Topic by mwl

Posted: 10/30/2006 9:01 PM

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mwl

Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 636

I think a 1P score attack would be the most appropriate run for this site, and I look forward to its development. You'd almost certainly want to use Kirby. His swallow attack can be easily abused so that you can snatch the giant "Pacifist" bonus on every N vs. 1 stage, except Stage 8 (where the acid does not kill Samus immediately, so instead you'll want to use forward+A to knock her off the edge of the screen). The trick involves swallowing the opponent and waiting for a few seconds for Kirby to automatically spit him/her back out -- the game does not count this as an attack and hence your chances of getting the Pacifist bonus aren't jeopardized. For the multi-opponent stages, you'll want to defeat the enemies in the given sequence, and use the R-button grab to OHKO each of them. The best reference tool you have is the video I posted a few pages ago in this topic. This 2.35M-point tool-assisted recording was created by the same person who holds the current unassisted WR, standing at 1.8M points as verified by Twin Galaxies. The TAS seems to be nearly optimal, with the exception of the "Target Test" and "Board the Platforms" stages.

Posted: 10/30/2006 9:19 PM

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laughing_gas

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mwl wrote:

The holder of the 1-Player SSB high score (verified by Twin Galaxies) made an excellent tool-assisted video as well. Note that he was aiming for a high score, not a fast time -- but there is little difference, as you'll see: http://media.putfile.com/SSB-N64-1P-Kirby-2353785pts

I believe the link is broken.

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Posted: 10/30/2006 9:41 PM

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mwl

Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 636

If the link's expired, I can't really do anything about it since I don't have a hard copy of it saved on my computer. I didn't realize that media uploaded to Putfile had a set expiration -- the video was definitely online between December 2005 (when it was uploaded) and June of this year. Your best bet might well be to just ask the guy himself: http://www.twingalaxies.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2247&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15 He's been inactive for almost a year, though. =(

Posted: 10/31/2006 1:01 AM

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Bag_of_Magic_Food

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Would it work to inhale someone while falling off the stage?

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Posted: 10/31/2006 1:08 AM

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thegreginator

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Yeah that should work. Another option is using Yoshi and using B to get the opponent in an egg that falls off the edge. A lot of this TAS would be manipulating the behavior of the CPU. You'd also have to consider if you wanted to manipulate certain items to appear for things like the polygon team where a pacifist bonus would be difficult. Good luck on this run antd, I look forward to seeing it.

Posted: 10/31/2006 4:04 PM

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antd

Joined: 3/18/2006
Posts: 971
Location: Great Britain

Link BtT 11"29 Normal Record is 11"31 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECgr6g_SU_8 It's a WIP. I lose some time at the end I'm sure of it... Ok. So pick Kirby and complete as fast as possible whilst getting pacifist? Clearly I should complete the bonuses stages since those add points? How can Kirby move slightly forward when he sucks someone up? I never did find this out =x

Posted: 10/31/2006 5:08 PM

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Bob_A

Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 432

I remember being able to get a higher score with donkey kong than kirby, including lots of pacifist bonuses. It's just a matter of manipulating the cpu to kill themself/itself as fast as possible, which should work especially well in a tas.

Posted: 10/31/2006 10:44 PM

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mwl

Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 636

Did you get above 2.35 million? If not, it doesn't matter.

Posted: 11/1/2006 2:51 AM

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Bob_A

Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 432

I forgot.

Posted: 11/28/2006 3:58 PM

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Comicalflop

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I was looking through the submissions and noticed that all 3 SSB submissions were cancelled/rejected (the Kirby high score one deservedly so)... if a high score Kirby pacifist run were done, would that be cancelled because I remember from that 10 minute vid that a lot of edge grabbing was done, or would a redo of the fastest time Fox run be accepted? I also found a website that lists every stage clear bonus and how many points it gives for receiving it: http://smashbros.planets.gamespy.com/game_ssb_bonus.php

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Posted: 11/28/2006 8:02 PM

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Bag_of_Magic_Food

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They made mistakes on a few of them, though, like Judo Warrior and Vegetarian.

put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude

Posted: 11/28/2006 8:11 PM

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Comicalflop

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so would a flawless fastest time/highest score be accepted that had no such mistakes? if so I'll consider this...

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Posted: 11/28/2006 8:21 PM

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laughing_gas

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fastest time would be interesting to watch. It's a question of which character would be the best at this. I think DK might be the best choice for this category, since his spin attack devastates teams.

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Posted: 11/28/2006 8:46 PM

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Comicalflop

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The previous two SSB fastest runs used Fox for good reason, being the fastest and having very clever use of the down+B to basically push everybody away. While the move got repetitive, I think it is THE best to use for most cases in the fastest run. I just hope improving the mistakes won't make it get rejected again. DK's spin attack is only good versus Kirby team, Yoshi Team and Polygon team because I've noticed up+B attacks for any character make the enemies fly away the farthest. I'm also leaning to the Kirby pacifist run as well, but the link expired so I can't see the 10 minute high score run... I'm sure it could be improved, but I'd need to see it because I vaguely remember it but don't have memorized all of the strategies. So if anyone has or can get, that'd be great.

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Posted: 11/28/2006 9:10 PM

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laughing_gas

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against single opponents DK can just knock them off the ledge and do the forward+A smash for an instant kill. Getting them to the ledge quickly is a harder problem.

Borg Collective wrote:

Negotiation is irrelevant. Self-determination is irrelevant. You will be assimilated.

Posted: 11/28/2006 9:22 PM
(Edited: 11/28/2006 9:47 PM)

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Comicalflop

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any character can do that though, and some better than DK like Ness, Fox, Kirby... I have Ness after letting the SSB submission fight Ness, and I have no idea how to DUI or whatever that jump cancelling stuff is... Ness would be a good contender if anyone wanted to play through a second or thirs time through the game... Edit: just for kicks I started two files, one with aiming for fastest time with Fox (I have both of the previous fastest runs with Fox, so I'll look at those for mistakes to fix but they are minor, unless I am missing something major) and the other file started with highest score with Kirby. as I start these test runs, if anyone can point out glaring faults in the cancelled/rejected runs and either find the movie or remembers enough about the Kirby high score to offer input, it'd be greatly appreciated.

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Posted: 11/28/2006 9:36 PM

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laughing_gas

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ness is pretty bad against the teams.

Borg Collective wrote:

Negotiation is irrelevant. Self-determination is irrelevant. You will be assimilated.

Posted: 11/28/2006 9:46 PM

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Zurreco

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laughing_gas wrote:

against single opponents DK can just knock them off the ledge and do the forward+A smash for an instant kill. Getting them to the ledge quickly is a harder problem.

I'm pretty sure Fox, Captain Falcon, and Ness are the fastest killers in the game. Fox is the second fastest/can push people off with his shield, CF is the fastest and has a very strong smash and spike technique, and Ness has the best spike in the game. There is no way that DK is faster than these three, since he has to lumber over to his opponent and set up two hits, both of which take a lot of time to do. DK would probably only excell in the Wire Frame battle, and even that is a long shot.

hi nitrodon streamline: cyn-chine

Posted: 11/28/2006 9:50 PM

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Comicalflop

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Alright so I'll be starting these and see what happens, I guess since neither run is playing the game a second time then Ness and Falcon are out of the equation. I assume that if antd wanted to ever combine his work of the BtT and BtP into one run, he could complete the game 3 times, first with Fox, second with Ness, third with Falcon to keep it interesting, than procede to beat all 48 records. Before I start, if anyone wants to heavily look at what can be improved in either of the previous runs, feel free, as I don't think I'll be able to 100% check that by myself. I think I have a rough idea of a few things that can be corrected, but if someone could find all the faults that'd be great. And in the menu selection, hardest difficulty is selected, and because you have to wait a while before you can hit start, I can bring it down to 1 stock and still start on the first possible frame. Of course that does nothing because I'm not going to lose any lives anyways, but I might as well since I have a 20 frame time with nothing better to do. The high score run will benefit at the end for having 1 stock only, but the fast run it doesn't matter at all since that's time and not score (although it loses no time to do so.) Fastest time menu navigation SSB High Score menu navigation No action yet, but just to give an idea of the two seperate game files. Edit: I tried emailing psychoticworm, I couldn't reach him so unfortunately unless someone completely memorized the high score video, I'm going to be going in blind... hopefully either myself or someone can refind or discover the strategies to make this possible. A question (mostly cuz I don't want to go ahead all for naught): fixing the mistakes of fastest completion, and all the edge-grabbing and swallowing of the high score.... would it be publishable and not get rejected? haha um yeah I think I've asked this before, but it would be a shame to get another rejected run...

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Posted: 11/29/2006 5:12 AM

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Comicalflop

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While I may be without the high score run, I was able to get antd's youtube vids... those are nice, I wonder if the wavedashing and shieldbreaking techniques can speed up the Fox's fastest completion... it'd be nice for say, the samus or metal mario levels. If it was as fast or faster than simply doing down+B all the time, it'd remove the repition. (too bad only the wavedashing or parry/jump cancelling can have usefulness to high score run.) antd I noticed that those used frame advance, how do you perform those moves? specifically: wavedashing jump cancelling/parry the shield breaking techniques And as a side note for the high score run, killing all the yoshi's in order nets +50,000 points, which may be a huge time saver as instead of waiting for all the yoshi's to kill themselves to instead kill them in order, saving time and only losing 10,000 points. (if of course that 10,000 can be made up for in other levels, which I assume can be done.) would definetly break up the monotony of always holding onto the ledge.

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Posted: 11/29/2006 5:36 AM

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Chef_Stef

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Wavedashing is only in Super Smash Bros Melee, since it involves air-dodging into the ground. This Super Smash Bros doesn't have air-dodging.

Posted: 11/29/2006 6:05 AM
(Edited: 11/29/2006 8:25 AM)

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Comicalflop

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There is, but it's slow. It's featured in antd's youtube videos, here It's not wavedashing per se but mimics it... I believe that it more involves jump cancelling, and I think would only be useful for parrying (avoiding hits) and showing off, or for getting in lots of hits with the other techniques i.e. the shield breakers. I just spent 20 minutes reading through the gruefood forums of both the Fox SSB submissions (wow it got really heated and intense)... does anyone have input on what I should do differently in the TAS to avoid that? some ideas I've had: High score: you get 100 points for taungting, but the mystic and comet mystic bonus awards for being off screen give much more, +7,000 and +10,000 respectively (mystic is off screen but not dead, comet is falling in the background but still alive when CPU dies) I think that comet mystic would be hard to pull off (although maybe not with Kirby's flying and cutter) but 7,000/10,000 is better than 100. I have a list of all bonus awards, so maybe in some levels pacifist will not be used to favor something else doable. fastest completion: the shield breaking looks promising to drastically shorten the metal mario fight. I really feel as if some method to rapidly attack/move Mario will get him closer to the edge, and look more impressive. and poll: should final Ness fight be done as in the 7:09 submission?

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Posted: 11/29/2006 7:15 AM

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Comicalflop

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Here's my gameplan (sorry will be quite long and a little confusing, but it's tiny notes for me) *Fox Fastest TAS completion level by level analysis:* (most levels that normally shine-push the enemy I'll test to see if shield breaking can be faster, but I doubt it) Link: Shine, or shield break, if shine try to get Link to die faster on down with maybe aerial Z canceling? Yoshi Team: up+B seems to work perfectly, try to manipulate yoshis or hit them faster Fox: Shine or shield break, same as Link Bonus 1 BtT: Skip by jumping over ledge Mario/Luigi: Shine or shield break Pikachu: edge grab for fastest, shine may be faster? DK: edge grab, try to manipulate him to fall faster Bonus 2 BtP: Skip by falling through floor to save 17 frames Kirby Team: Shine works, maybe a little more manipulation Samus: definetly try shield break, test if up+A infinite is faster to make Samus fall off top screen (unlikely) or just improve the comboing; if these don't work, try to optimize making Samus go off screen right Metal Mario: MUST make faster, test all methods of attacking/luck manipulation Shield Breaking, Shining, jump cancel attacking- make Metal Mario’s not moving work to attack extremely fast, test if high%damage + smash attack can make Metal Mario go off platform fast to set up an edgeguard Polygon Team: Shine works, maybe try to manipulate them more, and use luck manipulation for better items? Pokeball, gun? Master Hand: fight was near perfect, try to squeeze in a few more lasers, maybe more aerial assaults, find the fastest/best damage attack and use it consistently Skip Ness fight? In hard mode seems necessary, plus credits go by super fast, unless credits count as end of game *Kirby High Score TAS level by level analysis:* Link: pacifist strat, test if swallow suicide maneuver works Yoshi Team: very tough/long, edge grab or swallow, possible Yoshi Rainbow award instead of Pacifist? Combine with comet mystic? Fox: pacifist strat, Arwing clear? Bonus 1 BtT: try to beat WR (I have a vid, I see areas of improvement so it's possible) will apply antd's BtT methods to make faster Mario/Luigi: pacifist strat, kill Luigi first for Brother’s Calamity Pikachu: easy Pacifist with edge grab DK: Swallow suicide maneuver, if not pacifist strat Bonus 2 BtP: try to beat WR (I have a vid, I see areas of improvement so it's possible) will apply antd's BtP methods to make faster Kirby Team: pacifist strat, attempt for Kirby ranks, luck manipulation a must to make Kirbies die in order, possible speedster/no pacifist? Lose out on 25,000 if so at gain of time Samus: Pacifist possible? Make Samus kill herself via Acid? Maybe not viable, speedster with star finish/kill off left edge? Comet mystic with star finish via cutter? Metal Mario: Pacifist with swallow Polygon Team: Harder than Yoshi fight, however no bonus for getting them in order and no chance of speedster so probably Pacifist a must, use items to boost score i.e. pokeball (mew) tomatoes/heart pieces Master Hand: use aerial attacks for hawk, probably down+A air for best damage, up+B for hitting Hand out of range? Skip Ness fight? In hard mode seems necessary, plus credits go by super fast, unless credits count as end of game Thoughts? The fast completion has a run that I'm trying to obsolete so planning will be less, but more care will be taken to ensure it's faster and better... High Score I don't have the run, so I made educated guesses (most of them right I think) on how each level should be fought, if anyone thinks/knows of a better strategy feel free to make addendums and/or suggestions antd I'd especially like any/all help that you can give, for how to perfect TASing this game, beating the WR's of the bonus stages, and mastering the moves you demonstrate on youtube. I actually have a question: I know enemy behavior is affected by movement (how so?), are the items luck manipulatable and if so how? like can the exact item be made to fall (can't affect item drop times because that's ingrained I believe) or variables within the item be selected? Normal Mystic is bad because you lose a life, but comet mystic is still possible since it requires that you don't die but are in falliing animation in background. So Taunts will be used, I'm guessing that a comet mystic is going to be very difficult to pull off, especially since A) there are few levels where you can float up, up+B and fall off and B) if you are edge guarding, good luck getting off the top of the screen before the CPU hits the bottom and dies Maybe... Fox level if Arwing comes fast enough (for it to bring me up the screen, I can't remember how fast the arwing comes or if I'd have time to fall off the ceiling), Samus level, since Samus is off killing herself from acid maybe it's possible to get both pacifist and comet mystic, since I believe the ceiling is low enough to jump from the highest platform; polygon/Yoshi team maybe, and I do not know about any others.

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Posted: 11/29/2006 5:40 PM

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laughing_gas

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As long as you get it under 8 minutes you'll get the speed demon bonus, so that gives you some time to spare. Taking no damage throughout the whole thing gives you a 300,000 bonus, but I don't know if that interferes with comet/mystic. Maybe some insane luck manipulation to get the pacifist bonus against the single opponents?

Borg Collective wrote:

Negotiation is irrelevant. Self-determination is irrelevant. You will be assimilated.

Posted: 11/29/2006 5:58 PM

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Comicalflop

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8 minutes I'm not so sure about, if I tried to speedster the Yoshi's with rainbow bonus, and had insane luck manipulation on every enemy and optimal bonus/Master Hand fights than 8 might be possible, but not likely. 8+ to under 10 is my expected range. I think normal mystic is a complete no go, as it makes you lose a life. Taking no damage is a given :p As with Starfox 64, should time be wasted to get a higher score, like setting up a comet mystic or trying to get mew catch (+15,000 for finding mew in pokeball)? Insane luck manipulation is going to be the name of the game, throughout the entire run (except of course for bonuses and master hand.) to manipulate enemies, do you move in different directions, do different input or test different frames to do stuff in order to make them move the way you want? I'm used to the luck manipulation of DKC2 where the frame you enter a level determines the outcome in most bosses, I'm not familiar with enemy movement manipulating. One trick I need to know about is: Kirby swallowing, how do you move while you have someone swallowed? or do you have to swallow/spit them out and keep going until you spit them beyond the platform and do the suicide swallow maneveur?

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