Hello everybody. After a 3 month long hiatus from posting TASes to TASVideos while working on TASing all of the challenges in NFL Street 1, I am finally ready to submit another TAS to TASVideos: NFL Street 2's NFL Challenge mode.

Mechanics:

Similar to NFL Street 1, NFL Street 2 allows your player to style around the field, to juke, hurdle and stiff arm opponents, and of course to perform basic football moves such as running, passing the ball, diving, etc. However, NFL Street 2 has some key differences in gameplay mechanics from NFL Street 1. You can perform "wall moves" by holding L and attempting to make a pass, a catch, a juke, or a dive near a wall. If done correctly, your player will jump off the wall and then perform the corresponding play. Additionally, there are "hotspots" in NFL Street 2, which are posters along the walls of the stadiums. Doing a wall move off of one of these posters will award you 20,000 style points, which is useful for challenges that require getting a lot of style points quickly.

NFL Challenge Mode:

In both NFL Street 1 and NFL Street 2, the main mode of gameplay is a mode called NFL Challenge mode. In NFL Street 1, NFL Challenge mode consists of a series of optional challenges to unlock more skills for your players and a total of 41 required games: 1 against each of the 32 NFL teams, 1 against an All-Star team with the best players in each division (there are 8 of these total) and a final game against the NFL Legends, which are a team of all-time great NFL Players. Each game features the ruleset of "first team to reach 36 points wins." Once all 41 games have been beaten, you have beaten NFL Challenge.
In NFL Street 2, NFL Challenge mode is very different. You are given 150 days to prepare your team for a tournament against all the other NFL teams, with the winner taking on the NFL Legends. In order to make days pass, you need to complete challenges (which each also increase the skill level of your players). Once you get down to 5 days left or less, then the tournament will open up, and you will have the option of playing in it. Thus, for a TAS, the following is the fastest strategy to beat NFL Street 2: Choose the combination of challenges that allows you to get to 5 days or less left as fast as possible, beat the 5 NFL teams needed to win the tournament (which similar to NFL Street 1 has a "first team to 36 points wins" format), and then, lastly, beat the NFL Legends team.
There are not very many different possibilities for the number of days that a challenge can take up. A challenge can take anywhere between 1 and 5 days or it can take 17 days. The simplest/easiest challenges take 1 to 2 days. The harder challenges take 3 days. All of the challenges that take 4 days require beating another challenge that takes 2 days to unlock them, and there is only one 5 day challenge in the entire game. Almost all of the challenges can only be done one time. The one exception to this is the NFL Player Challenge, which takes 17 days per challenge. The goal of this challenge is to complete 3 wall passes and 3 wall touchdown dives against an NFL team of your choice before either team scores 24 points (or on the same play in which your score goes above 24). Winning this challenge lets you take a player from this NFL team to put on your team.
Taken altogether, the fastest way to get down to 5 days left (from the original 150 days) is to first do the NFL Player Challenge 8 times to get down to only 14 days left. From there, you can't do the NFL Player challenge again (since there are less than 17 days left), so you have to do at least 3 more challenges from there to get to 5 days left. With all of this background information out of the way, I will now summarize what route I actually took in this TAS.

The TAS:

The first challenge I did was the challenge Highlight Reel in the Eagle Heights District (in the Backlot section of the district). This challenge requires scoring 35,000 style points or more in 1 play, and consumes 2 days. I did this by getting a wall catch off of a hotspot and getting a first down, which was enough to get a little more than 35,000 style points.
After this, the challenge Highlight Reel 2 is unlocked, which I do next. In this challenge, you need to score 50,000 style points or more in 1 play, and the challenge consumes 4 days. I did this by getting a wall catch off of a hotspot, spinning to avoid getting tackled (which gave me +7,000 style points) and then running for a first down.
After this, I went on to do the 8 NFL Player Challenges in the backlot of the Eagle Heights District. I did the first 4 against the Bengals, and the last 4 against the Bears, simply because they appear first in the list of teams and thus require the least scrolling. Each of these games had the same format: On my first play, I did a wall pass, and then dove for a wall touchdown at the end of the play. Then I intentionally failed the 2 point conversion to save time. Then I intercepted the computers' pass on the next play, then I did another wall pass and wall touchdown dive play. Then I intentionally failed another 2 point conversion. Then I got another interception off of the computer. Then I got one last wall pass and wall touchdown dive to win the challenge. By doing all of this, I was able to beat each of these 8 challenges in the minimum number of plays (which is 7).
After this, I still had 8 days left, so I then did the Outstyle 3 challenge in the Sportsplex area in the Eagle Heights District. In this challenge, you need to be ahead in style points over your opponent after 1 defensive stand, so I simply intercepted the ball once and ended the challenge.
After that, the NFL Tournament opened up in Gridiron Park in the Downtown District, so I went there. Each game there was a game to 36. I played against the following teams in this order: the Giants, the Patriots, the Saints, the Jets, the Raiders, and the NFL Legends.
My strategy for each of these games to 36 was as follows: get a passing touchdown and passing 2 point conversion to start off each game, manipulate the CPU to call a quick option play on the next play, and then steal the pitch and recover it in the endzone for a touchdown. This stolen pitch play was then followed by another passing 2 point conversion, and this cycle of stealing a pitch and getting a 2 point conversion was repeated until I got up to 30 points, at which point I intentionally failed the 1 point conversion to save time, and then stole pitch for a touchdown on the next play to win the game.
After finishing the whole tournament, I went back to the main menu and played the credits, at which point my TAS ended.

Goal:

The goal of this movie was to beat the NFL Challenge mode in the fastest amount of time possible at any cost. Currently, this beats the RTA world record of this category by about 35 minutes (this run is 25 minutes, and the world record for a human is a little over an hour).

Movie Creation Process:

In order to manipulate the computer to call the play I wanted on the next drive, I would have to do random actions at the end of the previous play until one combination gave me the desired play. For example, as one player was catching a 2 point conversion or being tackled, with the other player I would jump up in the air, dive, or run towards an opponent player to advance the games' RNG. This was the main reason why I used 2 players for this TAS (the other reason being that it makes each pass play a little bit faster since you can give your receiver a running start with the second controller, as opposed to waiting until catching the ball to run as occurs when you use only 1 player). For some challenges where I just wanted a quick intercept-able pass, this didn't require too much manipulation. However, for the NFL Tournament games where I wanted a quick backwards lateral on each play (which only has a 1% chance of occurring on a given play), this took a lot of effort. The most time I spent on a single 2 point conversion in this TAS was 2 hours. All of that time was spent trying to change the end of the play to make the computer throw a quick pitch on the next play (as the computer refused to call a quick pitch on that play for a long time due to random chance).
Each game in this TAS takes the minimum possible number of plays to complete, and the minimum total number of challenges/games are played in this TAS. Thus, I believe that the challenges I chose for my route represent the fastest route for TASing this game (i.e. there isn't a faster combination of other challenges that could have been done).

Improvements:

On any given play, there is a chance that the computer will delay 5 seconds between selecting a play and hiking the ball, 6 seconds, or 7 seconds. This seems to be chosen by random chance, and could be manipulated in a manner similar to how I manipulated the CPU to always call a quick option play. I went back through my movie and counted a total of 49 seconds that could be improved from this movie just by manipulating the computer to hike the ball after 5 seconds for every play.
The main reason why I didn't bother to optimize this is that there's only a 1-3% chance of a quick option play being called, and if I were trying to make the computer also delay only 5 seconds, then each quick option play with a 5 second delay would have a 0.3-1% chance of being selected of all possible plays. If I had some idea of how the RNG worked in this game or knew what memory address stores what the next play the computer has called is, then I might have tried to save this time. However, given that I don't have this information, I would have needed to brute force random inputs to try to get this to happen, which would triple the length of each game to TAS (if each play took somewhere between 20 minutes to an hour and a half, then this would increase the length of time to TAS a play to being between an hour and four and a half hours roughly). Some might see this as laziness on my part, but i've already spent the last 5 months TASing NFL Street and NFL Street 2 pretty much exclusively, and redoing this TAS with all of the timesaves would take about 2 months (I won't have as much time to TAS in the upcoming weeks as I do now). In any event, I adopt the convention in the movie guidelines of ignoring timesaves that have a 1/300 chance of occurring. Besides, there is one more reason listed in the next section which explains why I didn't want to devote 2 months to this timesave for something which a casual viewer of the TAS wouldn't be likely to notice...

Reasons for Rejecting this Movie:

This may seem like kind of an odd section to have in the submission text for a TAS, but here we are! The movie publication guidelines currently have a rule that no more than 2 sports games from the same series on the same console can be published to the Vault. Since NFL Street 1 for the GameCube is already published for the Vault, if this movie were accepted for the Vault, then either this movie would have to obsolete my NFL Street 1 movie or this movie would have to be rejected. Quite frankly, I'm not sure if this game is really entertaining enough to deserve being placed into Moons tier, which means that the movie is likely Vault-bound. For that reason, this movie is likely to be rejected, and will serve mainly as a test of this rule.

With that disclaimer out of the way...

In any event, I hope you enjoy watching my run!

Iso Checksum: d8603281a9a84a525ac7ae3dddbc30ea4f6bb190


feos: As I explained in the thread, this game is rather different from the first one, in both time and entertainment/impressiveness, and they can't easily be directly compared. They feature different aspects, as people agreed too.
The movie rule in question didn't cover the situation when the 2 games are different enough to work as different branches or game versions. So in agreement with admins this was cleaned up in the rules and matches our general policy on movie differences.
So this run can be properly accepted alongside the first game's movie. Yet it's still not entertaining enough to get into Moons, so Vault it is.
Dacicus: Trying my first GC publication...


TASVideoAgent
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This topic is for the purpose of discussing #6585: Lobsterzelda's GC NFL Street 2 "NFL Challenge" in 25:52.90
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So the rule we have says:
Sports games in the Vault are restricted to one game per series per platform. For example, PGA Tour Golf III on the Sega Genesis may obsolete PGA Tour Golf II on the Sega Genesis. Which game obsoletes which is decided by which game makes a more technically impressive run, as decided by a judge.
And I've had a really hard time determining which of these games provides for a move technically impressive run, because the Challenge modes are really different. The current publication consists of superhuman football play that looks more or less the same against all teams. This submission also has some routing involved to make the days pass as fast as possible, as well as the hotspots mechanics. It plays less games, so it's shorter, but the main football play is still mainly the same as in the first game. Less games to play doesn't necessarily mean it's more or less technically impressive. Even for Vault, having more variety in mechanics and less repetitiveness is arguably more entertaining, even if it generally still isn't actually entertaining to the general audience. More events to manipulate is probably more technically impressive, but since it's basically the same luck-manipulating technique repeated, each instance of it doesn't get exponentially more impressive, unlike the probability (as explained in the first game's submission). I talked to Nach and adelikat about the intent of the Vault rule, and it seems to be avoiding plain repetition. With the modes being quite different (so different that it's hard to compare them per se in impressiveness), they might be considered 2 different games, one involving something like a plot in addition to usual football play. Yet there is repetition in actual play. The author confirmed that failing a 2 point conversion to get 36 instead of 38 in the first game will also save time, which will make the play even more alike between the 2 games. So while making these 2 separate publications would be theoretically possible, I'm personally leaning towards preferring the shorter movie that has more variety to it. And I definitely don't see why this submission would need to be rejected. Does anyone think/feel anything about this situation?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Lobsterzelda
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Purely from a technical standpoint, I think that my NFL Street 1 TAS is more complex, and should be the published run of the 2 of these (if one has to be chosen). For one thing, in NFL Street 1, all games are done with a team with almost no skills, whereas in NFL Street 2, after a few games, I have a team that's as good or better ranked than most of the NFL teams. NFL Street 1 is also a more well known game, so I would prefer that that be published over NFL Street 2, which is more obscure. As an aside, i've been informed recently that there is a harder difficulty mode that this game can be played on. On the harder difficulty, you only need 2 touchdowns to win each of the first 6 games instead of the 3 touchdowns that you need on the mode I played on. This means that in addition to there being a harder difficulty I could have played on, the harder mode would actually be about 1-3 minutes shorter than my current TAS as well. Anyways, that's my opinion on this decision.
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I feel that both NFL street 1 and 2 have different goals going for it. with 1, it's just trying to score as many points in the shortest amount of time since you have to play against each team with no skill levels built up, that seems to be built up as you play against better and better teams. For this game however, the goal of each game is different, at least for the challenges. The player is going out of his way in some cases to do style points for each play, like throwing the ball after doing a wall kick and so on. This builds up his skill level. So instead of building up skill levels by diving into the first few games like in NFL street 1, it's sort of like a training session preparing the player for the real deal. NFL Street 1 shows what a team with basically no skill level running circles around a team with skill levels, where as NFL Street 2 does it as soon as the team has a higher skill level. so in this case I feel the conditions of each game are completely different. I think both movies have a spot on the site, and it wouldnt feel right to have one obsolete one over the other. TL:DR both games are going for different stuff, whether simmilar or not. the first game showing superhuman play with a team with low stats, with the 2nd game showing superhuman play with great stats. they are different enough to both be published.
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't 12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!" Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish [Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
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I just want to say that I find it weird that NFL Street 1 and NFL Street 2 could be considered as similar games while on the other hand we accepted games that have been released on different platforms. I didn't watch the movie, so take this just as a thought about this rule in general.
my personal page - my YouTube channel - my GitHub - my Discord: thunderaxe31 <Masterjun> if you look at the "NES" in a weird angle, it actually clearly says "GBA"
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EZGames69 wrote:
the first game showing superhuman play with a team with low stats, with the 2nd game showing superhuman play with great stats. they are different enough to both be published.
But actual football play in both is almost identical.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
EZGames69
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feos wrote:
EZGames69 wrote:
the first game showing superhuman play with a team with low stats, with the 2nd game showing superhuman play with great stats. they are different enough to both be published.
But actual football play in both is almost identical.
not exactly, in the first movie there is still a struggle for players to perform the best. like the quarterback (person that throws the ball) almost gets it intercepted (meaning the other team catches the ball), but it's manipulated in a way where the ball slips out of the hands for the player to catch it. that is simply from luck manipulation. where as if the players had a higher skill set, they could just easily throw the ball without a risk of being intercepted. another thing is every time the player catches the ball, there is a bunch of dodging they need to do to avoid being tackled by the other team, this is because the player is still not fast enough to out run the other team, so in order to win, they need to be very precise in their movement. Now with NFL Street 2, there is less restrictions the player has to work with, and player stats are far better here. that way, each play is more perfect due to players being faster and more agile than if they had no skill sets. So I dont really think the two are comparable, since the first movie is playing while being handicapped by a low skill set. TL:DR the skill set for the first game forces the player to do more moves in order to play the best, where the second game doesnt need this as skill sets are built up with the challenges, so the gameplay isnt exactly identical in both movies.
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't 12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!" Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish [Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
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Despite the longer length, I prefer the NFL Street 1 TAS. Reason #1 is that NFL Street 1 emphasizes superb play within the context of meaningful football games rather than excessive Tony Hawk-esque trick challenges. The epic journey through all eight divisions leads to a greater feeling of accomplishment and completeness than playing a few random teams. Reason #2 is that the exotic locations of the football games add greatly to the charm and sense of purposeful adventure. NFL Street 2 has little variety and dark, dreary locations.
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ThunderAxe31 wrote:
I just want to say that I find it weird that NFL Street 1 and NFL Street 2 could be considered as similar games while on the other hand we accepted games that have been released on different platforms. I didn't watch the movie, so take this just as a thought about this rule in general.
This is a fairly interesting point. I do feel either this rule or the rule about how we handle games across multiple platforms might need some adjustment. I doubt this game could be less different from NFL Street 1 than [3739] Arcade Samurai Shodown II by NhatNM in 11:36.43 is from [2709] PSX Samurai Shodown II by NhatNM in 17:10.02. The latter being a port of the first and seemingly intended to be identical! I'm not sure this rule is really a good thing.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
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Rule is stupid, obviously it was intended to deal with Madden/Tecmo submissions. Rule should be waived. I personally quite like this video and think it is very well done. Thanks for working so hard on this TAS! :)
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electricslide wrote:
Rule is stupid
Can you stop this ignorance? We work as hard as we can on designing them so they fit all the tastes of the watchers, TASers, judges, admins, while also being logical, usable, reliable, future-proof. If some situation out of 1098992786475476379809897387647547398329864 possible combinations of reality was not predicted with crystal clarity in advance, it doesn't mean that all our rules are stupid or crap. In addition, if you try to account for literally every possibility, 1) you never finish writing the rules, and 2) if you do, they will be infinitely long each. You have no idea what judges are going through with how detailed the current rules try to be, yet unpredictable problems raise every now and then and we have one brainstorming session after another to invent how to resolve it. But no, it's so much more comfortable to just yell out that the rules are stupid anyway, because who cares to actually read, apply, or design them, right?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Post subject: Movie published
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This movie has been published. The posts before this message apply to the submission, and posts after this message apply to the published movie. ---- [4127] GC NFL Street 2 "NFL Challenge" by Lobsterzelda in 25:52.90