Fact: without testing all possible input combinations, you cannot be certain you got a perfect time.
That is not true. Some input combinations can't affect anything at all.
But you can't be sure which is which unless you disassemble both the ROM and the Emulator and work through it all to make sure of the behavior on each press.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
I just don't understand all the cloak and dagger going on with these runs. I loved watching the WIPs for FF6, how the two runners were at points within frames of each other, and comparing the two. I believe a side-by-side video was even made of the two runs because they were so close. Everyone seemed to love it.
And then this, well, I'm not sure who's going to come out ahead, but frankly its a lot less fun to follow because of the "perfection" hanging in the air like a dense fog...
However I do have to say, for the theories and trials that have been posted, they sound pretty cool. I can't wait to see any of these runs!
Samus taught us that a girl doesn't need brains to be successful. Brains are giant, evil, and vulnerable to missiles.
I wouldn't bet on that. Knowledge is a very important factor here. Although I will sound bad again, I now passed every situation in such a run, and I know all the fastest possible strategies in each room. Sure there might be strats you use which I won't, but then there will most likely be slower. Too bad I can't show you my any% WIP so that you can see yourself what fast strategies are, and learn a ton of new ones as well, but it's just not finished, and a unfinished run won't be submitted, obviously.
Why can't you just post a WIP so everyone can see what strategies you're using? It's not a submission if you don't submit it, and everybody can benefit from it. It's not spoiling anything, because not everybody watches WIPs; but those who do and are interested in the game at hand would greatly appreciate it.
Joined: 6/11/2006
Posts: 818
Location: Arboga, Sweden
Because then someone else might use something in their TASes, making Saturn get less pride from it, since not everybody reads the submission texts for credits.
That's my bet.
Warp wrote:
omg lol this is so fake!!!1 the nes cant produce music like this!
And then this, well, I'm not sure who's going to come out ahead, but frankly its a lot less fun to follow because of the "perfection" hanging in the air like a dense fog...
Regardless of the results of the actual TASing, I can tell you for sure who in this discussion is NOT coming out ahead.
Joined: 3/25/2006
Posts: 850
Location: stuck in Pandora's box HELLPP!!!
upthorn wrote:
P.JBoy wrote:
upthorn wrote:
Fact: without testing all possible input combinations, you cannot be certain you got a perfect time.
That is not true. Some input combinations can't affect anything at all.
But you can't be sure which is which unless you disassemble both the ROM and the Emulator and work through it all to make sure of the behavior on each press.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
Saturn:
The only problem with your lame claims of perfection is that we will never see them. You started working on your run almost 2 years ago, and guess what.... you have to start over anyway! Thanks to a discovery by moozooh, and a discovery by myself. At this point in time it is just pointless for you to make a run. Cpadolf is using the exact same route as you, so almost all of your tricks have been spoiled anyway. You hope to beat his time by what... 10 seconds? The shock factor is gone at this point, and no one gives a shit about the escape timers other than hardcore in-game oriented speed runnners. The casual viewer here does not care.
And I am 100% certain there are some new discoveries I have made that you do not know about.
Because then someone else might use something in their TASes, making Saturn get less pride from it, since not everybody reads the submission texts for credits.
That's my bet.
I'm pretty sure pride runs are discouraged here. And if people don't read submission texts then they probably don't care who submitted it either. There really is no reason why the 3 or 4 active runners don't share wips. At least that way the general public will still be "surprised" and everyone benefits from a run that has had many people check the quality of every part. It's not like anyone here is a credit stealer.
Fact: without testing all possible input combinations, you cannot be certain you got a perfect time.
That is not true. Some input combinations can't affect anything at all.
But you can't be sure which is which unless you disassemble both the ROM and the Emulator and work through it all to make sure of the behavior on each press.
Or ask Kejardon
moozooh wrote:
Kejardon wrote:
I've been wrong before as well
Sorry, not 100% reliable. :)
I can be certain about a few particulars, including frames during which input won't matter, or certain inputs that don't do anything. So you don't need to test *all* possible input combinations. Only about sqrt(all possible input combinations).
Which is still an obscenely huge number that would take a quantum computer to complete in any reasonable amount of time.
kwinse wrote:
Kejardon wrote:
Kriole wrote:
Samus is damaged by a Rinka in the opening.
That's a script action; no damage.
... it just dawned on me I know way too much about SM.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
yeah, not much time, but enough to make Saturn's run imperfect. Not to mention the catnap jump which he forgot to use also. On top of that I also use a strategy that was 10 frames faster than his in the 2nd red brinstar shaft. Also, I found a couple new techniques which can save ~20 frames over moozooh's wip before even getting to the red brinstar shaft. Of course moozooh's torizo skip is much more of a time saver, but all these little things do add up over time. In case you were wondering 90% of my new techniques involve the CWJ. A total of 24 CWJs will be in my new run, each saving on average 15 frames.
Tonski will be glad to hear this I expect, I am to but he especially loves this trick. While I can at least imagine where a few of those would be put in I certainly was not in any way expecting this many.
Fact: it is impossible that you would have tested all possible input combinations for the given number of frames, as doing so would take millions of years, even for a robot.
Fact: With the needed knowledge you can see immediately which combinations are promising and which are definitely slower, even without testing them. I only need to test very few strategies per room that are all similarly fast, to find out which one is still the slightly fastest in the end. It's hard to believe, but it's really like that for me.
Maximus wrote:
Why can't you just post a WIP so everyone can see what strategies you're using?
Because it would be a huge spoiler of my future run. I definitely think it will be for the better to keep it private until submission.
hero of the day wrote:
The only problem with your lame claims of perfection is that we will never see them. You started working on your run almost 2 years ago, and guess what.... you have to start over anyway! Thanks to a discovery by moozooh, and a discovery by myself. At this point in time it is just pointless for you to make a run. Cpadolf is using the exact same route as you, so almost all of your tricks have been spoiled anyway. You hope to beat his time by what... 10 seconds? The shock factor is gone at this point, and no one gives a shit about the escape timers other than hardcore in-game oriented speed runnners. The casual viewer here does not care.
1. You will see everything I claimed. It will just take some time to get the runs done.
2. Using the same route doesn't automatically mean that all my tricks get spoiled.
3. I think most people want to see how to get a fastest possible escape timer, not just hardcore speedrunners.
hero of the day wrote:
And I am 100% certain there are some new discoveries I have made that you do not know about.
If you wish to be proven wrong, we could make a blind test by comparing our frame times in the specific area without mentioning the strategies at all. But once again, it would be a risk for me to spoil something even by that, so I'm not sure if it would be worth.
Cpadolf wrote:
And what was your discovery, The red brinstar shaft shot?
Yes. The only true reason I cancelled my WIP (this was before Torizo skip, which of course made the cancel even more obvious). I didn't even restart it since then, as I worked on the Redesign TAS from that time on. This shot discovery made me test things in a even wider range than I did before, so it's now very unlikely I would miss such a similar thing again. I have to thank hero for that.
hero of the day wrote:
On top of that I also use a strategy that was 10 frames faster than his in the 2nd red brinstar shaft.
I realized that myself when I posted that demo of the 2nd shaft pass. The PB placement was too early. Your currently published run skips the important Super Missile refill though. But you probably know that even with the refill it's still possible to save this 10 frames there.
hero of the day wrote:
In case you were wondering 90% of my new techniques involve the CWJ.
Hah, this was so obvious! ;-)
Though respect about planning all of them ahead that exactly.
Fact: it is impossible that you would have tested all possible input combinations for the given number of frames, as doing so would take millions of years, even for a robot.
Fact: With the needed knowledge you can see immediately which combinations are promising and which are definitely slower, even without testing them. I only need to test very few strategies per room that are all similarly fast, to find out which one is still the slightly fastest in the end. It's hard to believe, but it's really like that for me.
So you're certain that none of the possible input combinations that you didn't test could have performed any helpful glitch or trick that you don't know about yet?
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
Because then someone else might use something in their TASes, making Saturn get less pride from it, since not everybody reads the submission texts for credits.
That's my bet.
I'm pretty sure pride runs are discouraged here. And if people don't read submission texts then they probably don't care who submitted it either. There really is no reason why the 3 or 4 active runners don't share wips. At least that way the general public will still be "surprised" and everyone benefits from a run that has had many people check the quality of every part. It's not like anyone here is a credit stealer.
Plus, it's a video game, not a lab report.
"This, is Super Metroid!!!"
This shot discovery made me test things in a even wider range than I did before, so it's now very unlikely I would miss such a similar thing again.
Wide. But not wide enough. You aren't God. You may even discover super great things, but once it's published, people will find improvements. Very unlikely? 100% likely. I think that's where people are getting confused by your speeches.
Don't really care about this discussion anymore since it's getting too involved for my uninvolvedness, but just thought I'd point that out. GOGOGO
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
The best TAS discoveries are made by thinking outside the box and disregarding the word "impossible". I think you'll find a vast majority of the movies on this site derive from this creative way of thinking.
You know if Saturn was just a little more secretive about his work I'd be like 95% convinced he was just a very elaborate and pretty awesome troll. Most of his comments are just unreal to me.
Tonski will be glad to hear this I expect, I am to but he especially loves this trick. While I can at least imagine where a few of those would be put in I certainly was not in any way expecting this many.
Tell me about it! Hero is now officially making the run that makes my spirit lift up to the heaven, CWJ is the best trick in this game in my opinion. :) This mostly puts hero's run in the top of my waiting list, I can't wait!
Though Saturn's RBO comes right second. Come to think about it, if every minute that's used in arguing about stuff that don't matter all that much (like Saturn saying some stuff people don't believe) would be used in TASing, we'd have almost all the runs done in no time. And Saturn would most likely have his run already done thus would prove everyone his new timesavers.
<Deign> .dice 1d1999191023443691
<BisqBot> Deign rolls a blackhole and destroys the planet.
The only thing of real interest for me is to know how much time you spent getting to draygon where your run stopped (well at least the extremely serious one)
