Topic by JSmith

Posted: 12/2/2006 8:10 PM

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JSmith

Joined: 8/1/2006
Posts: 428

comicalflop wrote:

yes that's what I was thinking... the ony restriction is for cutter, does that count as an aerial attack if you start it on the ground or hanging on a ledge? and are spikes possible in Mario Bros?

Ground, no. Ledge, I think so, but I'm not sure. Spikes, definitely; in fact, try sucking Mario in in midair, spitting him out across the edge(still in midair) and spike 'em from there.

... but of course, 1 time unit = 50 points so yeah that tradeoff is good

Also, keep in mind you can get extra damage points on Master Hand by reducing it to 1HP and then causing a lot of damage at once, or by causing damage after the game takes away input control.

I should end the Polygon team at 3:33 to get an extra bonus there, I can definetly get way faster times than the other two high score runs, however I will not be able to match nico's 4:24. but 3:33 gives some extra time for items, should be managable, plus give me 9990 points.

It also allows you to rack up a large amount of damage on a couple of polygons; Sucking and spitting doesn't send them flying very far. Yoshi could take even more advantage of this by turning them into eggs...

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Posted: 12/2/2006 8:20 PM

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antd

Joined: 3/18/2006
Posts: 971
Location: Great Britain

I am not sure how to manipulate a plain old item appearing ^^ I've done it with crates/barrels/capsules. Time to work on Yoshi Team. I'm not 100% sure of the best method for optimising this match. Shine is a must because it kills them off sideways. Up-aerial is fast but they die too slow because they go to the back of the screen. Any ideas? Manipulating them to fall together in the same spot for a double/triple kill sounds interesting. (I know double works, have never got triple)

Posted: 12/2/2006 8:31 PM
(Edited: 12/2/2006 10:02 PM)

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Comicalflop

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Here's what I've discovered for making a plain old item appearing: Item appearing TRULY is random. it is entirely on character movement. You can test this by making a savetstate at the beginning of Yoshi stage, then go about starting to kill Yoshis in real time as fast as possible. eventually, an item will drop. note what item it is, then go back to the savestate, and then go about killing Yoshis as fast as possible in real time. (real time ensures that your actions will be VERY different.) a different item will drop at about the same time. So my guess is to TAS as fast as possible for all Yoshis, and then note which Yoshi dies before the first item appears, then keep trying different methods of killing that Yoshi until the desired item appears. Crates drop 3 items, I think I remember 3 pokeballs being possible from dropping from playing on the console, so Crate is the absolute best item to have dropped? since I'm not going for speedster since that's improbable the time wasted throwing the crate and getting the 3 pokeballs is way worth it. Can 3 mews be out at the same time? if not maybe two pokeballs can be left there, and one thrown just before Mew leaves the stage. For your Yoshi fight, throwing actually is very good, Fox has the fastest grab/throw speed and it's guaranteed to send them sideways off the screen. Double/Triple kills is also good, nico had it right in the Kirby Team fight. Also, try to manipulate at least one pokeball, because some are excellent Team killers, noticably Staryu, Snorlax, Hitmonlee, Meowth (good because you already know what spawns Meowth.) progress: currently 1 second ahead by the 3rd Yoshi grabbed.

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Posted: 12/2/2006 8:38 PM

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laughing_gas

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if you can manipulate the yoshis to pack together a pinwheel attacks takes them all out.

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Posted: 12/2/2006 8:47 PM

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Comicalflop

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that it would, but I noticed that the pinwheel has a very high chance of either missing or not really sending the Yoshis flying, and more importantly the bonuses gained from doing only throws is lost. I believe throwing is the best, it's also to manipulate pokeballs to appear, or an invincible star at the end and using only throws for single move bonus. For the Fox fight, getting Arwing clear is worth it, because assuming I only have 25 seconds range to get speedster, that's up to 1,250 points lost, which is made up for by Arwing clear's 4,000. Basically, Arwing loses it's bonuses in terms of seconds lost after 80 seconds of gameplay. How soon does the Arwing make its appearance? I think these are some important notes that I found on a website: On items in general: * If you pick up an item, *but don't use it*, you still earn No Item. * Using any item nullifies Single Move, even if the only move you make during a match is with an item. Even if the item doesn't connect it disqualifies you. Health restoration items disqualify you, too. * You never earn No Item on the Master Hand stage (where there are no items anyway). On Pokémon: Pokémon you produce... * Do count towards Item Strike (assuming no other non-item attacks are used). * Do count towards nullifying Pacifist. *only if they damage the opponent i.e. Mew won't. On thrown items: * They *probably* disqualify you for Shooter. * They do *not* disqualify you for Item Strike. * They do disqualify you for No Item. On Pacifist: * Shooter, Item Strike, Smash Mania and some other bonuses which require you to use only one type of move in defeating your opponent are NOT earned when you get Pacifist (which happens when NO move connects). On Shooter: * Projectile attacks you can use that won't disqualify you are: The "slash" part of Kirby's Air Slash (Up+B) On Single Move: * All item attacks disqualify you. * All throws disqualify you. On allies: * Whatever they do, they don't affect special bonuses dependent on your actions. If you sit back and let your comrades finish off Giant Donkey Kong, you *do* earn Pacifist! Note about the Mario Bros. fight- getting Fox as the ally shouldn't be difficult, based on this logic: when entering the Yoshi stage ona different frame, the Yoshis are different colors. So, alternating which frame I enter Mario Bros. should get me Fox. Although, if I find a perfect Bros. Calamity + True friend strategy, maybe it won't be nescessary to need Fox.

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Posted: 12/2/2006 10:22 PM

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Comicalflop

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I was beyond correct. movement before an item appears affects what item it is. I have a savestate with a crate that has a pokeball in it, but I'll try to see if I can directly get a pokeball to drop, so far I've gotten crates, eggs, star rods, in different places too. So far 10/18 Yoshi dead, 9 seconds left to likk 8 Yoshi = no speedster here. well, getting that pokeball to drop is quite difficult. I've gotten stars rods, ray guns, crates, eggs, flowers, tomoato, heart, but no pokeball. and with the pokeball, I am finding a lot of different pokemon, but still no mew yet.

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Posted: 12/2/2006 10:43 PM

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antd

Joined: 3/18/2006
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You think I should interoperate throwing into Yoshi Team? Sometimes shine is not the best move, since it has mad lag when not cancelled on the ground. I am faster than Nico, but on that section he is infact faster than me. This will take sometime, I'll see what happens if I grab a few of those dinosaurs. I've also been coming up against a super Yoshi who will not die from a shine, no matter what. WTF!

Posted: 12/2/2006 11:09 PM

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Comicalflop

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so kill him with someting else :P the only problem with throwing is you can't make double kills unless you hit another yoshi on the way. and you must wait for them to get close to the ground before killing them. I think if shine is the fastest, stick with it. The problem with Yoshi Team as compared to Kirby team is that Yoshis, if you jump up at them to shine, tend to scatter away from each other, making double kills more difficult. What you should do is try to get to the top platform as fast as possible, that way when they fall you have the least amoiunt of wait time. I'm not sure if nico did this, but you should try to get up there ASAP, even if it means forgoing a Yoshi or two on the bottom platform, they'll jump up anyways and you're not gong for score so no need to get them in order. I got a clefairy to be produced from a pokeball and mimiced Mew, but did not get the bonus. Every single pokemon has appeared except for Mew, perhaps the pokeball coming from the crate has something to do with it. I have done a lot of rerecords, and cannot find a way to make Mew show up, so I'll probably just finish the level faster than intended. or even better, I can make a star rod appear, and on the very last Yoshi throw it up at him, getting 10,000 for item pitcher instead of throwdown for 2,000. but it'd take impeccable aim to make the last Yoshi fall up and die. Qucik question: how do I taunt while running back and forth?

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Posted: 12/2/2006 11:39 PM

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antd

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Kirby can't taunt like that. I can only use shine. Every other move is too slow. I'm down to the last 5 Yoshis. No sign of Super Yoshi this time.

Posted: 12/2/2006 11:43 PM
(Edited: 12/3/2006 12:11 AM)

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Comicalflop

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That's a shame. I'm similarly down to my last Yoshis, test run should be done soon. Of course, the only point increase would be in the shorter time, I'll have to test a little to see if I can manipulate one of the items to work in my favor to give me some more bonuses. I could not make Mew appear, and throwing an item up at a Yoshi does not make him bounce up so my star rod to get tricker + item pitcher idea doesn't work. I'll see what the last item that spawns is, and if I can get that to work but otherwise it'll just be an optimally throw all Yoshi test run. I've encountered a problem... unless I don't taunt, the Yoshi's rainbow bonus will not schow because it's suppoed to scroll down, but even though I got Yoshi's Rainbow it won't give me +50,000 because it's not scrolling like it's suppoed to. I'll keep testing it, but it's weird. edit: nvm it works, i just need to press a or start. Yoshi Stage Test Run Complete beat the vid by 3 seconds; however, I might toy around a little to see if I can relle get the first item to drop a pokeball and therefore get Mew. Any increase in points of this stage is going to be dependant on that. If waiting around for each Yoshi looks a little boring, I can redo and move around and catch Yoshi in different ways, to keep it interesting; throwing Yoshi all the time like that took lillte effort to TAS.

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Posted: 12/3/2006 12:09 AM

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antd

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I've done Yoshi Team. I've beaten Nico. by +1 in game timer. I'll post up the m64 in this post. The end is not optimised. I'm figuring out what to do there. Yoshi rainbow, what is that. Edit: http://download.yousendit.com/13564B68706DD7E1 The last 3 Yoshis will of course be optimised later. 1v1 is so extremely easy to TAS because I have so much experience with it. These teams are frustrating to say the least ^^;;

Posted: 12/3/2006 12:25 AM

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laughing_gas

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yoshi's rainbow is beating the yoshis in the order they appear. What happens if you get more bonuses than the screen can handle? Are they still added into your score?

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Posted: 12/3/2006 12:29 AM
(Edited: 12/3/2006 7:39 AM)

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Comicalflop

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Yoshi rainbow gives 50,000, so it's a nescessity to have. Does the polygon team have somthing similar? If there's more bonuses than 1 screen, there's an arrow, and if you press a or start if maes another screen to accomodate for extra bonuses. If you don't hit a or start, it progresses to the next level without counting the bonus on the second screen. very weird. I highly suggest you use dehacked's microstorage for posting .m64's it much easier: DeHackEd's Microstorage

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Posted: 12/3/2006 12:33 AM

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antd

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What do you think? http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/2999/AntD1PFastest%20-%20Copy.m64 There are places that look unoptimised, but they are in fact optimised. ^^ It's all to do with the position and manipulation of spawning Yoshis. Edit: It's processing at youtube... AVI: http://download.yousendit.com/E9E56D61135C8B1E

Posted: 12/3/2006 1:06 AM
(Edited: 12/3/2006 7:41 AM)

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Comicalflop

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How do you make AVIs is it simply clicking the capture AVI in video options? I watched it, and couldn't notice anything that needed improvement, it looked pretty solid and beat nico's by 1 second. The huge improvements will come later on I'm assuming. I noticed that there were a few movements yes where you did change Yoshi spawn patterns, luckily for my run I don't have to do that :P Fox next for you at least, I still need to test if scraping in more points in Yoshi is possible. Actually... I wil make a new copy of .m64 and test if doing all cutter's in the air will lead to aerial, single move, smashless, etc. it'll be tougher to do, since cutter's hit detection is not intuitive, and every hit needs to make the Yoshi shoot up into the background. and still get them in order. I'll start that tonight.

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Posted: 12/3/2006 1:12 AM

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antd

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To make AVI's. Pause the emulator. Load your movie. Pause at where you want to begin recording the AVI. Select Record AVI in video options. Yes I think it's ok. Vs Fox should not be too difficult. I can't remember what Nico did, but it was probably along the same lines of Vs Link.

Posted: 12/3/2006 1:16 AM
(Edited: 12/3/2006 1:29 AM)

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Comicalflop

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It was exactly the same as vs. Link. Do you have the .m64 of that? I still have if you need and can't remember what the strategies were, or is it that you have it and atm cannot remember the strategy? I'll try to make an AVI, so I can pause the playback at the frame that the Yoshi stage starts, and just record the Yoshi stage? cool, I'll try that... is there any codec stuff I have to mess around with to get it to work or is it extremely easy to do? which compressor should I use?

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Posted: 12/3/2006 1:28 AM

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thegreginator

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AntD that Yoshi fight was amazing. If the other levels are as entertaining as that, this will definately get published. Question for you: are the "bullets" that the Master Hand shoots out able to be reflected? Also, can you manipulate what attack the Master Hand will do? If so, then you could get him to always do quick attacks that dont take him out of your range to beat him extra quick, not sure if the previous movie did this manipulation.

Posted: 12/3/2006 1:38 AM

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Comicalflop

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thegreginator wrote:

AntD that Yoshi fight was amazing. If the other levels are as entertaining as that, this will definately get published. Question for you: are the "bullets" that the Master Hand shoots out able to be reflected? Also, can you manipulate what attack the Master Hand will do? If so, then you could get him to always do quick attacks that dont take him out of your range to beat him extra quick, not sure if the previous movie did this manipulation.

My Yoshi fight isn't amazing? :'( Haha no just kidding, the constant Yoshi dying off the sides action makes antd's more interesting... if I test cutter it might increase entertainment, time, and scroe, but we'll see. The bullets are reflectable, but they bounce upward at an angle, overshooting the masterhand unless you were directly next to him. using the laser against him for extra shots is still the best, I'm gong to try that with Kirby assuming it works with cutter as well. I'm not sure if the Masterhand is manipulatable, but it's sure worth testing once we get there.

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Posted: 12/3/2006 1:39 AM

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antd

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I've just completed VS Fox =) Again, while incorporating the slide shine and spiking differently, I save time. Comicalflop, you need some basic codec such as wmv9 and some avi stuff. I use uncompressed, then transcode to wmv using a separate converter. Thanks. Hope the judges see it that way. Master Hand is manipulatable IIRC. I'm not sure about the bullets, good idea though ^^ Btw, good stuff comicalflop. ~ YoshiTeam Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UV9-5Ka_y5g

Posted: 12/3/2006 1:44 AM

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Comicalflop

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Damn you work fast :P I admit that a <8 minute movie with stages no more than 30 seconds a piece is going to be easy to make and you've been TASing SSB for a while, but that was fast. Wait up! (although the many wide variety of manipulation/strategies for high score makes my run harder to make I guess.) ok I'm looking for an AVI to WMV converter, I think I found one. I truly hope the judges see it too, or we've been working on great stuff for nothing. Next is Break the Target, but you skip it, and then Mario Bros. any changes from nico's on Mario Bros.?

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Posted: 12/3/2006 2:04 AM

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antd

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Your run IMO is waaaaaay harder. Which is why I didn't want to do it in the first place- haha. I do have nico's run. I just never view ahead ^^ So I'm not sure what he does vs Mario Bros. I'll be taking a break from this as I have a lot of work to do this week... Mario Bros. will take some time......

Posted: 12/3/2006 2:15 AM

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Comicalflop

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antd wrote:

Your run IMO is waaaaaay harder. Which is why I didn't want to do it in the first place- haha. I do have nico's run. I just never view ahead ^^ So I'm not sure what he does vs Mario Bros. I'll be taking a break from this as I have a lot of work to do this week... Mario Bros. will take some time......

well, in that case I'm glad you decided to do fast so that I don't have to worry about juggling two SSB TASes. You inadvertanly gave me the hard one by opting for the easy one (:P) but it'k ok, it's the one I'm more passionate about. we should plan on submitting these at the exact same time for coolness factor, despite the fact that most likely you'll be done first. I think it'd be a good idea to watch through all of nico's run a few times over, it couldn't hurt and it's a short video anyways. Mario Bros. will take a lot of time, most especially for me since I have to kill one of the brothers first without damaging the other, and still have my partner not even get hit. But go ahead and take a break, you've gotten 4 stages done while I'm still trying to optmize my 2nd. Yoshi Stage WMV

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Posted: 12/3/2006 2:27 AM
(Edited: 12/3/2006 2:32 AM)

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antd

Joined: 3/18/2006
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comicalflop wrote:

we should plan on submitting these at the exact same time for coolness factor

It couldn't be any other way ^^ The slide is invaluable, I've used it in every match so far to save time. Too bad Kirby doesn't have it.

Posted: 12/3/2006 2:32 AM

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psychoticworm

Joined: 11/30/2006
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well both vids look very good so far. You know, i was thinkin that maybe cpu 'input' can affect item drops too...but your input is what affects cpu input, so thats alot of different possibilities already. I would love to see you try to get a mew catch if at all possible for yoshiteam, it would greatly increase the score. But as it looks, its very nice so far. I also wanted to mention something about partners that show up for you in the Mario Bros stage. I am pretty sure that sometime right before your list of bonuses comes up for BtT stage, that the variables are already written to the ram for what character will help you during the mario bros fight. I'm guessing this because every time I loaded the savestate I had between BtT and Mario Bros, it gave me fox, no matter how long I waited after the bonus list to go on. If this is the case, then determining what character you get for MB will be extremely difficult...what do you think?