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A point of clarity: Whenever I'm doing these glitches on console, most video corruption is extremely consistent. For example, in the picture above, the bottom left frame is from level 4 in my warp 4 + warp 16 fat gate thief route, of which there are many many videos available for comparison; and that room always looks like that, exactly. In all of them, the video corruption is perfectly consistent. Meaning, even with slight variations in performance of the movements in Level 1, once I warped to Level 4, each room would have its own unique appearance that was consistent every time I went to that room, every time I ran that route. So I knew what background shapes to expect when I got to a certain room, looking for specific spacing for a jump, for example. There have been other setups I've documented where very minor deviations in movement prior to a warp can cause a completely different video corruption scenario. But again, whenever I have perfectly recreated the particular unique setup, that unique video corruption is again completely consistent with its previous appearances. It is as if each one could be labeled with a serial number, and if you have "this" serial number, you will always see this particular set of visuals, and each room will look the same as it did last time. Anyway, when comparing all of Challenger's videos with all of my speedruns, it would seem that his emulator is doing something different. (Personally, I like my console's visual decisions! lol) Perhaps I don't have my own copy of Biz-Hawk set up correctly. But the point is still made by the screenshots Challenger has just provided -- not at all like the "rainbow dots" on my console, which is a familiar pattern in older warp-4 videos. For console, I'm using an SNS-101. (The newer SNES with small reset button and small power switch.) -- It would certainly be intriguing if the older SNES console made entirely different video corruption. I don't have an older one for comparison.
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So, Challenger, what I was saying about Level 5 (disregard kill button), if you go straight down from the beginning, the guard to the left might be able to clip you through that gate, before you approach the 2nd guard. Of course there's no need to clip with the 2nd guard, because he steps on the button for you as you approach. But if there's good spacing with the 1st guard, you would be able to skip the whole trip to the far left room.
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Oh! I forgot to post some stuff I've discovered weeks ago: With good positioning and timing, you can return to the previous room without needing to open that gate again (Level 13): Link to video It's possible to skip most of Level 15, though it requires some backtracking and it's tricky to achieve it, most because of tight spacing between both chompers: Link to video The boss from Level 9 can be skippable - it's slower than beating him but this skip it's interesting: Link to video In the same battle, it's now possible to defeat him with 2 cycles instead of 3: Link to video And a gate clip from Level 8: Link to video
Akuma wrote:
So, Challenger, what I was saying about Level 5 (disregard kill button), if you go straight down from the beginning, the guard to the left might be able to clip you through that gate, before you approach the 2nd guard. Of course there's no need to clip with the 2nd guard, because he steps on the button for you as you approach. But if there's good spacing with the 1st guard, you would be able to skip the whole trip to the far left room.
About Level 5, I tried this gate, and failed: Link to video Well, clipping from right side normally doesn't seem to be possible, because he doesn't advance a pixel and you aren't able to turn direction during every automatic sword-draw (but running forward is still possible, otherwise it would be a softlock). Actually this problem can be solved by losing signal of the guard like I did with Level 8 or killing the guard with Kill button cheat (not enabled in this recording) - In both cases, he will be able to turn direction and successfully bypass this gate.
My homepage --Currently not much motived for TASing as before...-- But I'm still working.
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Good stuff. So I guess Level 15 is the only viable gate clip for "Glitchless" (original) category, for now? Level 8 clip is about 1 second slower than normal route, if I remember correctly. And you say Level 9 clip is also slower. Try Guard Skip (level 1 trick) on the Level 9 Fat Boss. If you can get behind him (Select Button to buffer Intro Music) before the fight starts, maybe you can bring him to the gate faster. Your old TAS had a pretty good running-jump Guard Skip at the beginning of Level 2. Maybe something like that could work to save time.
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While I'm starting to play again, and practicing for a sub-7 minute world record RTA speedrun, I'm making an Individual Level video Level 16, using this Static Guard & Skeleton Sprite for the Sub-7 route. My best time so far appears to be 1 game clock time unit away from reaching 1:02 display on the game clock. Current best is 1:03. This will not be exactly comparable to the full run, since the Sub-7 route will include Warp Lag, and the game clock would not be accurate during the full run, as it includes some time from Level 1 before the warp. But this IL video will be a good way of demonstrating the movements and positions, since the full run will be "Blind" on Level 16 after the warp. (Edit: It may be difficult to save the time unit, and get it down to 1:02 display on game clock. I tracked all movements, and I perfectly tied TAS in all rooms accept the wall clip. For some reason, I'm losing 2 animations on wall collision, and 2 animations on turn-around + jump. I'm guessing I can fix the wall collision with a running jump, to reach the wall sooner. Not sure what's happening with the turn-around. I'll keep working on it.) I've finally gotten a good feel for that jump through the spikes for a good gate collision before the Level 16 Boss. Now that everything is coming together, I think I should be able to make a very good full run soon, after a little more practice. Shooting for 6:56 or 6:55 maybe.
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Akuma wrote:
Good stuff. So I guess Level 15 is the only viable gate clip for "Glitchless" (original) category, for now? Level 8 clip is about 1 second slower than normal route, if I remember correctly. And you say Level 9 clip is also slower. Try Guard Skip (level 1 trick) on the Level 9 Fat Boss. If you can get behind him (Select Button to buffer Intro Music) before the fight starts, maybe you can bring him to the gate faster. Your old TAS had a pretty good running-jump Guard Skip at the beginning of Level 2. Maybe something like that could work to save time.
Actually Level 8 clip is improvable - I saved about 2 seconds for now, and some more time can be gained by not killing the previous guard of this level. I'm not sure if using guard trick would be useful, but meanwhile... I didn't realize I upload a wrong draft of Level 9 boss skip. Here's the best strategy I've did: Link to video With perfect positioning and moving forward as soon as possible when the battle starts, the fat guard can be pushed back a bit - as I did with "2-cycle fight in the same battle". Timing is very important before getting a hit, because otherwise it causes an instant death.
My homepage --Currently not much motived for TASing as before...-- But I'm still working.
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I just had a thought while driving. I can't test it tonight, because I'm still moving to a new house. But I'll try soon. I'm wondering if it's possible to use the trick from Level 16 to jump through the wall, and do that same move to jump under the first gate in Level 18. If it's not too far away for an immediate climb, this should be faster than running through the gate & jumping to the wall. If it saves a couple of animations, this will be what we need to get the TAS's RTA equivalent below the next second.
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I guess this idea doesn't work. I tried it a few times, but I keep getting a collision with the gate. I did try it on emulator with keyboard, so there was some input lag. But I don't think I'll be able to do anything different on console with controller. Challenger, have you tried this? Is it possible to make this sprite do a standing jump through a gate, like the jump we did through the wall in Level 16?
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hey Challenger, I found great improvements for Level 20, so the TAS will be safely under the 6:50 mark for RTA count. So far, I've been consistently getting 1,673. The hilarious thing is, one of them was 1 animation late killing Jaffar. So it looks like absolutely perfect run will be 1,669, saving 10 frames. But I have only confirmed 1,673 so far. That is savings of 6 frames, which will bring TAS down from 24,643 to 24,637 = 6:49.94153. I'll explain the savings soon after I try a few more recordings, and see if I can get everything to go in one video. ================== Meanwhile, I've been making Individual Level recordings for this route, and have completed all levels in less than 3 seconds slower than TAS, which means 6:52.9 or better should be possible for humans. After a little more practicing, and re-recording of Individual Levels, I will soon begin doing the full speedrun again, and hopefully get something below 6:54. After I make a good enough run for new Any% World Record, I will get back to practicing the "All 20 Levels" GT1 category. Current projection is 22:33, but I still have to test the new GT1 setup, and maybe get the projection below 22:30.
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Well, I nailed it, LIKE A BOSS!! 1,669 on Level 20 with Guard Sprite. That's a 10 frame improvement over the current TAS. New updated TAS RTA count will be 24,633 = 6:49.8749776. WOW! Jumped right past 6:49.9 into 6:49.8! Very nice. I will upload and explain tonight after work. Gotta run!! EDIT: Here it is! So the improvement is entirely in the final room, upon returning to the hallway after the Jaffar fight. Before that, this recording is 100% tied with TAS. In the final room, I found that if you hold the forward button since before the background finished unpixelating, the buffered command allows the Prince to interact differently with the "Finish Line," and the "End of Level" music will be triggered after the 6th running animation, instead of the 8th. This saves 8 frames. The other 2 frames are saved because, with this spacing, and under these conditions, the Select Menu can be pulled up 2 frames faster, saving a half step. That's -10 frames total! 1,669 frames = 27.770930768253968 seconds. Time starts at 10.0350837678004535 seconds, and time ends at 37.8060145360544217687 seconds. Link to video
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I'm not sure why I didn't test it before, but thanks for pointing it out! Simply changing B button to left button on the same frame you can regain control. Here's the movie file: https://tasvideos.org/UserFiles/Info/638037673795770956 This improvement saves 8 frames indeed, and I exited select menu only a frame earlier.
Akuma wrote:
I guess this idea doesn't work. I tried it a few times, but I keep getting a collision with the gate. I did try it on emulator with keyboard, so there was some input lag. But I don't think I'll be able to do anything different on console with controller. Challenger, have you tried this? Is it possible to make this sprite do a standing jump through a gate, like the jump we did through the wall in Level 16?
Seems this idea won't work at all. Sorry for not answering this question before.
My homepage --Currently not much motived for TASing as before...-- But I'm still working.
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Yes, I see it's only saving you 8 frames. I completed 4 "perfect" runs so far. One of them, posted above, is 1669 frames, getting the Select Menu to come up after the final animation of Prince's movement is only on-screen for 4 frames. In the other two "perfect" runs, the time was 1671, because the final animation was on-screen for 6 frames before the Select Menu appeared. And in one other "perfect" run, the time was 1670, because the final animation was on-screen for 5 frames. There is some fluctuation of on-screen time for other things as well. For example, in all of my videos, the time remaining window appears on-screen after the final white strobe frame of Jaffar's death, and is on-screen for only 70 or 71 frames in every case, followed by 62 frames before the fade-out pixelation begins. In your TAS playback, the Time Remaining window is onscreen for 73 frames, followed by 63 more frames before the pixelation fade-out begins [+4]. I think the game adjusted by having a faster transition for your playback. I think you can manipulate the timing of the Select Menu at the End of the Level by adjusting the time and duration of your Select Menu manipulations during the Jaffar Intro in the Hallway, and after the Jaffar death. I would suggest trying a few variations, and see what happens. Under the right circumstances, the game may allow the final Select Menu window to open 2 frames sooner for you, which would give you a lower RTA time, and possibly allow you to unpause sooner at the end, for shorter TAS time. (For RTA time, your TAS playback is currently tied with my two worst "perfect" runs, at 1,671, because the last animation is on-screen for 6 frames instead of 4, before the Select Menu launches.) ==== For the other thing, I think it doesn't work because the Walls don't have the same collision circumstances as Gates. After the approach and buffered crouch on Level 16, you could stop inputs (no jump), and be standing there in the wall, with no wall collision. And if you started running, you could run in place without hitting the wall. None of that is possible with Gates, because of forced Gate collision. Too bad!
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I am in the process of closely examining the TAS on Level 19, to figure out where my mistakes are. My posted video is 43 frames worse. However, I'm actually better on the first section. How funny is that? My approach to the first gate, after the first wall clip, is actually 1 animation better than TAS. I jumped sooner, and had 1 extra length of running to stop after the loose panel. But the wall clip room is 1 animation faster, and the first climbing room is tied. So net savings of 3 or 4 frames, depending on lag / cpu float. I will post the video here, so you can see what I did. This should make the TAS faster, and will possibly have an impact on Level 20 later, perhaps allowing for the faster select menu pause at the end, which may save 1 more animation in the hallway, and allow for a sooner unpause to end the TAS faster on TAS timing. Link to video
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More Level 19 stuff. I matched TAS exactly (!!!) on Select Menu open & close + first kill. Here's the interesting part. Overall, my boss battle was 5 frames slower than TAS, but this included 3 (!!!) late kills, which should have been +12 or worse. Therefore, I must assume I did something different to spawn guards sooner than TAS to make up for lost time. I would suggest taking another look to see if TAS can make up this phantom difference of 7+ frames. Perhaps TAS inputs or movements were delaying spawn in some cases? I picked up extra lag in the first section, so only 2 frames faster than TAS instead of 3 or 4, but it still shows that the alternate jump & run through the first gate is faster than TAS. I'm kind of burned out on this level for now. I think I've done all I can do. I'm getting the "1:14" on the clock pretty consistently now, but I keep picking up +2 half animations in various places, so it's frustrating, but at least this video is officially a new PB at 5,039 frames, and the important "1:14" on the game clock. (529 time units is the highest possible password to still display 1:14 before bumping up to the next second.) It feels like I could get another 2 or 4 frames knocked off the top, since other former PBs have some better rooms, but I just can't get it to work! Levels 18 & 19 have boosted my confidence in trying to match TAS on Boss Select Menus, so I'm going to go back and run Level 16 again, which still has 12 frames to save on boss. Also, I can save the last 4 frames on wall clip, which I did in a subsequent video for the Warp Setup. lol! If I can actually tie TAS on Level 16, that'll take my PB projections all the way down to 24,770 = 6:52.1545567, with a decent amount of wiggle room to shoot for a 6:52.x in a full run. Link to video
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I've discovered another strange potential time save for TAS, this time on Level 17. So, whatever I did differently in the Boss Room + the Final Room allowed me to bring up Select Menu 7 frames faster than TAS in the final room. One would assume this means the End of Level music did, in fact, launch sooner, and should bring up Level 18 sooner. However, this particular spacing and timing may also require the movements I did in the Boss room, which was 4 frames slower than TAS. Thus, it is a net improvement of 3 frames in the last two rooms, compared to current TAS. Now, the reason I say this is a strange improvement is because it is possible that this is a fluke, which TAS will not be able to reproduce -- similar to saving 3 frames on a Princess Cut Scene, when coincidental lag save allows you to stop the cut scene 1 animation (3 frames) sooner than usual. The fluke is noticeable here because I was able to bring up Select Menu after 3 frames of Prince touching the "finish line," instead of after 6 frames. However, I would recommend giving it a try, as perhaps the alternate spacing can reproduce timing that launches the music 2 frames sooner. I now have 2 different runs that are clocking in at 1,829 frames, which is 6 frames slower than TAS. The one I am showing here is the older video, with the worse Game Clock time of "0:30." It was due to inaccurate jump patterns in the first half of the level. These jump patterns were improved to match TAS in the 2nd video, which was able to acquire the "0:29" game clock result & password. However, it's still 6 frames slower than TAS, mainly because of the boss room, but also an unlucky lag frame at the beginning. The boss room difference might be a jump pattern, or something to do with the Select Menu. I do not know. I was in the same position as TAS at the finish line, and I had Select Menu open during Boss music for the exact same number of frames as TAS. So I'm throwing my hands up on this one. At least my second video was able to improve the game clock execution, and get a low PB time without a possible fluke. I will be uploading the new video with the improved "0:29" game clock time soon. But in the meantime, here is the former video, which I think you should have a look at, especially at the end, to see if TAS is able to reproduce this fast Select Menu press at the finish line. Link to video
Challenger
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You enter the Boss Room two pixels ahead (x183 instead of x185), allowing him to reach the exit a bit faster than my TAS. About Level 19 Boss Rush: the waiting time isn't affected at all if you kill them a bit later as long as they are still in the air (for instant death animation). Well, while Level 17 will require some testing, I have new updates for this project: - I added that Level 19 improvement you've pointed out recently, after the first wall clip. 0 real-time frames gained in this room but 1 time unit faster, and the transition for the next room was shortened by a frame. - Improved the section after the second wall clip by attempting a turnaround once finishing that running jump, gaining 3-4 frames. Here's the movie file: https://tasvideos.org/UserFiles/Info/638053430271228576 And great news: while we can't avoid killing prince in order to fix a nasty problem for Level 20, it's actually possible to kill him while finishing Level 17. Yeah I implemented that same Level 17 boss skip from my "no warp glitch" TAS, gaining 3 seconds for not resetting the game but this game remains blindfolded until reaching the princess cutscene before Level 20 starts. Here's the new full TAS without Level 17 reset: https://tasvideos.org/UserFiles/Info/638053435032062832 (somehow Level 20 ending is a frame slower than the other movie file posted above)
My homepage --Currently not much motived for TASing as before...-- But I'm still working.
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That's very interesting! A couple of questions -- At the end of Level 16, I hear some very fast menu navigation. As far as I know, there is no reason to make any changes to settings, or controls. So why is there any extra menu noise here? Surely this is adding to the frame count. (Well, maybe I can guess -- Are you resetting sound from Mono back to Stereo during music replay, so no real time or game time is lost, and this is theoretically improving playback quality? lol) Sound is changed from Stereo to Mono as a consequence of the Warp Glitch. This is an indication that it successfully enabled Kill Button. There are other Warp Glitch patterns which do not activate Kill Button, and in these cases, sound is not switched to Mono. Also, I noticed you are no longer pulling up the Select Menu at the end of the Jaffar fight on Level 20, inside the Arena. Did you determine that it did not save a frame in this instance? Or did you forget it? ======= I will be curious to see if this Level 17 death improvement will be consistent for human RTA. Who knows what may cause the skull patterns to change? lol.
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Akuma wrote:
That's very interesting! A couple of questions -- At the end of Level 16, I hear some very fast menu navigation. As far as I know, there is no reason to make any changes to settings, or controls. So why is there any extra menu noise here? Surely this is adding to the frame count. (Well, maybe I can guess -- Are you resetting sound from Mono back to Stereo during music replay, so no real time or game time is lost, and this is theoretically improving playback quality? lol) Sound is changed from Stereo to Mono as a consequence of the Warp Glitch. This is an indication that it successfully enabled Kill Button. There are other Warp Glitch patterns which do not activate Kill Button, and in these cases, sound is not switched to Mono. Also, I noticed you are no longer pulling up the Select Menu at the end of the Jaffar fight on Level 20, inside the Arena. Did you determine that it did not save a frame in this instance? Or did you forget it? ======= I will be curious to see if this Level 17 death improvement will be consistent for human RTA. Who knows what may cause the skull patterns to change? lol.
Yep I reset those settings to default, since waiting for stage clear message is unavoidable anyway. About Level 20: this time I was 1 frame faster without the Select Menu for some reason. The entire skull pattern is timing based, and you can manipulate it by delaying the boss room entrance or taking advantage of Select Menu during the unavoidable waiting in the boss room. I'm not sure if this strat would be RTA possible, because this one requires a good RNG manipulation, when taking damage the prince normally is stunned but this problem can be avoidable by taking damage with precise positioning next to the exit gate. Since you have 3 HP instead of 4 HP (you gain 1 more HP at the end of Level 15), you must lose 2 HP, so for the second cycle you must be extremely close to the gate then turnaround when the skull falls down very close to you (great timing), clipping through the gate sucessfully and dying at the same time.
My homepage --Currently not much motived for TASing as before...-- But I'm still working.
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I decided to take a day off from this sub-7 minute route, and take another look at GT1 setup for the Warpless category. So far, the findings are disappointing. The alternate setup you made for the GT1 warp-4 route improves things by about 350 frames. But, very sadly, it appears to cause grievous lag, much worse than the other setup, especially in the final segment of level 1, where the Prince jumps into the hole to initiate the sprite scramble, and even worse on Level 2. It looks like there's upwards of 250 extra lag frames, in addition to previous lag, and also the lag reduction trick used in the other setup by killing the first guard on level 2 while he's swinging his sword, does not appear to work at all this time. So, initial tests appear to show that the final GT1 setup you cleaned up, may only have a potential savings of around 100 frames for the Warpless Route (about 1.66 seconds, instead of 3-5 seconds). I have more testing to do. Once I clean up my attempts, I may find that the lag situation improves slightly. I wonder if you would be interested in helping me make a small test video with your TAS, to see what the best potential is. To refresh your memory, it would involve segments from multiple different GT1 videos: segment 1, complete Level 1 as quickly as possible, and use START+SELECT Music Menu to bring up password box sooner (skipping full "end of Level" song). Exit Level 2, and restart level 1. segment 2, Single Up at Hole #2 to warp to Level Zero, climb down, go to the left 2 more rooms, climb up & down Hole #4, and exit. restart Level 1. (remember you jump to the button to open the gate, crouch to stop short, then do standing-jump through gate underneath loose panel, knock panel & crouch to avoid hit.) segment 3, jump into Hole #1 & exit. CONTINUE to Level 2. segment 4, complete Level 2 as quickly as possible, probably following my Level 2 video. At beginning of Level 3, confirm Best Times board (hopefully no Low Time garbage) and Button configuration (hopefully no button scramble). ALSO, FYI -- maybe you didn't notice, but I did finally get the Speedrun.com categories updated to include our Sub-7 route, AND the GT1 Warpless Route. I had previous posted a video here of my nice All 20 Level Compilation, which is down to 22:33.5. At worst, it would appear I've already confirmed enough savings with the alternate route described above to bring the route projection down below 22:31, which is nice for sure. Anyway, now that the Warpless category exists, perhaps you will finally find some interest in thinking of my GT1 Warpless Route as a good candidate for a future TAS project, after we have finished the Sub-7 Minute Route, and you've had time to work on other projects....
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Despite appearances, and the overwhelming lag caused by the newer setup, using the lag reduction trick does still work on the first guard on level 2!!! The jump pattern is 24 frames slower, but the trick saves 67 lag frames (net lag differential, as the falling panels cause extra lag). So 67 - 24 = a net savings of 43 frames by continuing to use the lag reduction trick (killing the guard while he is swinging his sword). Furthermore, I have refreshed my memory on the better setup from one of your most recent GT1 test videos ("Prince of Persia - GT1 TAS with more optimizations"), (8:35 TAS time), and I think a human can do something like 132 frames better than my previous setup projection (including extra lag from Level 2). I will continue to work on a good video for this, and maybe get it up to 160 frames with tight movement & menus. So far, my best segments add up to 132 frames saved, including all extra lag, so the GT1 projection should definitely be considered below 23:31 now. You may recall that I had, at the time, said I was unable to duplicate your pattern where the Prince simply climbs up & back down through Hole #5. It had been freezing the game, and so I had been trying alternate exits, like turning and running off the ledge. However, today, I implemented all of the main movements, including the crouch to stop before the gate, and doing a standing-jump through the gate to the spot underneath the loose panel. Today, I've had no issues with the game freezing on this pattern. The only remaining problem is the partial button scrambling. It concerns me that B is changed to Crouch, because there may be a possibility of me accidentally holding it too long, and buffering a crouch at an inopportune moment! (It's not a huge problem, because the game is hard-coded to recognize the B button as a Jump Button first and foremost, before considering any changes made to the controller settings.) This problem is fixed with the other GT1 setup you tried ("Prince of Persia (SNES) - another GT1 setup"), (similar to Warp-16, but climbing up to the top of the screen and jumping from up there, instead of immediately turning and jumping to the Warp-16 spot). However, this alternate setup is almost exactly the same length (what a funny coincidence!), so I'll need to tighten up both for a further comparison, and see if the Zero^2 setup causes less lag than the Zero^1 setup. At some point though, We'll have to consider the alternate sprite you found, which was acquired in just 7 seconds, hahaha. It will be hard for GT1 to make up 38 seconds over the course of 19 levels. From the final TAS you made for the alternate gate thief ("Prince of Persia (warp glitch TAS - fastest setup)" (7:53 TAS time), it does look like this guy has a few limitations on spacing to jump through closed gates, so I did notice some places where you had to slow down quite a bit, like doing a U-turn on the Island on Level 4, or jumping through the 2nd gate on Level 18 to grab the ledge, instead of just running through. So who knows, if there are a couple of seconds worth of problems for this alternate sprite set on each level, perhaps GT1 can catch up! It'll be fun to find out eventually! @__@
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ok, I've got some fun updates today. For now, it looks like the alternate Zero^2 setup for GT1 is not useful, as it requires exit at first guard. If you do the guard skip, and save progress to level 2, the setup sends you to the room with the other guard, rather than to the room directly above. In other words, you'd have to do the guard exit, the full setup, and then play level 1 all the way through again. So it'll be 10+ seconds slower. As for the alternate Gate Thief Sprite Set, it does seem to have promise. The setup is very cooperative, and I've been able to use it several times in a row, without a single mess up, or freeze. It also works just fine after completing Level 1 and saving progress to Level 2. Furthermore, as soon as Alternate Gate Thief is acquired, and Level 2 begins, there does appear to be much less lag than standard GT1. So Alternate GT gets off to a great start with 38 seconds saved on setup, and slightly faster level 2 from better lag. Levels 2, 3, 5, 10, 15, 16, 17, and 20 appear to be identical to GT1 in terms of abilities, and no limitations to cause slow-downs. That leaves levels 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, 13, 14, 18, 19. We already have a good idea of the potential for levels 18, and 19 from your TAS test, which loses about 78 frames altogether. So that just leaves 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, 13, and 14 to stay within 36.5 seconds of GT1 to be better, averaging 4 seconds per level. Early scouting reports reveal that it should be well below this mark on each level, with only a few delays here and there. After playing the other levels, it feels like each one only has about 2 seconds worth of delays, due to slower movements in approaching gates, etc. So I think we're gonna find that this would be about 18-20 seconds faster than the best GT1 route. I noticed in your full TAS for this alternate GT sprite, that you intentionally collided with the wall to fall short of the gate before the boss on Level 18, so you could get a full jump into the boss room. This will be a 26 frame improvement, plus the 1 animation save in the hallway below the end button, that's 30 frames, or a full half second. So I can tentatively put the GT1 full projection around 81,344 - 190 = 81,154 = 22:30.34278943492. (160 for alt setup, 30 for better Level 18). I know there's another 8 frames to be saved elsewhere, which would bring it down to 22:30.209675327 with 13 more frames needing to be saved in order to reach a sub-22:30 for GT1. So if the new Alt Sprite is 18 seconds better, looks like the Warpless Route may have a potential for 22:12 or better. I think it may be appropriate to refer to this alternate GT sprite as GT2 or Gate Thief #2, as it certainly seems to have priority over any other alternate gate thief sprites in the context of the Warpless Category, (like wobbling sword GT, or Fat GT).
Joined: 12/26/2018
Posts: 269
I had a new idea today. Speedrun dot com just updated the pop snes category labels again, with slightly better logical organization. The Any% category has a "No Exit Glitch" sub-category, which is the original glitchless category, and a "Standard" sub-category, which is the sub-7 minute route we're working on here. Separately, my "All 20 Levels (Warpless)" work with GT1 has been given its own stand-alone category called "All Levels," denoting that this is a separate condition. This sets up a good template for the completist categories to come. 100% could be divided into glitch vs no glitch categories like Any%. And a separate category for "All Life Bottles" could mirror "All Levels" for once again denoting a separate condition not specifically related to game %. So my idea is this: I had been begrudging the possibility of having to redo all of my GT1 individual level videos to make SLOWER, INFERIOR individual level videos with the new GT2. But, the new GT2 sprite could definitely find some immediate use as the basis for an "All Life Bottles" run. I would make quick work of the setup, and be off & running to the bottles in no time. And the new routing to include the bottles would provide a new challenge that's not specifically related to undoing my GT1 work. So this may be yet another project that I take up in the near future. But I do still want to try to make a good Sub-7 RTA record first, before I get too distracted.
Joined: 12/26/2018
Posts: 269
Challenger, I was just thinking about something weird I did once. I can't remember if I asked you about it. I wonder if you would be interested in testing this. I feel like there must be somewhere in the game where this trick could line up for a big skip. In the picture, RED arrows show what I actually did. I jumped off the ledge, landed in the pit, near the wall, and clipped through the floor to fall below. But I fell into the next pit, and died, so the shortcut was unsuccessful. I have never been able to repeat it, so I haven't been able to test whether, in this case, the GREEN arrows might show a viable shortcut option. I think this could come in handy somewhere. For now, I can't remember whether it is Gate-Thief-Only. I also can't remember for sure if it was a running jump or a standing jump. Obviously in this case, if it was a running jump to get the perfect spacing, it could not be done from the 2nd pit here. But I still think it's worth looking at, in case there is some clip somewhere in the game that can be exploited.
Challenger
He/Him
Skilled player (1634)
Joined: 2/23/2016
Posts: 1033
I tested that 1st pit years before, while the second one it doesn't seem to work. Even if the second one could work, unfortunately the height is high enough for an unavoidable fall death as soon as he lands on that raised floor from the room below (tested it by cheating x position as soon as he reaches the next screen from the first pit).
My homepage --Currently not much motived for TASing as before...-- But I'm still working.
Joined: 12/26/2018
Posts: 269
Challenger wrote:
Even if the second one could work, unfortunately the height is high enough for an unavoidable fall death as soon as he lands on that raised floor from the room below.
Are you saying that when the Prince clips through the floor in this pattern, he does not actually touch the first floor, so there is no resetting of the falling height? Since I only did it once, I couldn't remember exactly what it looked or sounded like. I guess I assumed there was some kind of hit, like on Level 3 when you clip the edge and take damage while falling into the next room below. But if there's no hit on the first floor, I guess that makes sense that it would end up being at least 3 levels falling, which will kill you. So it would only work with Invincibility, and very lucky circumstances in the next room to fall next to a wall for a pop-up, or landing on a loose panel below, etc.
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