Currently, TASVideos distinguishes PC games based on their target operating system (Windows, Linux, DOS, etc.). The reasons for these distinctions are largely historical. Initially, we labelled games by their platform because games on different consoles with the same name would often be entirely different experiences made by completely different teams (particularly pre-2000s). Then, when the first rerecording tools for PC games came around (JPC-rr and Hourglass), they could only target specific operating systems (DOS and Windows respectively). Due to their limitations and distinct eras of usage, these ended up becoming different platforms, setting a precedent that has continued since.
However, with an increasing number of modern PC games able to be TASed (particularly thanks to libTAS), these distinctions no longer make as much sense, for a variety of reasons:
Multi-OS game releases are almost always designed to be identical, using the same code and assets across all versions
Several game engines (GameMaker, Unity, etc.) allow games to easily be ported between platforms, meaning that in many cases, “Windows” games are being run in a Linux executable through libTAS without any kind of emulation
Newer releases of emulators like DOSBox-X and PCem can run multiple OSes without distinction, preventing the platform from getting automatically detected by our parsers and requiring manual entry and/or correction
Some TAS tools (e.g. CelesteTAS) target games that are available on both Windows and Linux. We have no good way to decide which OS label should get chosen in such cases, and creating a uniqueplatform for every situation like this is not a sustainable solution
What we want to know is: How do folks feel about merging some of these platforms together into a single “PC” label, and which ones should we merge? At the most basic level, we want to merge Windows and Linux together, but there are other systems it might make sense to include (macOS, DOS, Flash, DOOM) that we feel require some further discussion from the community.
I started writing this response in the Discord, but it got long enough that I feel it's worth posting here instead. If this feels rambly and off-the-cuff, that is why.
Doom is ambiguous. if you're a Doomer who wants to see custom doom wads, it makes sense to group them as DOOM. If you're a casual and just want to see the original commercial Dooms that you remember playing on your dad's PC, I would intuitively expect to find them under DOS. But since we already published stuff like ksutra.wad, I'd keep DOOM distinct, since it's easier to just find DOOM on the overview page and know where to go.
Flash also "feels" distinct, because of how most Flash games look and how they typically used to be distributed, but it's harder to make that case, since you can naturally also package Flash up in a standalone executable, which then becomes Linux? Maybe it might make sense to have a single "Web" category instead, distinct from PC.
IMO Windows and Linux should just be merged. I think a more practical and useful distinction would be age (could roll DOS into that then), but where do you draw the line(s)? But the current setup is not intuitive and needlessly divides the movie list. Why is Undertale listed as both Linux and Windows? As a casual viewer, I don't know.
As for DOS, IDK lmao. I also find it hard to make a distinction between DOS and early (DOS-based) Windows games, so as long as the sheer size of one platform isn't an issue, I'd probably just roll DOS games into PC as well.
I am definitely in favor of merging Windows and Linux. Not sure on the rest.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Joined: 1/24/2018
Posts: 406
Location: Stafford, NY
scrimpeh wrote:
Flash also "feels" distinct, because of how most Flash games look and how they typically used to be distributed, but it's harder to make that case, since you can naturally also package Flash up in a standalone executable, which then becomes Linux? Maybe it might make sense to have a single "Web" category instead, distinct from PC.
I second the idea of the "Web" (or perhaps "Web Platform") category, even if only because it would make adding games from other major web plugins (Shockwave, Unity, HTML5, Java, etc.) easier to implement down the road.
As for the divide between Windows and DOS, I would propose anything intended for Windows 95 or later retain the "Windows" category while anything before that is labeled "DOS" (even if the game was intended to run on, say, Windows 3.1). Doom would retain its current exemption status simply because of long it has had a distinct treatment.
c-square wrote:
Yes, standard runs are needed and very appreciated here too
Dylon Stejakoski wrote:
Me and the boys starting over our games of choice for the infinityieth time in a row because of just-found optimizations
^ Why I don't have any submissions despite being on the forums for years now...
I agree that it makes sense to merge things (Windows, Linux, MacOS, etc) for more modern systems.
I agree that DDOM should remain distinct.
I agree that "Web" or "Web Platform" is a good idea for PC games originally designed to be run in a web interface regardless if there are standalone programs that can run them.
GJTASer2018 wrote:
As for the divide between Windows and DOS, I would propose anything intended for Windows 95 or later retain the "Windows" category while anything before that is labeled "DOS" (even if the game was intended to run on, say, Windows 3.1).
I also agree with this idea that it makes sense to label anything PC pre-Win 95 as DOS. Not sure how to handle Mac games that old though; it would seem odd to lump them with DOS and just as odd to lump them in with all other modern PC.
Are there many Linux/Unix games that old to even worry about until they crop up?
Note for a "Web" platform some people are proposing here... the platform actually already exists, thanks to GameMaker and Undertale.
A Web platform can also be seen as more expansive than a PC anyways, given you can generally run web games on mobile devices (e.g. your phone). That even includes Ruffle (and I assume Flash back in the day "worked").
Joined: 1/24/2018
Posts: 406
Location: Stafford, NY
DrD2k9 wrote:
Not sure how to handle Mac games that old though; it would seem odd to lump them with DOS and just as odd to lump them in with all other modern PC.
The classic Mac community generally makes their divisions based on the type of processor "under the hood" (especially for the switch from Motorola processors to PowerPC processors and later on to Intel processors) and "black and white vs. color". You can use those as rough guidelines for now and ask for refinement from the general enthusiast community later on.
c-square wrote:
Yes, standard runs are needed and very appreciated here too
Dylon Stejakoski wrote:
Me and the boys starting over our games of choice for the infinityieth time in a row because of just-found optimizations
^ Why I don't have any submissions despite being on the forums for years now...
I dislike the idea of generalization because there are plenty of games which effectively not fit into your criterias.
I'd propose a label selector in submissions and publications and it should be managed on case-by-case basis, depending on what is happening in a TAS.
We got a case recently showing that DOSBox-X can run a J2ME emulator with a game for it under Windows. If it reaches a submission, it should be labeled "J2ME", because that's the main platform being TASed.
There are plenty of old games made for one OS only which cannot be ported to another OS. I disagree aligning it all as "PC".
If it's proofed that a game can be ported to another OS, then labelling it "PC" is fine.
DOOM, on the other hand, should be either dropped as a label, or marked as PC (voting for this).
- Regarding the first one, like, I see the title "[TAS] DOOM The Ultimate Doom "Episode 1" by almostmatt1 & 38_ViTa_38 in 03:32.01" and I'm like "Why to duplicate the game name twice?". Sooner or later we will see Heretic and Hexen TASes, which also use .lmp as input format. That would be incorrect to see them labeled as DOOM.
- Regarding the second one, Doom TASes are made using sourceports, which typically are cross-platformed.
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
As for the divide between Windows and DOS, I would propose anything intended for Windows 95 or later retain the "Windows" category while anything before that is labeled "DOS" (even if the game was intended to run on, say, Windows 3.1).
I also agree with this idea that it makes sense to label anything PC pre-Win 95 as DOS.
This could easily cause confusion by labeling games "DOS SkiFree", "DOS Pool Champion", "DOS Star Wars; Yoda Stories" even though those games never had a DOS release. We could instead put DOS, Windows, macOS and Linux together under a PC platform, as they are all desktop games for PCs. (Chrome Dino is not a desktop game, which is why it was moved from Windows to Web.)
DOOM should go in PC too, just like CelesteTAS and BunnymodXT (TAS tool for Half-Life and derivatives). Naming an entire platform after one game/tool is too specific, and could balloon our number of platforms as staff has been reaching out to communities to get their tools on the site. PC is a catch-all for these that's also used by SDA and speedrun.com. We have never been limited to one tool per platform either, from Famtasia, FCEU, etc. for NES; to Hourglass, PCem and BizHawk for Windows.
Flash, Shockwave, etc. can all go under the Web platform CasualPokePlayer mentioned, as long as they're meant to be played in a web browser. As with GameMaker and Adobe AIR, offline or other special uses of these technologies can get the appropriate platform, case-by-case. PopCap's Atomica uses Java in a browser, so it goes in Web; while Minecraft is a desktop Java game, so it goes in PC.
Dimon12321 wrote:
We got a case recently showing that DOSBox-X can run a J2ME emulator with a game for it under Windows. If it reaches a submission, it should be labeled "J2ME", because that's the main platform being TASed.
I don't think anyone would argue against this, since it's a J2ME game in a J2ME emulator. However, a new J2ME platform would still be added manually by staff consensus, rather than created by just any submitter (or spammer). Discussion is important; look how many different ideas and opinions there are in this very topic.
However, a new J2ME platform would still be added manually by staff consensus, rather than created by just any submitter (or spammer).
I haven't verified any platform-uncleared TASes for quite some time until the GTA 2 case. I remembered that the platform is set depending on which game has been selected for the submission cataloging. This process already regulated by reviewers (and beyond).
Spammers are filtered out regardless of the option of platform selection.
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
I am more in favour of combining Windows, Linux and DOS (including classic Doom) into PC, and keeping the rest separate. After all, the DOS games we have published run on a PC compatible (i.e. x86 or x86-64/amd64) platform, whereas MacOS (especially classic MacOS) can run on e.g. 68000 or PowerPC architectures...and the most recent MacOS releases don't run on Intel Macs at all, but on their own architecture (I think ARM-based?). Flash and Web games could in theory be run on non-PC platforms, so they should also be kept separate.
When this question was brought up among (current) staff for the first time, it seemed to be so messy that it's unsolvable. Then I reread Thread #16558: How to classify Doom publications and it started looking clear to me. Then I read this thread and it now looks EVEN MORE MESSY AND UNSOLVABLE THAN BEFORE!
InputEvelution wrote:
Newer releases of emulators like DOSBox-X and PCem can run multiple OSes without distinction, preventing the platform from getting automatically detected by our parsers and requiring manual entry and/or correction
Automatic detection will be completely impossible in some cases, like when we have to run a J2ME or, say, Game and Watch emulator on dosboxx/pcem in case those emulators are problematic to use for tasing otherwise. So regardless of how we categorize various systems this one question can't be solved either way. We'll have to do it manually.
InputEvelution wrote:
Multi-OS game releases are almost always designed to be identical, using the same code and assets across all versions
Several game engines (GameMaker, Unity, etc.) allow games to easily be ported between platforms, meaning that in many cases, “Windows” games are being run in a Linux executable through libTAS without any kind of emulation
Some TAS tools (e.g. CelesteTAS) target games that are available on both Windows and Linux. We have no good way to decide which OS label should get chosen in such cases, and creating a uniqueplatform for every situation like this is not a sustainable solution
I agree that adding new platforms for all game-specific tools is not sustainable. I also always felt weird about adding every gaming engine as a new platform, even when tas tools are not specific to it. So today it starting being clear to me that we should just have https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_compatible as a platform (PC for short) and move there everything that runs on PC by design explicitly as its target platform. Because IBM-PC-compatible is a certain type of hardware configuration that objectively exists, is arguably still prevalent among desktop users, and it fits the same principle we use for other consoles and computers when we distinguish them by hardware and not software they're running. Additionally it's the option that won the poll in Thread #16558: How to classify Doom publications (even tho it wasn't implemented lol).
However...
Doom is a brilliant example of why none of the available options make any sense. Because it's not just a DOS game, and it's not just an IBM-PC-compatible game, and it's not just a PC game, and it's not just a game...
What is Doom in the first place? It's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doom_engine combined with game assets in a WAD file. Originally those were shipped as one piece, then id Software officially split them and the engine was released as open source. It was initially the Linux version of it, because DOS and Windows versions relied on a library that could not be open sourced or replaced. But that's not super important, because then enthusiasts moved in... and turned absolute universality of the Doom engine into a personal challenge. As a result, you can run games that require the Doom engine on any kind of popular device whatsoever. Which means...
Doom is not just a PC game, it runs fine on Android too. And in browser!!!
I don't know much about Unity but I suspect it's about the same: it will run on anything you want.
Flash too. It targeted Web, but it always had both browser plugin and standalone executable, and now Ruffle is an open source reimplementation of the engine (read emulator), and it's similarly absolutely universal.
In theory any game engine in the world can be unofficially ported to any device that has technical capabilities to run it, it would just be an emulator.
Doom is not just PC. Flash is not just Web. Yet it'd feel weird to have made-up terms like Multiplatform to be used instead of any specific platform for games that are truly multiplatform. Or would it???
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
For people who want to keep DOS separate from Windows/Linux, we could rename DOS to specifially IBMPC, and Windows/Linux to just PC (full system name would be IBM PC Compatible). That'd be the least subjective way to solve it while not telling anyone "deal with it!!!"
Thoughts?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I like it, nice and simple. We can always deal with DOOM and the other ones later.
On the other hand, would macOS stay separate or be part of PC? See fsvgm777's post about it. So far we have 2 Intel Mac publications and 1 pre-Intel Mac one. They're all desktop OSes like PC though.
Looking at the platforms list, I think it would make sense to merge Atari Jaguar and Atari Jaguar CD.
There are only 13 Jaguar CD games, so the list of platforms would be less cluttered if these were merged to Jaguar.
With similar logic I would merge Sega 16-bit and Sega CD. These are almost the same system.
Merging SMS and Game Gear might also be a good choice.
With systems that have less than 10 publications you might want to merge them all as 'Other' and only release the platform from the platform limbo if 10 publications have been made.
On the other hand, would macOS stay separate or be part of PC? See fsvgm777's post about it. So far we have 2 Intel Mac publications and 1 pre-Intel Mac one. They're all desktop OSes like PC though.
The benefit of keeping MacOS separate is that it's a platform with a very long and unique history independent from the history of IBM-PC-Compatible devices. It was a part of it for a bit but mostly it's not. And MacOS is a decent all-encompassing name for everything Apple-specific covering a lot of permutations of the name and still making it clear that it is indeed something Apple-specific.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
We've discussed this a bit more internally.
Keeping DOS separate makes it a great way to distinguish DOS-only games from all the modern insanity, and it can't run on Windows without emulation (aside from a few super old Windows versions), so it'd be very unhelpful to lump all the 5893578603579687340596839586793856 DOS games into just PC.
Doom is multiplatform, but it officially targeted DOS, Windows, and Linux until source ports came about. And now even tho Bethesda released it for Android as well, 90% of all the work with the game, by both TASers and us, is still limited to Windows and Linux. And if someone runs the DOS version of the game in a DOS emulator, fine we can mark that as a DOS TAS. Even tho in theory an internal demo could still be created from that, but exporting it may desync the movie, and even then it's super unlikely that anyone will bother with running it inside DOS. There's too few Doom TASers even with all the modern tools for it, and they are completely non-existent for the original, so I imagine it'd be a pure nightmare.
So in the end it looks like the only merge we can be sure about, and the one that'd be the most helpful, is DOOM+Windows+Linux+[individual game engines targeting Windows and/or Linux] => PC. Full name of the PC platform could still be IBM PC Compatible.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Good, logical solution that should clear up any confusion and make publication titles sound more natural. I'm glad staff has discussed this too so everyone's on board.
Hold the phone, did you manually move games to PC?
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
I mean, staff was looking into a way to automate it but uh if you already did it, that's cool too I guess
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
