Posted: 4/14/2019 7:51 PM
Post subject: Doom pacifist run?
Quote
Warp
Banned User
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
It's actually possible to beat all three episodes of Doom without pressing the fire button even once (ie. no firing, no punching, no chainsaw, nothing), even on ultra-violence. A few levels require some bosses to die, but that can be done by making enemies fight each other. I was wondering if there would be any interest for somebody to make a "pacifist" run of Doom. I think the challenge is interesting.
Posted: 4/14/2019 11:01 PM
Quote
CoolHandMike
He/Him
Editor, Judge, Experienced player (895)
Joined: 3/9/2019
Posts: 695
First edition TAS of 2023 Sega TAS of 2023
I don't know...the Doom games are all about gratuitous violence. Not avoiding it. Same reasoning why I dislike those runs for DOOM games that use heavy OOB to avoid fights. That's my thought on it anyway.
discord: CoolHandMike#0352
Posted: 4/14/2019 11:35 PM
Quote
ShadowWraith
Joined: 8/7/2006
Posts: 344
Pacifist in Doom is categorised as completing a level without any direct action you take that involves attacking causing damage to an enemy, including willingly and knowingly telefragging them. This however allows attacking to open up walls and wake up monsters. Demos exist for pacifist completions of every level except E2M8 and E4M6 here. There is an E2M8 demo here and an E4M6 demo here. I would consider this sufficient to prove that Doom can be completed 'pacifist', assuming you use the community accepted definition of the term.
Posted: 4/14/2019 11:41 PM
Quote
Patashu
He/Him
Joined: 10/2/2005
Posts: 4043
I'd say 'this is borderline possible in RTA and difficult even for TAS to route and execute' is a great category to make a TAS of, assuming it is that hard.
My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu My twitch. I stream mostly shmups & rhythm games http://twitch.tv/patashu My youtube, again shmups and rhythm games and misc stuff: http://youtube.com/user/patashu
Posted: 4/15/2019 5:01 AM
Quote
feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1254)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Char­gogg­a­gogg­man­chaugg­a­gogg­chau­bun­a­gung­a­maugg
NES TAS of 2011
Great reason indeed.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 4/15/2019 6:52 AM
Quote
Radiant
Player (26)
Joined: 8/29/2011
Posts: 1206
Location: Amsterdam
Patashu wrote:
I'd say 'this is borderline possible in RTA and difficult even for TAS to route and execute' is a great category to make a TAS of, assuming it is that hard.
I concur.
Indie game developer
Posted: 4/15/2019 7:30 AM
Quote
Warp
Banned User
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
The only slight drawback in terms of entertainment I know of is that beating the episode 2 boss takes a very long time (barring some kind of glitch exploit), AFAIK. That's because the only way to beat it is to have a Lost Soul attack it, and it takes forever to kill it. OTOH, personally I wouldn't mind. (Even if there were some kind of glitch that could be used to kill it faster, I'm not sure it would be in the spirit of the category. As a "pacifist" you are supposed to never harm any enemy directly, and abusing some kind of glitch to kill an enemy could be considered in principle harming it directly...)
Posted: 4/17/2019 11:21 AM
Quote
c-square
Active player (378)
Joined: 9/25/2011
Posts: 652
Speedy TAS of 2015
I love pacifist runs, and one that subverts the original design of the game (namely kill everything) is even better. I'd definitely look forward to a pacifist "ultra-violence" run.
Posted: 4/17/2019 11:54 AM
Quote
Evil_3D
Editor, Experienced player (586)
Joined: 10/22/2016
Posts: 581
Location: Argentina
Sega TAS of 2019 Speedy TAS of 2019
I don't know... for a pacifist run I prefer to see a undertale run, pacifist and doom cannot be on the same sentence :p. but I'm still hoping for a 4 (or 1) Player(s) 100% TAS of any doom game, ultimate, 2, TNT, Plutonia or even comunity megawads.
You can see more TASes on my youtube channel
Posted: 4/17/2019 5:09 PM
Quote
Dimon12321
He/Him
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (596)
Joined: 4/5/2014
Posts: 1222
Location: Romania
c-square wrote:
and one that subverts the original design of the game (namely kill everything) is even better.
I found a pair of moments where Light_Speed's TAS could be improved, but it will require much patience and a lot of luck not to beat any stage slover than he did. Also I don't know if instant turns and other XDRE stuffs, that bypass human input, are legit for it. Too bad it's not allowed even to harm anybody. It would solve many problems with superlong boss fights. As for Episode 1, it's possible to glitch out of the map with the help of harming a demon. During its pain animation, you can create a 45 degree angle and run OoB. It would save so much time!
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
Posted: 7/18/2019 2:50 PM
Quote
Dimon12321
He/Him
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (596)
Joined: 4/5/2014
Posts: 1222
Location: Romania
feos wrote:
Great reason indeed.
Great, not great - everyone decides himself. Here is my first attempt and probably the last one: Link to video lmp file is here: User movie #56658576548314290
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
Posted: 7/18/2019 4:33 PM
Quote
Kenttsu
Joined: 1/31/2018
Posts: 19
Location: Finland
It's an interesting movement/AI manipulation puzzle, but honestly I feel that there's not much entertainment value left. Getting constantly blocked by the enemies is annoying and makes it feel sub-optimal (even if it wasn't).
Posted: 7/18/2019 5:17 PM
Quote
Dimon12321
He/Him
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (596)
Joined: 4/5/2014
Posts: 1222
Location: Romania
Kenttsu wrote:
It's an interesting movement/AI manipulation puzzle, but honestly I feel that there's not much entertainment value left. Getting constantly blocked by the enemies is annoying and makes it feel sub-optimal (even if it wasn't).
It's not a ninja game with all those dodging movements =) I think the category has a bad tradeoff between entertainment and speed. Something like "Hey, not too rough! + fast monsters" would be better. There will be less blockades and monsters will be more aggresive.
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
Posted: 7/18/2019 10:48 PM
Quote
moozooh
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away
I did not find it boring, but the constant interruption of movement did become notably irritating halfway through. I can see it becoming a much more pronounced problem over the course of a full run. Would choosing a lower difficulty level (e.g. Hurt me plenty) help mitigate the problem? Could it possibly provide the right balance between the supposed challenge and smoothly flowing movement?
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 7/19/2019 10:56 AM
Quote
Dimon12321
He/Him
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (596)
Joined: 4/5/2014
Posts: 1222
Location: Romania
moozooh wrote:
I did not find it boring, but the constant interruption of movement did become notably irritating halfway through. I can see it becoming a much more pronounced problem over the course of a full run. Would choosing a lower difficulty level (e.g. Hurt me plenty) help mitigate the problem? Could it possibly provide the right balance between the supposed challenge and smoothly flowing movement?
I think HMP mitigates this problem, maybe even with fast monsters to speed up all those infights. Also, then it's possible a take shorter route in E1M6.
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
Posted: 10/2/2019 2:53 AM
Quote
c-square
Active player (378)
Joined: 9/25/2011
Posts: 652
Speedy TAS of 2015
As you point out in the comments of your video, there's a faster pacifist run, and it's no damage as well. It's amazing, and I'd love it if it was submitted at TASvideos! Link to video
Posted: 10/2/2019 8:51 AM
Quote
Dimon12321
He/Him
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (596)
Joined: 4/5/2014
Posts: 1222
Location: Romania
c-square wrote:
As you point out in the comments of your video, there's a faster pacifist run, and it's no damage as well. It's amazing, and I'd love it if it was submitted at TASvideos!
ClumsyDoomer said he will eventually post all the episodes on doomworld if everything will be fine.
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
Posted: 12/7/2019 6:50 PM
Quote
Dimon12321
He/Him
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (596)
Joined: 4/5/2014
Posts: 1222
Location: Romania
c-square wrote:
It's amazing, and I'd love it if it was submitted at TASvideos!
I got a respond from ClumsyDoomer about submission possibility. Here it is:
Q: Will you post it on TASVideos? A: Not sure, it's a pretty unripe run, not only there are no notable challenges in this particular episode (such as mandatory kills), but it also kind of violates its own ruleset in the end lol. Episodes 2 and 4 are going to be more interesing, if i ever finish them
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
Posted: 4/21/2020 3:12 PM
Quote
Dimon12321
He/Him
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (596)
Joined: 4/5/2014
Posts: 1222
Location: Romania
Episode 2: Link to video Episode 3: Link to video
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
Posted: 4/28/2020 2:04 PM
Quote
Enterim
Joined: 2/28/2012
Posts: 160
Location: Philadelphia
Thanks for linking here! Very fascinating runs.
Posted: 5/18/2020 10:15 AM
Quote
Dimon12321
He/Him
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (596)
Joined: 4/5/2014
Posts: 1222
Location: Romania
Finally, Episode 4: Link to video
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
Posted: 5/19/2020 9:44 AM
Quote
Clumsydoomer
Player (120)
Joined: 3/21/2015
Posts: 29
Location: 66th region, Russia
Computer TAS of 2017
Hello, glad to see the interest. I'm preparing them for submission right now but there's a couple of questionable moments 1. End of E1M8. This entire movie tetralogy was meant to be a proof of concept, and it ended up proving that it's not possible to finish the game without taking damage. You're obligated to have 20%> health in order to finish E1M8, so the only way to make it fall under the "no damage" category is to use a mod that removes all health pickups and sets player's HP to 1. 2. Getting damage with an invulnerability powerup. Technically it's still damage, but the player doesn't lose health. All damage effects, such as momentum, still affect the player, and i used an enemy attack to increase my speed one time. What do you think about it? 3. Is it worth it after all? It's the first movie in the category, merely a proof of concept.
Posted: 5/19/2020 11:13 AM
Quote
Radiant
Player (26)
Joined: 8/29/2011
Posts: 1206
Location: Amsterdam
In my opinion, (1) I don't think this is a good reason to use a mod. What actually happens is that on the very last level of the game, at the very end, you get placed in a damaging trap; and the episode ends on a sequel hook once you're almost dead. I suggest you stop input before that happens, and treat it as an unavoidable part of the end of the game. (2) I see no problem with using invulnerability powerups in a no-damage run. You're not taking damage, that's what the powerup is for. (3) I'd vote for it, yes.
Indie game developer
Posted: 5/19/2020 2:40 PM
Quote
Dimon12321
He/Him
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (596)
Joined: 4/5/2014
Posts: 1222
Location: Romania
Here is another answer: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=495345#495345
Memory wrote:
1. Don't use a mod. I think it's reasonable to call it "No Damage" if the only damage taken is required at the VERY end of the game. This is similar to the Swordless Zelda 1 challenge where one is required to get the sword towards the end of the game in order to actually defeat the final boss. 2. If an invulnerability powerup is active, you are by definition, not taking damage. If it was "no hits" run, then it might not be acceptable. 3. Can't say for certain whether or not people would find it entertaining. Only way to determine is through submission really.
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.