Posted: 4/14/2019 7:51 PM
Post subject: Doom pacifist run?
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Warp
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It's actually possible to beat all three episodes of Doom without pressing the fire button even once (ie. no firing, no punching, no chainsaw, nothing), even on ultra-violence. A few levels require some bosses to die, but that can be done by making enemies fight each other. I was wondering if there would be any interest for somebody to make a "pacifist" run of Doom. I think the challenge is interesting.
Posted: 4/14/2019 11:01 PM
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CoolHandMike
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I don't know...the Doom games are all about gratuitous violence. Not avoiding it. Same reasoning why I dislike those runs for DOOM games that use heavy OOB to avoid fights. That's my thought on it anyway.
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Posted: 4/14/2019 11:35 PM
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ShadowWraith
Joined: 8/7/2006
Posts: 344
Pacifist in Doom is categorised as completing a level without any direct action you take that involves attacking causing damage to an enemy, including willingly and knowingly telefragging them. This however allows attacking to open up walls and wake up monsters. Demos exist for pacifist completions of every level except E2M8 and E4M6 here. There is an E2M8 demo here and an E4M6 demo here. I would consider this sufficient to prove that Doom can be completed 'pacifist', assuming you use the community accepted definition of the term.
Posted: 4/14/2019 11:41 PM
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Patashu
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I'd say 'this is borderline possible in RTA and difficult even for TAS to route and execute' is a great category to make a TAS of, assuming it is that hard.
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Posted: 4/15/2019 5:01 AM
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feos
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Great reason indeed.
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Posted: 4/15/2019 6:52 AM
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Radiant
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Patashu wrote:
I'd say 'this is borderline possible in RTA and difficult even for TAS to route and execute' is a great category to make a TAS of, assuming it is that hard.
I concur.
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Posted: 4/15/2019 7:30 AM
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Warp
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The only slight drawback in terms of entertainment I know of is that beating the episode 2 boss takes a very long time (barring some kind of glitch exploit), AFAIK. That's because the only way to beat it is to have a Lost Soul attack it, and it takes forever to kill it. OTOH, personally I wouldn't mind. (Even if there were some kind of glitch that could be used to kill it faster, I'm not sure it would be in the spirit of the category. As a "pacifist" you are supposed to never harm any enemy directly, and abusing some kind of glitch to kill an enemy could be considered in principle harming it directly...)
Posted: 4/17/2019 11:21 AM
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c-square
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I love pacifist runs, and one that subverts the original design of the game (namely kill everything) is even better. I'd definitely look forward to a pacifist "ultra-violence" run.
Posted: 4/17/2019 11:54 AM
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Evil_3D
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I don't know... for a pacifist run I prefer to see a undertale run, pacifist and doom cannot be on the same sentence :p. but I'm still hoping for a 4 (or 1) Player(s) 100% TAS of any doom game, ultimate, 2, TNT, Plutonia or even comunity megawads.
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Posted: 4/17/2019 5:09 PM
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Dimon12321
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c-square wrote:
and one that subverts the original design of the game (namely kill everything) is even better.
I found a pair of moments where Light_Speed's TAS could be improved, but it will require much patience and a lot of luck not to beat any stage slover than he did. Also I don't know if instant turns and other XDRE stuffs, that bypass human input, are legit for it. Too bad it's not allowed even to harm anybody. It would solve many problems with superlong boss fights. As for Episode 1, it's possible to glitch out of the map with the help of harming a demon. During its pain animation, you can create a 45 degree angle and run OoB. It would save so much time!
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
Posted: 7/18/2019 2:50 PM
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Dimon12321
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feos wrote:
Great reason indeed.
Great, not great - everyone decides himself. Here is my first attempt and probably the last one: Link to video lmp file is here: User movie #56658576548314290
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
Posted: 7/18/2019 4:33 PM
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Kenttsu
Joined: 1/31/2018
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It's an interesting movement/AI manipulation puzzle, but honestly I feel that there's not much entertainment value left. Getting constantly blocked by the enemies is annoying and makes it feel sub-optimal (even if it wasn't).
Posted: 7/18/2019 5:17 PM
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Dimon12321
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Kenttsu wrote:
It's an interesting movement/AI manipulation puzzle, but honestly I feel that there's not much entertainment value left. Getting constantly blocked by the enemies is annoying and makes it feel sub-optimal (even if it wasn't).
It's not a ninja game with all those dodging movements =) I think the category has a bad tradeoff between entertainment and speed. Something like "Hey, not too rough! + fast monsters" would be better. There will be less blockades and monsters will be more aggresive.
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
Posted: 7/18/2019 10:48 PM
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moozooh
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I did not find it boring, but the constant interruption of movement did become notably irritating halfway through. I can see it becoming a much more pronounced problem over the course of a full run. Would choosing a lower difficulty level (e.g. Hurt me plenty) help mitigate the problem? Could it possibly provide the right balance between the supposed challenge and smoothly flowing movement?
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 7/19/2019 10:56 AM
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Dimon12321
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moozooh wrote:
I did not find it boring, but the constant interruption of movement did become notably irritating halfway through. I can see it becoming a much more pronounced problem over the course of a full run. Would choosing a lower difficulty level (e.g. Hurt me plenty) help mitigate the problem? Could it possibly provide the right balance between the supposed challenge and smoothly flowing movement?
I think HMP mitigates this problem, maybe even with fast monsters to speed up all those infights. Also, then it's possible a take shorter route in E1M6.
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
Posted: 10/2/2019 2:53 AM
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c-square
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As you point out in the comments of your video, there's a faster pacifist run, and it's no damage as well. It's amazing, and I'd love it if it was submitted at TASvideos! Link to video
Posted: 10/2/2019 8:51 AM
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Dimon12321
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c-square wrote:
As you point out in the comments of your video, there's a faster pacifist run, and it's no damage as well. It's amazing, and I'd love it if it was submitted at TASvideos!
ClumsyDoomer said he will eventually post all the episodes on doomworld if everything will be fine.
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
Posted: 12/7/2019 6:50 PM
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Dimon12321
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c-square wrote:
It's amazing, and I'd love it if it was submitted at TASvideos!
I got a respond from ClumsyDoomer about submission possibility. Here it is:
Q: Will you post it on TASVideos? A: Not sure, it's a pretty unripe run, not only there are no notable challenges in this particular episode (such as mandatory kills), but it also kind of violates its own ruleset in the end lol. Episodes 2 and 4 are going to be more interesing, if i ever finish them
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
Posted: 4/21/2020 3:12 PM
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Dimon12321
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Episode 2: Link to video Episode 3: Link to video
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
Posted: 4/28/2020 2:04 PM
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Enterim
Joined: 2/28/2012
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Thanks for linking here! Very fascinating runs.
Posted: 5/18/2020 10:15 AM
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Dimon12321
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Finally, Episode 4: Link to video
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
Posted: 5/19/2020 9:44 AM
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Clumsydoomer
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Hello, glad to see the interest. I'm preparing them for submission right now but there's a couple of questionable moments 1. End of E1M8. This entire movie tetralogy was meant to be a proof of concept, and it ended up proving that it's not possible to finish the game without taking damage. You're obligated to have 20%> health in order to finish E1M8, so the only way to make it fall under the "no damage" category is to use a mod that removes all health pickups and sets player's HP to 1. 2. Getting damage with an invulnerability powerup. Technically it's still damage, but the player doesn't lose health. All damage effects, such as momentum, still affect the player, and i used an enemy attack to increase my speed one time. What do you think about it? 3. Is it worth it after all? It's the first movie in the category, merely a proof of concept.
Posted: 5/19/2020 11:13 AM
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Radiant
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In my opinion, (1) I don't think this is a good reason to use a mod. What actually happens is that on the very last level of the game, at the very end, you get placed in a damaging trap; and the episode ends on a sequel hook once you're almost dead. I suggest you stop input before that happens, and treat it as an unavoidable part of the end of the game. (2) I see no problem with using invulnerability powerups in a no-damage run. You're not taking damage, that's what the powerup is for. (3) I'd vote for it, yes.
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Posted: 5/19/2020 2:40 PM
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Dimon12321
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Here is another answer: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=495345#495345
Memory wrote:
1. Don't use a mod. I think it's reasonable to call it "No Damage" if the only damage taken is required at the VERY end of the game. This is similar to the Swordless Zelda 1 challenge where one is required to get the sword towards the end of the game in order to actually defeat the final boss. 2. If an invulnerability powerup is active, you are by definition, not taking damage. If it was "no hits" run, then it might not be acceptable. 3. Can't say for certain whether or not people would find it entertaining. Only way to determine is through submission really.
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.