Joined: 2/14/2007
Posts: 128
Sorry, you misunderstood me. I meant that you should create Gooey, and then actually control him manually with controller 2 -- just like in the Kirby Superstar run on this site. The loss in health for Kirby shouldn't make a difference, as I can't see damage-boosting being useful in this game. Of course Kirby isn't going to use many of the abilities. But Gooey can mess around with everything while Kirby moves forward. e.g.: - Kirby creates Gooey, who follows Kirby (or jumps in pits, or whatever...) - Gooey stops to eat an enemy. This most likely causes him to fall behind Kirby, so he warps back and continues following Kirby. - Gooey stops at an enemy (while Kirby keeps moving on) to showcase the power, then warps back to Kirby. - Gooey sees another power or helper, and changes things up.... Of course, Gooey can't use a helper if Kirby is using it to travel faster. But there are a lot of auto-scrolls in this game, and during that time Kirby and Gooey (each with different powers) could trade the helper back and forth.... Gooey could even be used to speed up bosses. You said that you have to go out of your way to get parasol for Pon&Con. Well, Gooey could detour to get the power while Kirby doesn't slow down, and then Gooey could do the boss fighting -- or he could pass the ability to Kirby. Do you plan on having a helper for Pon&Con? If not, then Gooey could grab Chuchu or Rick in a previous level, and then combine it with Kirby's parasol for a powerful weapon. Of course, manually controlling Gooey will be a lot of extra work, but it will greatly increase the entertainment value of what would otherwise be a mostly not-too-exciting movie. And Gooey can help speed up some things (I'm thinking helping Kirby break through frozen blocks, for example).
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Joined: 10/6/2007
Posts: 330
Location: B.C Canada
I'm going for a one player run. new levels 1-2. If someone can teach me how to replay a movie from a certain spot to check it, that would be great. That way I wouldn't have to fast forward through the first two levels every time. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/416310397/Kirby%27s%20Dream%20Land%20346%20%28U%29.smv *edit* Had some desync troubles in level 3 at the mini game. Have to do the rest of that level over again. (I need to make more back ups) Though I did something that I think I could have done differently to save some time, so I might just do that whole level again. Am sort of excited about stage 4. I get to use nago to go fast and show off at the same time. Also, that's where I would take my first damage to save time. (I may have to get a maximum tomato in the jump game at some point) There are some levels I'm absolutely dreading. I don't like the scrolling levels since I have to do fancy stuff to keep it entertaining, and there are some levels I always get clobbered at. The frame advance is rather difficult to use. I mainly use it to start running quickly, and for getting on the animal friends. I use landmarks when I need to make precise jumps. *EDIT 2* Have now gotten stages 1-3 done. Also half way through stage 4. Even I will admit now that the frame advance is very useful. I never would have been able to tackle this one part of a room without it. Though it seems that my video desyncs when I try to use frame advance and turbo controls at the same time. It desunk :D Durning the mini game when I used it, and desunk during the above mentioned part. I also love having back ups. They have saved my life several times. I'm actually starting to worry a bit about the pon and con fight. I think Parasol is a bit too far out of my way to get. I also dread the Acro fight (have you noticed that there is a lot I'm dreading?) I'll probably post my next video once I've completed grass land. *edit 3* By a complete and total one in a zillion chance, I discovered a neat trick which I expect to abuse throughout the whole run. This trick allows me to swallow an ability and go in a door at the same time, thus skipping the animation shown when getting an ability. While I myself am not 100% sure how it works, I can get it to work most of the time. Though I found this trick after I already could have used it once, so I'll have to do a bit of back tracking. I have also discovered that when you get hurt with an animal friend, you can jump off it while the damage animation is going. This ends up helping me in a couple places. I use the frame advance a lot in this level.
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Joined: 10/6/2007
Posts: 330
Location: B.C Canada
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/343797531/Kirby%27s%20Dream%20Land%20348%20%28U%29.smv Here's the link for my levels 1-4. I watched Comicalflop's run, and have replicated/copied some stuff for level 4. Although you won't see that in this video. It's in my second attempt (work in progress) I also made a discovery that I'm sure everyone already knew. I already knew gooey could get on an animal friend, but I did NOT know that the animal will warp with him! This will help me muchly. I can still take nago through level 4 and save time, if not IMPROVE time on that level. Seeing as how all the hours of the day that I can get anything productive done are up, I will have to put my plan into action tommorow. Playing with two players will be a bit tricky, but since I have my controller attachment, I can just use my standard configuration of keys on the computer for gooey. I'll have to remember to record with both controllers selected. I'm very excited about this and I now have the most enthusiasm I've ever had for this project.
Editor, Experienced player (734)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Well, my old WIP can be improved in various small areas, and I think doing it 2 player is worth it. As I constantly tell many new members, you will not start right off the bat being the best TASer and get instant unbeatable results. TASing takes practice and effort... I redid my very first TAS 8 times until I was satisfied to submit it. 1 year later I'm still not satisfied with the results and aim to eventually do a complete 100% optimal redo. You probably should be using more rerecords than you are. I had about 1,376 while at the same spot you have 249. It's a different and longer way of playing, but more optimal to play frame by frame and have used rerecords to find the first possible frame to jump, turn, swallow, etc. So for this game... I can't watch since I deleted my ROM a long while ago. If you're a minute slower than me, even after 5 stages... that's probably not a good thing. You should probably be using frame advance for everything, it really makes the difference between a good TAS and an excellent TAS. Memory Watching might also be a good idea. Are you using turbo Coo flying? it's the fastest form of flying I found. There was also a transparency bug involving water, so if you really are committed to this, find some settings or something that will make this work the way it's supposed to. Those are two good finds, with getting an ability while going through a door to cancel the animation, and boosting off an animal when getting hit. So keep at it. I think a 2 player kirby run would be real nice to see, kinda like kirby super star.
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Joined: 2/14/2007
Posts: 128
I'm really pleased that you're doing a 2-player run after all. Gooey will be the main form of entertainment. I've never actually tested whether the final boss takes extra damage from being hit by the heart rod directly instead of the heart projectiles. At the very least, it does the same damage and looks more fancy, so abuse it. Of course, you have a while to wait before you need to bother testing this.... One thing in Kirby Superstar is that bosses have about 25% extra health if a helper is present at the start. I don't think that happens in this game, but I never use computer-controlled Gooey against bosses, so I'm not sure.
Former player
Joined: 10/6/2007
Posts: 330
Location: B.C Canada
Comicalflop wrote:
You probably should be using more rerecords than you are. I had about 1,376 while at the same spot you have 249. It's a different and longer way of playing, but more optimal to play frame by frame and have used rerecords to find the first possible frame to jump, turn, swallow, etc.
The way I do things is a bit different. I don't re-record every time. I just use normal state loads when experimenting and practicing since it doesn't take as long to set up. Only when I'm sure I can do it perfectly do I rerecord. *edit* I feel stupid for not knowing that you could re-record just by state loading. From what I gathered, you had to reopen the rom every time to re-record. Stupid me.*end edit* And for floogal, it wont' be 2 player like you think. I'm just gonna take out Gooey when I find it necessary.
Joined: 5/12/2007
Posts: 76
Sorry, but I see a lot of improvements. Try doing something like this: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/19700065/Kirby%27s%20Dream%20Land%203.smv (V. 1.51), and this: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/753831298/KDL3.smv (V. 1.43 + 9 record-reset).
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Joined: 10/6/2007
Posts: 330
Location: B.C Canada
Yes, well please take into consideration that you have two people and I don't. Am starting over once again to try and fix things up. I'm not sure if taking nago was faster though. *edit* my stage 1 is going really well so far. At the point where I am in the level, I'm only 139 frames behind Comicalflop's time. I actually had a little trick that might have put me ahead of him, But I needed to sacrifice time to get spark. I need spark for the second stage for a trick that will hopfully make up for the lost time, if not put me ahead. If at any point in the run I can get ahead of his time, that will be a motivation boost. Though I may end up losing time in the fourth level. I am going to use coo until I can get nago. I will then make gooey and let him take nago. Hopefully the way I do things can save time in the long run. Though Coo would be nice to have for the first part of stage 5. We'll see what happens. Flop got rid of stone, but I have a good use for it in stage 6. Hopefully that will make up for some lost time. *edit 2* Having realized that I can get spark at the end of the level without wasting any time, I am now only 21 frames behind Flop. A small enough number to easily make up for in stage two with my spark trick. (though I have not yet finished stage 1, so I may be further behind by then.)
Joined: 5/12/2007
Posts: 76
Actually, my brother sort of dropped out, so I had to do this alone (well, not Level 1-1). It's not that hard if you use frame advance...
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Joined: 10/6/2007
Posts: 330
Location: B.C Canada
That must be a hassle. Too bad your brother left. I now have a great accomplishment (in my opinion) that has really got me into this now. I was able to beat Comical flop's level 1 by *drumroll* 4 frames! :O Yeah I know. It's not much, but it's a huge success and enthusiasm boost for me! But I have Comicalflop to thank for this. I got really motivated and vowed I would beat his level 1. My original attempt was crap compared to this. I saw little things in his run I knew I could do better, so I had the confidence to do it. So here is my Stage 1 "super" run! YOSH1's 2 player run is about 86 frames faster. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1571632398/Kirby%27s%20Dream%20Land%203654%20%28U%29.smv *edit* I've looked over this level carefully, and I can't find anything I could do to improve it. Looks like this is the one after all! Thanks again for motivating me ComicalFlop!
Joined: 11/6/2007
Posts: 9
Location: Yoshi's Island 2
Hi! Nice to meet you all! (This is Y0SH1's brother) I'm sorry I dropped out.. I'm working on a Parallel Worlds TAS. It's been a while since I worked on the Kirby DL3 project. The TAS wasn't that good, anyway.. We didn't know about frame advance at the time. Do you guys know if a fixed version exists? Because when I played it on the computer, I could've sworn that there wasn't any mistakes like the one we're using right now. I was using ZSNES, though. (Sorry, am I repeating myself? I tend to do that a lot.) Okay... Well, I think that's all I have to say.
We're no strangers to love..
Former player
Joined: 10/6/2007
Posts: 330
Location: B.C Canada
Well it's nice ta meet'cha! I didn't know you could record files on ZSNES. Like I knew you could record, but I didn't know you could save the files outside of the program. just a quick note that I thought I'd mention. I'm losing lots of time by not being able to start running at the start of a room right away. I cannot find a proper turbo for left and right. I'd love it if someone could tell me a way to use it. The turbo left and right with the hotkeys don't really work for kirby's running. Also, I'll explain why I got spark (now that I know it saved time by getting it) At the very end of the first level, I got spark. (i used the go in door and get power at same time glitch (which I really got to figure out how to make work every time.)) In the second level, to get into the room with the green spring guy, (he has a name, but I'm too lazy to look it up. Did you ever notice he looks like a butt? (that's what Chu Chu said to him in the Kirby's Dream Land 3 4koma manga)) you have to break a bunch of Star Blocks blocking the door. Comical flop broke them by getting off of Chu Chu, sliding into the blocks, jumping to destroy the ones above, and then get back on Chu Chu. With the spark ability from the previous level, I can use Chu Chu's spark attack (the equivalent of Laser from Kirby's Adventure) to break all the block in one go without having to get off of chu chu, and wasting time with the animation when you get back on chu chu. By doing this, I saved a whopping 183 frames! :O Akk! My show's starting! *logs out*
Joined: 5/12/2007
Posts: 76
Pekopon wrote:
just a quick note that I thought I'd mention. I'm losing lots of time by not being able to start running at the start of a room right away. I cannot find a proper turbo for left and right.
Y0SH1 wrote:
I figured out that: -You can jump, and hit an enemy from below to fall quicker. -Using Gooey's lick in midair makes him fall faster. -Holding left (or right) before you start a room gets you a walking start. If you don't hold it down, you have to wait a little longer to start going.
:D Oh yeah, and good job on finding that swallowing glitch!
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Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Pekopon wrote:
I now have a great accomplishment (in my opinion) that has really got me into this now. I was able to beat Comical flop's level 1 by *drumroll* 4 frames! :O Yeah I know. It's not much, but it's a huge success and enthusiasm boost for me! But I have Comicalflop to thank for this. I got really motivated and vowed I would beat his level 1. My original attempt was crap compared to this. I saw little things in his run I knew I could do better, so I had the confidence to do it. So here is my Stage 1 "super" run! YOSH1's 2 player run is about 86 frames faster. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1571632398/Kirby%27s%20Dream%20Land%203654%20%28U%29.smv *edit* I've looked over this level carefully, and I can't find anything I could do to improve it. Looks like this is the one after all! Thanks again for motivating me ComicalFlop!
Good job on beating me by 4 frames, glad to help out with motivation. My WIP was way back in, gosh, november last year? so there's no way it was unbeatable, not that early in my career. BUT, if YOSHI's 2 player is 86 frames faster... than you really should be doing the run 2 player.
Pekopon wrote:
Akk! My show's starting! *logs out*
please say it's Heroes, I love that show.
Homepage ☣ Retired
Joined: 11/6/2007
Posts: 9
Location: Yoshi's Island 2
:| Man, when did I last play KDL3, anyway..? I wonder.. I believe it was sometime in June? Maybe July.. I don't want to say I won't continue, but I might try..
We're no strangers to love..
Joined: 11/6/2007
Posts: 9
Location: Yoshi's Island 2
This I think might disappoint a bit, but it's also good news. I think Y0SH1 and I might start from scratch using frame advance after I'm done with my first part of Parallel Worlds. I can't confirm it though. *EDIT* Sorry for the double post.
We're no strangers to love..
Former player
Joined: 10/6/2007
Posts: 330
Location: B.C Canada
Comicalflop wrote:
Pekopon wrote:
if YOSHI's 2 player is 86 frames faster... than you really should be doing the run 2 player.
Pekopon wrote:
Akk! My show's starting! *logs out*
please say it's Heroes, I love that show.
I really think that a two player run would be too complicated for me. Keep in mind, this is my very first run, and quite an ambitious one if you ask me. I'm a newbie at TASing, so don't ask the unreasonable. (that may have sounded rude, but it was not intended to be so) It's like asking a kindergardener to read Harry Potter: Order of the Phoenix. (which is hard by my standards. I don't read too much) I'll probably end up using gooey sometimes, but not always. He may pop out once and a while to save a bit of time or carry an animal friend, but that's probably all. Also, I figured out how to properly work the left and right turbo. You only turn the turbo on for like, one frame. IF I ever finish this one, I MIGHT (but highly unlikely) do a full blown two player run, eventually, some day, maybe. Aren't there separate categories for 1 and 2 player runs anyway?
Joined: 11/6/2007
Posts: 9
Location: Yoshi's Island 2
Hey, what if we released two TASes at the same time? One with both players 100%, the other is single 100%? Then again, it would be kinda difficult to go through the game without taking Gooey out, with someone playing as him..
Also, I figured out how to properly work the left and right turbo. You only turn the turbo on for like, one frame.
Just so ya know, one frame can only act like it's pressing one button. (XD Sorry, I just wanted to say that. I'm terrible at explaining things.)
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Sir_VG
He/Him
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Joined: 10/9/2004
Posts: 1913
Location: Floating Tower
CrispyYoshi wrote:
Hey, what if we released two TASes at the same time? One with both players 100%, the other is single 100%? Then again, it would be kinda difficult to go through the game without taking Gooey out, with someone playing as him..
Also, I figured out how to properly work the left and right turbo. You only turn the turbo on for like, one frame.
Just so ya know, one frame can only act like it's pressing one button. (XD Sorry, I just wanted to say that. I'm terrible at explaining things.)
Personally, if you do 2 runs, I say do 1P Low% and 2P 100%.
Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing
Former player
Joined: 10/6/2007
Posts: 330
Location: B.C Canada
Not trying to be smart or anything, but I'm just doing 97% For the 100%, you have to do the mini games, the jump game, and the boss butch. I'm gonna skip that. *edit* Now have stages 1 and 2 done. 169 frames faster than Comicalflop's due to spark chu chu. (not bragging) http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/993442708/Kirby%27s%20Dream%20Land%203656%20%28U%29.smv can anybody actually view this? because if nobody can even see it, I'll stop posting my WIP every stage. Stage 4 will be a major pain since I might have to do it twice. I'm gonna see if taking nago at the half way point in the stage is faster than taking coo. Nago can beat up the mini boss a lot quicker. (only two hits required) and navigate through the cave part quicker. I have to see if taking coo at the last section of the stage would make up for it. I think it probably will, so I may have to redo part of the stage. I can get through the first two parts of that stage with coo very quickly and skillfully. Unless anyone can view these, I might wait till the end of grass land to post. I'm very anxious to finish the fourth stage since I've redone this run a few times and always ended up restarting at the end of stage 4 *edit 2* speaking of restarting.......... I have to bloody restart again. I'm getting lots of desync issues, and I looked in a thread about Snesx9 desync, and noticed I had one of the things selected that causes desync. Also, I fast forward through my run during playback. I'm not supposed to do that. So yeah. Restart. @%&! At least I got to the point where I knew taking nago in the fourth stage was slower. So I'll have to take Coo. I am quickly losing enthusiasm since I still haven't gotten past stage 4. It's nice how stage 3 is relatively short and easy though. *edit 3* I had some really weird desync problems at the end of stage 2. I eventually got it working though. This run through is much faster than my last one so far. By jumping right away at the end of stage jump game, you jump to the fourth square and save tons of time. Though getting that to work is a nightmare. It seems that it only works in certain set ups. The set ups are determined by something, but I'm not sure what. The first stage I got lucky and it worked first try. The second stage is where I had desync trouble. I could get the setup to work and jump it properly, but the playback didn't like it and made me jump else where and then desync. Half of my re-records are because of this. The only way I could get the right set up was to inhale while getting the Heart Star. If I just ran and got it, it would give me a set up that wouldn't work. Somehow or other I did get it to work. It was either by redoing the run from a certain room, or by turning the right+left/up+down on. I did both at the same time, so I'm not sure which fixed it. I hope changing the setting doesn't further desync my video. This run is way faster, but I can't compare to my last video anymore since that video had desunk by the point I'm at in my new run
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Joined: 10/6/2007
Posts: 330
Location: B.C Canada
Sorry to double post, but an important discovery has been made. As I had previously mentioned, The ideal jump mini game is to jump instantly and land on the fourth square. However, the first frame the you are allowed to jump on, changes between different item set ups. This meaning that on some setups, the first frame you are allowed to jump on will only get you to the second square. Because of this, you need to get one of the set ups that lets you jump the first frame possible. I have discovered that for some reason, the (Y) button determines what the set up will be. This is why I could only get it to work in the second stage by inhaling (Y button) It changes the set up for each frame you hold it down for. It doesn't only effect the set up in the heart star room. any time in the stage you press the Y button, it will change the set up. This is also true for jumping (B) but I don't know if it changes for every frame you hold it down for. Holding (Y) also effects (to a much lesser extent) which Gordo will appear first in the first mini game. I also discovered that the next gordo face is affected by the frame you select the answer for the previous one (was that too complex or just poorly explained?) So therefore, you may see me randomly inhale in the heart star room. just so you know. It's much harder to do properly with an animal friend (or at least coo) since their inhaling sequence lasts a long time before it stops. Kirby can jump and inhale without wasting frames since he can shut his mouth before hitting the ground. I'm not sure if this applies to Chu Chu and Rick (or Blob and Hom as my brother and I call them) since they don't have actual inhaling animations. I discovered a small form of Luck manipulation! *Woot!* And just so you know, stages 1-3 are done....again I still have desync issues, and I have some lag on stage 3. I hope that doesn't affect the publishing chance too much. *dreams* *edit 1* it seems that the (Y) manipulator only works when you don't have an ability. So if you want to keep an ability to the next stage, you either have to do the jump manipulation, (which I technically haven't checked to see if it works whilst wielding an ability) or just get danged lucky. That is what happened to me in stage 3 and 4. Speaking of stage 4, for the very first time, I'm not only IN stage 5, but nearly finished it! Granted, it is a very short stage, if not the shortest in the entire game. I still need to keep stone (or "heavy" as my brother calls it) for stage 6, so I'll need to get lucky on the jump game thing. Nobody has posted here for quite some time except for me, so I'm beginning to wonder if all interest has been lost. Oh well. I'll keep working on it since I've got nothing better to do. *edit 2* Finally! Grass Land completed! Go check it out! http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/304874474/Copy%20of%20Kirby%27s%20Dream%20Land%203%20%28U%29.smv My Whispy fight was very fast. The Boboo Mini boss was fast, but looked sort of sloppy. I thought about going back, but I was already half way through the next stage, and I did not feel the urge to go back to stage 4. (I had never gotten a run to last past stage 4 before) There are some lag problems in stage 3, but sometimes they don't occur. I'm very proud of this run! And just so people don't ask, I'll mention this. At one point in stage 6, you can get Coo. Coo's turbo flying is pretty fast. I did not get Coo because I would lose a ton of time with the way I play this stage. There was some sort of graphic error in stage 6 in the room where I get parasol. By using Stone there, you're supposed to go below the screen. for some reason or other, it stayed centered on kirby. You may also find it strange that I took my Parasol out in the last room of stage 6. I did this because I needed to press (Y) to manipulate the ending jump game. The (Y) manipulation works to a much lesser extent when you have an ability.[/url]
Joined: 5/12/2007
Posts: 76
Wow. You're progressing pretty fast! Although on Levels 1 and 2 I saw some improvements, the rest was just amazing! But I have one big question: WHAT THE HECK HAPPENED AFTER WHISPY WOODS?! It showed the final scene (after you collect all hearts/stars and beat King Dedede), then it went normally, but on the World Map, you unlocked World 1 at the same time as World 2. Unless you can find some useful way to use it (like warping to the final boss/level, that'd be awesome), it'll be best to leave it out, since it uses frames.
Former player
Joined: 10/6/2007
Posts: 330
Location: B.C Canada
What?! I replayed that video lots of times and never saw that. Perhaps you got confused at the unlocking part though. when you get all of the Heart-Stars in a world, you blow up a black piece under that world and get to go to the next world. If you didn't get all heart-stars in a world before beating the boss, it just shows the next path being opened. (very badly explained.) Oh, and for improvements in the first two stages, did you mean by using two players? cause this is a one player run. Oh and I'd like to thank floogal for his damage chart. I already knew that parasol was strong, but I will now have to consider Keeping Rick from 4-5 to use through 4-6. I always get needle at the end of that level to use at Ado (which IS the same character as Adeline) So keeping Rick may be worth it for the faster boss fight. Am starting next world today.
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Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
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I liked it. I vaguely remember what my old WIP looked like, but you beat it for sure. Keep it up!
Homepage ☣ Retired
Former player
Joined: 10/6/2007
Posts: 330
Location: B.C Canada
Wow! such praise! Well like I said, I couldn't have done it without you and the others here. You may not know this, but my other hobby is drawing. You may find this comic I drew about me doing the speed run mildly entertaining. Though my speed run comics didn't go over well on a certain other speed run site. :( And no, I'm not a girl. I just use the orange haired girl to represent me since she's my favourite of my characters. I have a feeling other TASers have experienced what I have in this comic. http://pekopon.deviantart.com/art/Grass-Land-complete-69568470