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Posted: 3/17/2007 9:25 PM
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DeFender1031
Joined: 8/29/2006
Posts: 68
balthazar? i thought melchior was reason, balthazar was time... Edit: I just looked it up. you're right. Gaspar is Time and he ends up in the end of time., Melchior is Life and he ends up in 1000, and Belthasar is Reason and he ends up in 2300. Odd that it's not switched to be each one in his own thing's end.
Posted: 3/19/2007 10:08 AM
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Lord_Bahamut
Joined: 9/7/2005
Posts: 143
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
Melchior, guru of life, sells weapons, which are used to end life. Gaspar, guru of time, ends up where there is no time. Balthasar, guru of reason, goes insane completing his final project. It's not something that you'd pick up on the first time around, since we were probably all kids when this game came out. It's interesting to say the least.
This guy are sick.
Posted: 3/25/2007 6:07 AM
(Edited: 3/25/2007 9:02 AM)
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inichi
Player (48)
Joined: 3/11/2007
Posts: 94
Location: Japan
TAS of 2009 SNES TAS of 2009 Glitchy TAS of 2009
I am planning to redo the run, for I found some improvement through the investigation.I assume the new strategy is about 5 minutes faster than the old one under the same conditions. This time, I am going to record my whole run into VHS and send it to SDA.I used a turbo controller in the last run. Since SDA is not allowed to use it, the new record may be almost the same with the old one. But I think publishing my run is more imoprtant than the time.Because I believe the video of my run would be helpful for TAS to make faster video, whether its version will be Japanese or English. I made a new topic at the forum at SDA.If you are intersted in my run, please visit it!
Posted: 3/25/2007 6:46 AM
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Saturn
Player (209)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
OMG, the legend strikes back. :-P This is awesome news!! 5 more minutes improvement on the unimproveable?? I can't wait to see! And thank you very much to finally record it for SDA, there is no better solution than that. Looking very much forward to your progress, and best of luck to you for this run!
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Posted: 3/25/2007 5:01 PM
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hero_of_the_day
Player (88)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
Indeed this is awesome news! I am really looking forward to seeing this, and it would make for a perfect visual walkthrough for whoever decides to make a new TAS. I would personally like to see Saturn make the new TAS. I have combed through his ng+ TAS, and it appears to be frame perfect. He gains frames in areas I would not even begin to think about. Well I think it would be cool if he did it ;)
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Posted: 3/25/2007 5:13 PM
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Saturn
Player (209)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
Hero, this was just because I knew the run will be very short, so I decided to make it 110% frame perfect, since it wasn't much work. Doing the same level on a nearly 4 hours long run would be nearly impossible as long as you want to have it finished within a year. If I would do one, I think I would also use the turbo button all the time to skip the book-big amount of dialogues, and only concentrate on the general moves to be frame perfect. As for me TASing it, I doubt I get the time for it in the near future. And if so, I would definitely wait until inichis SDA run gets uploaded first, and then do careful analyzes of the entire run to plan out the route and actions before starting the actual TAS.
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Posted: 3/26/2007 12:09 AM
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hero_of_the_day
Player (88)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
I just realized that this new strategy will obtain an ending that will not require any additional input from the controller. This means that the actual real time input will end right at the final hit on lavos, which will save so much real time over the ending that I obtained in my run. My run has an ending that required 6 minutes of additional input, because it contained dialog. I am pretty sure that if lavos is killed anytime between azala's defeat and the death of Crono, the ending that will occur is the one known as "what the prophet seeks". There is one exception known as the sideshow ending, but that will not be the case with this strategy. "what the prophet seeks" is one of the coolest endings in the game, and contains an awesome quote at the end. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB9U0d1gEVU
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Posted: 3/27/2007 6:22 PM
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inichi
Player (48)
Joined: 3/11/2007
Posts: 94
Location: Japan
TAS of 2009 SNES TAS of 2009 Glitchy TAS of 2009
I just realized that this new strategy will obtain an ending that will not require any additional input from the controller. This means that the actual real time input will end right at the final hit on lavos, which will save so much real time over the ending that I obtained in my run.
Yes. As you said, any additional input is not required in the ending, "what the prophet seeks". There is Magus's short speech last. But it flows on its own. Ultimagarden, to which I submitted the report about my record, defines the ending as the movie when the ending is over. So, 3:49 was the moment "The End" was shown. If I followed another definition of the ending, my record would be around 3:45.
"what the prophet seeks" is one of the coolest endings in the game, and contains an awesome quote at the end.
I agree. This ending is so cool. I really wanted to use Magus.
Posted: 3/31/2007 5:10 AM
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hero_of_the_day
Player (88)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
I have been following your notes over at the speed demo archive forums, inichi, and your strategies are very well thought out. I am really looking forward to seeing the finished product. With the advent of these new strategies, I have started to compile all the useful memory addresses for the game. It was kind of a pain to search through the game and find all these addresses, but I think it would be worth having them in the end. Since it appears no one else wants to do it, I guess the task of a new run falls on me. I want the new run to be much more precise than my old one, so it may take a while. I still have to wait for inichi's run to be posted on SDA anyway.
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Posted: 3/31/2007 9:09 PM
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hero_of_the_day
Player (88)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
I started my new run today and I have already found something incredibly cool! Sorry to say Saturn, your movie is no longer perfect. I found a way to skip the candy lady on the way to the telepod! With this new revelation, I am going to attempt to skip the dialog with Crono's mom downstairs also.
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Posted: 3/31/2007 9:40 PM
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laughing_gas
Former player
Joined: 10/1/2006
Posts: 1102
Location: boot_camp
Great, there's hardly anyone else more qualified to pick this up.
Borg Collective wrote:
Negotiation is irrelevant. Self-determination is irrelevant. You will be assimilated.
Posted: 3/31/2007 9:57 PM
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creaothceann
He/Him
Editor
Joined: 4/7/2005
Posts: 1874
Location: Germany
*checks the date*
Posted: 3/31/2007 10:12 PM
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hero_of_the_day
Player (88)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
For you reference creaothceann, today is march 31st. I will be posting a wip in a little bit. I am only going to play up until Chrono goes back in time, then I have to wait for inichi to post his movie on the SDA.
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Posted: 3/31/2007 11:33 PM
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Saturn
Player (209)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
Wow, even though there is a chance this might be a aprils joke, I believe you. Looking forward to see a WIP of a by now true TAS-genius no matter in which game. You just manage to come up with crazy stuff over and over again, respect!
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Posted: 4/1/2007 1:02 AM
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creaothceann
He/Him
Editor
Joined: 4/7/2005
Posts: 1874
Location: Germany
hero of the day wrote:
I will be posting a wip in a little bit.
Yay! :)
Posted: 4/1/2007 4:11 AM
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hero_of_the_day
Player (88)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
Saturn wrote:
Wow, even though there is a chance this might be a aprils joke, I believe you. Looking forward to see a WIP of a by now true TAS-genius no matter in which game. You just manage to come up with crazy stuff over and over again, respect!
Thanks Saturn, much respect to you as well. It seems like you and I enjoy similar games ;) And here you guys go, a present for April fools day. The start of my new run
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Posted: 4/1/2007 4:19 AM
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moozooh
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5770
Location: Away
Ha! You've managed to save almost 21.5 seconds already, nice.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 4/1/2007 4:23 AM
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hero_of_the_day
Player (88)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
thanks moozooh. It isn't quite that much time saved actually, because I haven't entered the pause screen menu yet. In the old run, I entered it immediately when I gain control of Crono in his room. I am trying hard to make this run as frame perfect as possible, no more turbo buttons for me. Luckily with memory watch, the dialogue button presses are predictable by exactly 1 frame. Saturn, I got a question for you. Do you know if the battle message speed should be increased? After some testing it seems that it doesn't make a difference in the overall length of the battle. Confirmation would be appreciated.
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Posted: 4/1/2007 11:13 AM
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creaothceann
He/Him
Editor
Joined: 4/7/2005
Posts: 1874
Location: Germany
Wow - incredible that the script can be tricked like that!
Posted: 4/1/2007 12:56 PM
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Saturn
Player (209)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
Holy Shit! This is just crazy! I actually tried to pass this dialogue as well, but seems you are just smarter to find such, even slightest holes in the game to fool it! :-P Also good decision to not use turbo buttons even thought it will be much additional work. But the TAS quality will definitely be worth this effort in the end anyway.
hero of the day wrote:
Saturn, I got a question for you. Do you know if the battle message speed should be increased? After some testing it seems that it doesn't make a difference in the overall length of the battle. Confirmation would be appreciated.
Yes, it's only the message speed, and those not affecting the actual battle speed at all. It's even better to keep it the way it is, so that the watcher has more time to read what attacks you casted during the battles. :-)
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Posted: 4/1/2007 9:27 PM
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inichi
Player (48)
Joined: 3/11/2007
Posts: 94
Location: Japan
TAS of 2009 SNES TAS of 2009 Glitchy TAS of 2009
Amazing! Even though this video is short, it reminds me of the excitement I felt when I watched your last run first. I have thought nobody but you could push Chrono Trigger run to the limit. So I'm glad to know you determined to start the new run. I'm really looking forward to see your run. So I will do my best to finish my run for you.
Posted: 4/1/2007 9:41 PM
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hero_of_the_day
Player (88)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
Thank you inichi. It is because of your awesome strategies that I am motivated to start the new run. Take your time with your run. It will be a while before I really start working on my new run anyway.
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Posted: 4/1/2007 9:44 PM
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Bisqwit
Editor, Active player (296)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
Awesome! I hope this glitch can be utilized in other locations too. Why exactly does it let Crono pass the event trigger?
Posted: 4/1/2007 9:52 PM
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hero_of_the_day
Player (88)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
Bisqwit, there seems to be a certain variable that changes every single frame. This variable goes through stages of (I think 9) before starting over. During each change in the variable, it allows Crono to walk past an event trigger by a certain amount before being compelled to walk back or stop. There is a point within this 9 frame variation that allows Crono to travel the maximum distance possible. Ex: Look at the conversation with his mother. Sometimes you get stuck right in front of her and other times you can walk almost right beside her before being stopped. With the candy lady, Crono doesn't actually pass the event trigger, but he gets close enough to the "exit" trigger on the top of the screen. The new "exit" trigger overrides the candy lady trigger. I hope that made sense. If not, I can explain it again.
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Posted: 4/1/2007 10:00 PM
Quote
Bisqwit
Editor, Active player (296)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
It made sense, yes. Is this 0-9 going variable, by any chance, $6D ? (i.e. $7E016D) I thought it iterates through every object at every frame instead of one object per frame. I have analyzed the event code quite a bit, when I wrote a compiler+decompiler for it in Chronotools, but I never knew this. EDIT: This is the code of this event. Doubt it's useful for anyone, but it's here. 
[OBJECT:E][FUNCTION:0] ;"hold your horses" event object
        [ObjectLoadNPC:70]
        [ObjectAnimation:00 [mode:1]]
        [ObjectLetB:{ObjectMoveProps}:00]
        [ObjectLetB:{ObjectSpeed}:80]
        [ObjectLetB:{ObjectDrawingMode}:00]
        [Return]   
        [LoopBegin]
          [IfB:7E0055 & 08]      ; probably some bitmask of events?
            [IfB:7F0218 < 04]     ; probably Y coordinate for Crono?
              [IfB:7F0216 > 17]    ; probably X coordinate for Crono?
                [IfB:7F0216 < 1A]
                  [LetB:{ExploreMode}:00]
                  [ObjectLetB:{ObjectDrawingMode}:01 [for:09]]   
                  [Execute:6 [priority:3] [for:03] [wait:return]] ; invokes function 6 for Marle
                  [Execute:7 [priority:3] [for:01] [wait:return]] ; invokes function 7 for Crono
                  [Execute:8 [priority:4] [for:01] [wait:return]] ; etc
                  [Execute:7 [priority:4] [for:03] [wait:return]]
                  [Execute:8 [priority:5] [for:03] [wait:return]]
                  [LetB:7F023C:1]
                  [LetB:{ExploreMode}:01]
                [EndIf]
              [EndIf]
            [EndIf]
            [IfB:7F023C > 00]  
              [IfB:7F0218 > 06] ;tests whether Crono moves down
                [Execute:4 [priority:3] [for:0D] [wait:return]]  ;activates function 4 for the monitor object
              [EndIf]
              [IncB:7F023E] ;increase counter
              [IfB:7F023E > 60] ; if counted sufficiently long enough
                [LetB:{ExploreMode}:00]
                [AndB:7E0055:F7] ;disable this event, prevent it from occurring again
                [DialogDisplay:$GhM4 [pos:bottom]] ;"Hi, I'd like these."
                [Execute:A [priority:0] [for:03] [wait:return]]
                [ObjectLetB:{ObjectDrawingMode}:00 [for:09]]
                [DialogDisplay:$GhM6 [pos:auto]] ; "Thanks for waiting."
                [PartySetFollow]
              [EndIf]
            [EndIf]
          [EndIf]
        [Loop]
        [Yield [forever]]

[OBJECT:3][FUNCTION:6] ;Marle's functions related to this event
        [ObjectSetFacing:01]   
        [DialogDisplay:$GhLy [pos:auto]] ;"Hold your horses"
[OBJECT:3][FUNCTION:7]
        [ObjectLetB:7E1C81:01]
        [ObjectAnimationReset]
        [ObjectLetB:{ObjectSpeed}:40]
        [ObjectMoveTowards:19:07 [facing:change]]
        [Return]
[OBJECT:3][FUNCTION:8]
        [ObjectLetB:7E1C81:01]
        [ObjectLetB:{ObjectMoveProps}:00]
        [ObjectLetB:{ObjectSpeed}:40]
        [ObjectMoveTowards:1B:06 [facing:change]]
        [ObjectSetFacing:00]
        [ObjectAnimation:01 [mode:1]]
        [Return]
[OBJECT:3][FUNCTION:A:B:C:D:E:F]
        [ObjectAnimation:1A:08 [mode:2]]  
        [Return]

[OBJECT:1][FUNCTION:7] ;Crono's functions related to this event
        [ObjectLetB:7E1C81:01]
        [ObjectAnimationReset]
        [ObjectLetB:{ObjectSpeed}:40]
        [ObjectMoveTowards:1A:07 [facing:change]]
        [Return]
[OBJECT:1][FUNCTION:8]
        [ObjectHide:33]
        [ObjectLetB:7E1C81:01]
        [ObjectLetB:{ObjectSpeed}:40]
        [ObjectMoveTowards:1C:06 [facing:change]]
        [ObjectSetFacing:00]
        [Return]

[OBJECT:D][FUNCTION:4:5:6:7:8:9:A:B:C:D:E:F]  ;some kind of monitor object for the event
        [LetB:{ExploreMode}:00]
        [Execute:9 [priority:3] [for:01] [wait:call]]   ;execute functions for Marle and Crono
        [Execute:9 [priority:3] [for:03] [wait:return]]  ; changes their poses
        [ObjectLetB:{Result}:7F023C]
        [IfObjectB:{Result} == 01]
          [DialogDisplay:$GhM0 [pos:auto]] ;"wait some more"
          [LetB:7F023C:02] ;increase counter
        [ElseIfObjectB:{Result} == 02]
          [DialogDisplay:$GhM2 [pos:auto]] ;"don't drag me like some kidnapper"
          [OrB:7E0055:10]    ;remember the action for the jury's opinions later
          [OrB:7E0055:20]  
        [EndIf]
        [Execute:8 [priority:4] [for:01] [wait:return]] ;restore Crono and Marle
        [Execute:8 [priority:4] [for:03] [wait:return]] ;to the previous state
        [LetB:{ExploreMode}:01]
        [Return]
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