Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
We got one confirm and two uncomfirms.
OmnipotentEntity is tackling his favorite Exploration Glitch run (and has many nice frame savers, and not even in the castle yet!) hopefully dezbeast's glitches gets Erokky on the ball with any%, though I won't speak for him, and 100% is a big question mark. There's a few candidates for taking it on, no concrete word on it yet.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/4933/wouldthisbeEG.smv
What I'm doing is performing the Exploration Glitch, but I get out of it almost immediately. So what I'm doing is bypassing locked doors and barriers, which probably would be classified as EG.
I'm actually against using this method to "kill Ganon". I want your people's thoughts though.
I'm not re-attempting this TAS. I'm just curious to know what people think of this particular use of the EG for a run that would obsolete flagitious's run. Again, I'm personally against this method.
Joined: 3/10/2006
Posts: 347
Location: Maryland, United States
comicalflop wrote:
can there maybe be quick .smvs showing how to do this and which stairs these two tricks work on? I've been trying to picture it in my mind's eye and can't quite seem to do it. I assume that in as early as Hyrule Castle that these stairs glitches can be put to use, as well as pixelporting through all doorways?
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
erokky wrote:
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/4933/wouldthisbeEG.smv
What I'm doing is performing the Exploration Glitch, but I get out of it almost immediately. So what I'm doing is bypassing locked doors and barriers, which probably would be classified as EG.
I'm actually against using this method to "kill Ganon". I want your people's thoughts though.
I'm not re-attempting this TAS. I'm just curious to know what people think of this particular use of the EG for a run that would obsolete flagitious's run. Again, I'm personally against this method.
Well, I watched it. for the full run it'd be a huge time saver, but I'm actually against it being used in anything other than the EG run. it brings up the point "so you can walk through walls, why not do it at the first possible place and skip right to ganon?" I feel like it would, if used throughout the entire game make the run unrecognizable and not as good since Link would be off screen most of the time. my vote is not to use it, despite being kinda cool.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Edit: after a while since the EG was published, I hope this is still being worked on. I looked ahead and pixelporting can be used in any place where you are squeezed in... in fact, for very long stretches, the speed you can get is quite fast, but it does not work on those stairs that you can wobble up on.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/257734703/More%20pixelporting%20fun.smv
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Karter posted about a glitch with the flute that works only in the GBA version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-se0Yx1vJE&NR=1
This can allow a lot of shortcuts and such.
Here's another glitch, the second one in the video is the most interesting one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6hx52x-Cw0&mode=related&search=
That can also only be done in the GBA version. Makes Link run pretty fast. You can't use your sword while running, but other items. The running ends if you go to another screen, or jump down a ledge, going into a cave and so on. So it's quite limited.
My question is: Shall the future runs be made on the GBA version instead so these glitches can be included? Or make both GBA and SNES runs?
<erokky> i see two reasons why it's better to do the run on gba but infinite more reasons why it should be done on snes
<erokky> now that i think about it, that dash thing is more novel than helpful
<erokky> since you can just....dash
<erokky> can only be performed on the overworld, and light world at that
<Xkeeper> erokky: yeah, but with dashing, you have to re-start dashing every time you change directions
<erokky> that's....32 frames. how long does it take to setup that perma dash thing?
<erokky> switching to flute which takes 58 frames if you don't already have it, summon the bird, wait for it, screen transitions, and back, find stairs
<erokky> that other flute bug is pretty cool though
<erokky> that's the first reason. the other reason is that the moth boss isn't a bitch but even then, that problem would only cost 1-2 seconds compared to the GBA version
My memory is really screwy; Death Mountain Descent isn't allowed in the conventional run, is it?
[Read about DMD here: http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/snes/file/588436/20656]
Personally, I think it shouldn't be used. Like the EG, it's much too powerful. What prompted me to ask is that Zanapher just discovered an awesome sequence break which will save so much time in the conventional TAS but it requires the use of DMD.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Well, my thought on EG was why do it in the full run if you can do it right at the start inside the castle and beat the game in 3 minutes? If the DMD follows the same logic, like you can do this maneuver to basically end the game far sooner than normal and remove all the fun, then I'd say don't bother. I'd probably have to look at the vid and see what happens and how much time it shortens it by.
Hey, this sounds like that trick SmashManiac used mid-way through his demo run from that other Zelda aLttP thread a year ago. Just thought I'd point out this connection in case anyone cares.
I think there will just be too much controversy over which glitches are and aren't acceptable so maybe the 100% run should utilize every glitch known and replace the current non-glitch any% run.
Borg Collective wrote:
Negotiation is irrelevant. Self-determination is irrelevant. You will be assimilated.
I think [...] the 100% run should utilize every glitch known and replace the current non-glitch any% run.
Replace the non-glitch any% run??? Hell no! You can't obsolete a non-glitch run with a full-glitch run! 100% and any% are two completely different categories. There could even be a glitched any%, non-glitched any%, glitched 100% and non-glitched 100% for that matter.
Glitched 100% should not obsolete the non-glitched any%.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Well, now we have opened a can of worms, especially since there is also the water teleport, water dash, going through walls when using levitation, and water ascend onto land (to get that lone heart piece) that I assume was going to be implemented into the any%. Also, I wonder what exploration glitch and DMD would do for 100%, and what that looks like.
When trying to sort categories for situations like this, when both any% and 100% can have glitched and glitchless versions, I try to look at the glitches, which "ruin" the fun the most via skippage, and try to create a universal rule for what defines glitchless and non-glitch.
So, maybe the above glitches that go through walls (Exploration Glitch, levitation-going-through-wall, water ascend onto land, and DMD, plus those GBA glitches, if a run were to be done on gba) would be defined as glitched, and the others: wobble, pixelporting, dashing through water, water teleport, stairs glitch (that doesn't EG) and all the others that do not skip major portions of the game by going through walls would be defined as glitchless.
-Glitched any%: the 3 minute EG run (aka beaten as fast as possible)
-Any%: glitchless (aka Flagitious's version, since I assume erokky's version was aiming to add new glitches)
-Glitched 100%: using the DMD, and water bugs (and maybe be done on GBA for those other juicy glitches)
The only reason this one should be done is to showcase these glitches, which would not be shown in the 3 other categories.
-100%: non-glitched version that dezbeast was working on
So that's my take. Here's another:
-any% EG
-any% glitched without EG or DMD, but other glitches are fair game (what I assume erokky's version aimed to accomplish)
-100% glitched (because you still have to collect all 100% items, so glitches can't be used to simply beat the game early and call it a day. Massive glitching to collect everything faster.)
The only ironic part would be if, like MMX2, 100% is faster because of this. If this is the case, same rules for glitchless any% apply to 100%.
Any glitch that enables the player to finish the game in as short time as possible should either be used to full extent or not used whatsoever. Similarly, it's common to have both conventional and glitched any% runs, a category for 100% run can be defined by entertainment value of glitched vs. conventional.
Also, don't forget the Yoshi's Island or Illusion of Gaia situations, where a 100% run is so similar to the any% that it effectively renders the any% redundant, thus allowing it to be obsoleted by a full run.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Excellent points.
EG clearly should not be done in anything else but the EG run.
I'm not sure about DMD and the water ascent (erokky what is your name for it? mine sucks) but I assume those both reduce time, but not early in the game to end the run in less than 10 minutes or so like EG can.
the SDA speedruns for any% and 100% are 15 minutes apart in length (iirc?) so I dunno if that automatically makes 100% better or not.
erokky, thoughts? It is you running this game, so your input is valued.
Chiming in late in the game here, so please excuse any ignorance. Would it be possible to make the goal of a glitch run to not be speed, but absolute ridiculous entertainment?
I imagine that it would be highly entertaining to see a run where the most ridiculous bugs are used. (Like Mortal Kombat II run)
For example, go straight to smitty, get the master sword. Go to death mountain, and warp into the dark world as the bunny. Go fail against Gannon as super bunny. Bunny Link dies.
Get the silver arrows, fire rod, and final sword. Go get zelda from the first part of the game. Have her follow you into Gannon's final chamber. If she were there for the final fight, it would be ridiculously funny.
"Zelda, I'll save you!"
" I'm ... right... here."
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
This game is far too broken to consider anything other than a glitched run. Three categories I had in mind are:
1) As fast as possible.
2) As fast as possible while killing Ganon.
3) 100%
Anything goes those are the goals.
The reason why I think a "glitchless" run is not doable in this game is because there isn't a good way to quantify a non-EG run, because the same glitches that can be used to start the EG also have other "legitimate" uses, and there's simply far too many ways to get into walls (voidwalking, stair omit, water warping, DMD.)
DarkKobold wrote:
For example, go straight to smitty, get the master sword. Go to death mountain, and warp into the dark world as the bunny. Go fail against Gannon as super bunny. Bunny Link dies.
Get the silver arrows, fire rod, and final sword. Go get zelda from the first part of the game. Have her follow you into Gannon's final chamber. If she were there for the final fight, it would be ridiculously funny.
"Zelda, I'll save you!"
" I'm ... right... here."
Methinks you need to play this game (again?)
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day,
Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
Does anybody think anything could come of use from this?
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1120329390/dd.smv
Double death. I happened to trigger it the first time, and then tried to reinactment and realized there is only a one frame opportunity when you can use the bottle. I guess I was extremely lucky the first time around. I can't find any use for this other than novelty. If anybody can find a way to exploit this to be useful, then many thanks.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
I can't think of any, especially since I don't know of any tricks or parts of the game that are speeded up by dying, let alone dying twice. I'm guessing just novelty and weirdness for now.
It's been a little while since we had the categories debate and it seems that the rate of you discovering tricks is declining (not to undershadow this one or criticize you for not finding anything substantial) but have you considered how you're going to go about with categories (like will yours use DMD and everything to kill ganon as fast as possible, and just keep EG, any%, and 100% as the three categories where any% uses every glitch besides EG) and if you will stop trick hunting and start TASing?
