatically assumed was because of prior forum drama and not directly relating to this submission--some of those 'no/meh' voters have since clarified their vote in this discussion tying it directly to this submission and nothing else.
If HappyLee is going to pout about the vote tallies (which is how I perceive his temporary cancellation), claim others are against him (without evidence) simply because they didn't respond to his work as he EXPECTED, and be unable to accept that not everyone agrees with his assessment of his own work; then I stand by my original opinion. He is taking the arrogant/egocentric position that his opinion of his own work is superior to what others think of it, and that somehow makes them wrong or against him personally.
TL:DR My perspective is that HappyLee is a fantastic TASer, a huge asset to the TASvideos cause of archiving amazing TAS runs, and he would be missed if he chose to remove himself from the community. However, I believe that HappyLee's biggest problem with this submission/discussion is the that he simply can't accept that things didn't turn out exactly as he EXPECTED; and that, in my opinion, is arrogant/egocentric.
FWIW, I changed my mind on voting and have voted 'Yes' for this run as I found it enjoyable to watch.
