Joined: 8/8/2005
Posts: 296
Location: NSW, Australia
This is one of my favourite games from the past (bar the Sonic series which are well and truly done) and I used to enjoy time attacking it (I recall completing the game 100% in two hours) so, as well as a legitimate speedrun that I hope to do soon, I thought I'd give TASing a try.
WIP Progress: First world re-re-done.
I'd particularly like to get advice from people who've done TASes before so I know what things I should improve.
OK, let's see...
It will help if you can play mainly with frame advance, for maximum precision (read everything here if you haven't already). And, basically, don't assume you know anything about how the game works or what's fastest until you've tested multiple ways of doing it and compared frame counts to see what's really the faster thing to do. Look for optimizations in even the smallest and simplest actions, they'll add up, and try to do things that seem impossible if they would also save a lot of time (shortcuts especially) until you're convinced they absolutely can't be done even with perfect input.
For some examples/help specific to this game: I think you move slightly faster when in the air (or maybe cartwheeling) than on the ground, which means you want to maximize the amount of time you spend jumping/cartwheeling because every frame that you're running on the ground wastes a little time. Also, the most obvious mistake I see is that you climb up the ropes instead of jumping up them. I didn't time it but jumping looks much faster to me. And I think hitting enemies from the side speeds you up a lot, making it faster to cartwheel through them than jump over them. (And landing on top of them slows you down.)
Oh, and you don't need to bother with supplying AVI's unless you really want to or someone requests it.
Joined: 8/8/2005
Posts: 296
Location: NSW, Australia
Odd, VLC should play that. :/
Anyway, the VBM is now updated to include the second world. And I must say, nitsuja, you were spot on. Watch the difference between my earlier and later efforts, it's phenomenal at times.
Third world might take a bit longer to happen, because:
a) it's probably harder, though certainly not longer
b) I've got a crapload of work I've gotta do in the next few weeks. But I'll get as much done as I can.
You should probably start over rather than going on to world 3 already, since your first world is still as unoptimized as it was before and even the second world has some mistakes. The biggest mistakes I see remaining even to the end of your world 2 are (1) not always jumping out of a hair attack before it slows you down, (2) not constantly jumping everywhere instead of running on the ground, and (3) not jumping or whatever other action on the earliest possible frame that it would work. Also, it seems like there should be some way to eliminate the long delay Dixie has when throwing something at the bosses, such as being partly inside the boss when you're throwing it, or maybe switching to Diddy.
EDIT: VBA is doing something wrong with the frame counting for this game... That means the game time in the emulator will be shorter than it should be, by a second or two per level.
Joined: 8/8/2005
Posts: 296
Location: NSW, Australia
Summary: Did the first world again, saved about 20 seconds, blah blah blah.
Also I knew there was a problem with the frame counts, whenever the screen blacks out, it goes one frame and then stops for a while, then plays another six blank frames before going to the next scene. If you turn the frame counter on and play in real time even, its pretty obvious where the stops are.
It's looking much better. I noticed a pretty big mistake in the water levels, though: When swimming upwards, you don't hold Up, which would greatly increase your speed. Same for when you're flying upwards as Squawks.
Joined: 8/8/2005
Posts: 296
Location: NSW, Australia
Bah. So I got up to the third world, and was then reliably informed that there's a warp barrel in each of the five levels in the first world. That was followed by me deleting the third world on my previous file.
I think I'm going to abandon the project, and focus on my realtime speedruns.
Nice TAS so far. There are only two things that I have to rant about:
1. Why did you do it on v20? The SGB border is glitched on v20.
2. When fighting Krow, you can jump on the eggs that Krow throws to stop them, like in DKC2. I'm pretty sure this is faster than letting the eggs bounce and stop on their own.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Watched through it, and it looks very improvable. You didn't utilize any up to date DK tricks, and lava lagoon looked it was played in real time.
I think there's a trick that allows Dixie infinite rolls, where at the end of a roll you jump, and activate the helicopter as fast as possible, then cancel the helicopter, land, and roll again; this can be seen in the DKL3 rejected TAS, and I think it works in this game too.
You didn't roll enough, didn't try to get max speed when rounding corners. I don't think the playing quality is publish quality.
Joined: 3/16/2009
Posts: 42
Location: In the USA, nowhere else.
I've made my own TAS for this game(which wasn't supposed to be submission quality). It was around 43-44 minutes input timing, and was 41:XX in-game timing.
You didn't roll enough, didn't try to get max speed when rounding corners. I don't think the playing quality is publish quality.
Rolling is SLOWER in this game than jumping. Because of this, you need to avoid rolling.
I don't know if this is faster or not, but in Web Woods, I used a bonus barrel near the end, and instantly suicided to avoid a long pit.
If you're really curious, here it is.
Note: This requires SGB settings on.
Joined: 3/16/2009
Posts: 42
Location: In the USA, nowhere else.
Well, I've decided to start a 102% TAS.
I've already gone through the first world, here's a Youtube Video. (outdated)
VBM. (outdated)
I am very sastisfied so far, and thanks to my sloppy TAS test, I've found a few tricks. I'm too lazy to explain them right now, but maybe later.
Current Progress: See second page.
Joined: 8/8/2005
Posts: 296
Location: NSW, Australia
Now this is awesome news.
I'll actually watch the video to see if I can offer anything by way of improvements, but the first world is simple enough that there shouldn't be anything glaring.
EDIT: OK, a few questions.
* The obvious one: Why did you enter Kong Kollege and Funky's Flights? You don't need it for 102% if that was your rationale.
* I'm reasonably sure gliding is slower unless you need it to bounce on the goal spring - did you test whether that was faster than running or jumping?
* You jumped on an enemy in (I think) Pirate Panic which is the slowest form of movement of all, short of, well, standing still. That might have been one instance where you could have glided earlier to fall in front of the enemy, spin into it and then jump.
Joined: 3/16/2009
Posts: 42
Location: In the USA, nowhere else.
mike89 wrote:
Now this is awesome news.
I'll actually watch the video to see if I can offer anything by way of improvements, but the first world is simple enough that there shouldn't be anything glaring.
EDIT: OK, a few questions.
* The obvious one: Why did you enter Kong Kollege and Funky's Flights? You don't need it for 102% if that was your rationale.
* I'm reasonably sure gliding is slower unless you need it to bounce on the goal spring - did you test whether that was faster than running or jumping?
* You jumped on an enemy in (I think) Pirate Panic which is the slowest form of movement of all, short of, well, standing still. That might have been one instance where you could have glided earlier to fall in front of the enemy, spin into it and then jump.
1. Well, in DKC2, it did count. EDIT: Ok, I fixed it. I don't go to either anymore.
2. Well, I'm trying to get speed from jumping.
3. I realize bouncing on enemies is slow, but I tried EVERYTHING to avoid the enemy. I'm sure it's impossible.
Joined: 3/16/2009
Posts: 42
Location: In the USA, nowhere else.
HOLY. CRUD.
I just went through a lot of frustration through Lava Lagoon, and now I find that in Kannon's Klaim, I could've taken a shorter way. This TAS is really getting on my nerves, and I don't want to hex edit, because I don't want to get a stupid 7z file converter. I am really close to postponing this run. Grr...
EDIT: Nope, I took the courage to redo it. Here's the new VBM.
Joined: 3/16/2009
Posts: 42
Location: In the USA, nowhere else.
EEssentia wrote:
Don't give up!
You can do this!
I want to see your finished run! :D
:)
Thanks a lot! That helps. :) (not sarcasm)
I guess it's time to begin the third world. I'll start putting my level comments.
Pirate Panic- Easy as heck. By the way, the enemy I jumped on is unavoidable.
Mainbrace Mayhem- Still easy.
Lockjaw's Locker- Backtracking takes too long, so I use level exit instead.
Gangplank Galley- Easy.
Topsail Trouble- Improved my previous time by bouncing on the Click Clack faster.
Krow's Nest- ABSOLUTE TORTURE to perfect.
Hot Head Hop- This level is easy to stay in the air on. Also, the bonus barrel is out of Kong's reach, if you wondered why I backtracked.
Kannon's Klaim- The barrel where I landed on the bottom half in was because the game wouldn't let me short-cut unless I did.
Lava Lagoon- Argh, I HATE this level. I re-did it about three times, and man, it was PAINFUL.
Red-Hot Ride-I had to float down slowly for the DK coin, which bugged me. Also, Rambi is slower. WAY slower.
Squawk's Shaft- I love how the bonus stage went.
Barrel Bayou- Isn't it fun abusing the controllable barrels by shooting diagonally?
Glimmer's Galleon- Not a dark level! I was afraid at first, but then I was RELIEVED to find out I was forced to hit some anyway. By the way, this level is even worse than Lava Lagoon.
Krockhead Klamber- Going under the reeds was a nice trick
Rattle Battle- If you are going for any%, you don't even need Rattly. anyway, I found a nice short-cut to the bonus.
Slime Climb- This level is fun to TAS, because it always looks great in the end.
Kleaver's Kiln- Such an easy boss compared to the one in DKC2.
Hornet Hole- I love jumping up the honey fast like that.
Target Terror- I jumped up ramps to avoid slowing down.
Bramble Blast- Don't thank me for finding all of the short-cuts I took, thank Blaziken257 on YouTube.
Rickety Race- Uh, comicalflop, it's Rickety RACE, not Rickety RAGE. Anyhow, straightfoward.
Bramble Scramble- I discovered a glitch where if you touch a corner of the brambles, you're still alive for one frame, so this is how I seem to roll out of nowhere.
Mudhole Marsh- Not much to say.
Rambi Rumble- For some reason, I love pronouncing this "Ramb-eye Rum-Bul", yet I refer to Rambi alone as "Ram-bee".
King Zing Sting- I wish I could have killed all of the zingers King Zing spawned, but I lost control of Squawks before I could.
Ghostly Grove- Still not much to say. Also, why is the DK coin so painfully obvious?
Krazy Koaster- This level replaces Haunted Hall in DKC2, I guess since Rare couldn't fit Kackle in a tiny GB cart. This is kinda sad because it gives away the haunted theme even though it's in a haunted world. Even so, there's still a bonus with more stars than required.
Gusty Glade- You are barely affected by wind on the ground, which is why I run sometimes.
Parrot Chute Panic- I was afraid of this level the moment I began this TAS. If you pass the camera from below, you DIE (I don't know why). It gets even worse when you hit unavoidable lag, because the camera scrolls even slower. I sure saved a lot of agony when I hit an unavoidable Squawks barrel.
Web Woods- You finally get to see me show what Squitter is really made of.
Kreepy Krow- I performed a glitch where Krow stays under. When the time comes, it's a lot faster for him to fly up instead of down.
Arctic Abyss- Not a lot to say about this one.
Windy Well- Character sacrificing rocks! Considering Diddy is totally USELESS in this game when compared to Dixie.
Dungeon Danger- This level replaces Castle Crush, and THANK GOODNESS for that. If you've been that far in DKC2, you know how painfull it is to sit through that level. It's so BORING. Thankfully, we don't have to worry about it!
Clapper's Cavern- Good thing I discoverd ducking repeatedly was faster when I began.
