Labeling something as impossible can also save people from wasting time trying to do something that is guaranteed to fail, and give people more time try other things that actually might succeed.
Yeah, but many other things involving the Torizo skip have been thought to be impossible before, and look how easily it's used in TASes these days. We should speak more in a way like "it's impossible with the information/tricks currently known" instead of "it's 100% impossible", just to share my thoughts.
I find it more believable though when Kejardon says something really IS impossible, since you rarely hear it from him. :)
<Deign> .dice 1d1999191023443691
<BisqBot> Deign rolls a blackhole and destroys the planet.
Personally I feel Saturn is throwing around superlatives like perfect and impossible without any feeling for how strong the words are. I'm sure he personally believes that when he's using the words that they're applicable, but it's pretty short-sighted of him to do so. Things like the Maridia gate opening from the wrong side should be labelled as "very unlikely" rather than impossible until it's been confirmed that there is zero chance of doing it, likewise nobody should call their runs perfect until it's been proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is no way to improve it. (it's even less appropriate when the run in question isn't even finished.)
Personally I feel Saturn is throwing around superlatives like perfect and impossible without any feeling for how strong the words are. I'm sure he personally believes that when he's using the words that they're applicable, but it's pretty short-sighted of him to do so. Things like the Maridia gate opening from the wrong side should be labelled as "very unlikely" rather than impossible until it's been confirmed that there is zero chance of doing it, likewise nobody should call their runs perfect until it's been proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is no way to improve it. (it's even less appropriate when the run in question isn't even finished.)
Thats exactly my point, to pick strong words in order to make the facts about the Maridia Gate clear. It's already confirmed, tested and calculated that a far horizontal Super Missile shot won't ever have a chance to pass 2 solid blocks in this conditions. And as Kriole and Kej already noticed, I just wanted to save people from wasting their time on something that is technically not possible anyway.
I don't follow this game very well, but would it be the same way you were trying to save people from wasting time with the torizo skip in ntsc, or am I completely missing the point here?
I don't follow this game very well, but would it be the same way you were trying to save people from wasting time with the torizo skip in ntsc, or am I completely missing the point here?
Not really, to make this work you would need to in some way make samus move more then twice her maximum running speed in virtuallu no room at all, otherwise there seems to be no possible way of doing it. Thus it would make more sense to either try to realise things that are theoretically possible with todays knowledge or randomly press buttons to find new glitches.
Actually the case with the torizo skip could be compared to this since at the point where Saturn firmly stated it to be impossible it was impossible with current knowledge. (I guess that the trick lacking at the point was to turn around at the door, right?) But still there is a difference, the torizo skip was really close to being possible and the trick lacking was already used though in another way, to do the maridia gate backwards trick you would need a uterly ilogical gamebreaking glitch.
Still Saturn do tend to use the word impossible a little to often, like with his chrono trigger TAS.
Turnaround was well-known by that point. The key trick was combination of both proper timing and positioning.
Also, I would appreciate it if you guys didn't discuss Saturn's word choice on every second page as if it was something new and surprising. This thread has far more offtopic than it should.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
I pretty much agree with that gate being impossible to open with currently known methods, and I'm not even a TASer (meaning I believe a lot more crazy shit).
I didn't agree that it was impossible to gather a shinespark in an even shorter distance than when JXQ's movie was released (Saturn's teaser provided proof), nor did I really even agree that skipping torizo was impossible (as everyone knows, this was disproven). I didn't agree that many things were as fast as possible during the earlier runs where people didn't implement even the easiest-knowledgable tricks (where people didn't get hit by enemies for boosts nor fell from cliffs at highest possible momentum). Even in this recent run for Metroid Prime 3 this player was going through every single door rolled up as a ball, waiting right next to the door for it to open, when it's clearly visible that you can be a ball away from the door, see the door opening, and then start moving in order to gain the most momentum possible (the door animation starts but you can't enter until the animation is complete).
So yeah, a lot of cases appear where something is possible to go even faster, but that shouldn't blind people from the truly impossible. Besides, usually the impossible is just said to be so because we aren't machines, but machines eventually do strange things for us like memory reading.
Yeah, you can't compare the Torizo skip (and definitely not a entire run of Chronp Trigger) with this single gate. As Cpadolf said, it was really close there, and the only key that I forgot to consider was the turn around "before" collecting the Bombs, with immediate landing (which I thought is not possible while in spinjump mode, but with a very high jump before, it indeed works). Regarding this gate, you don't even have to try opening it with a far horizontal shot, because it's like running against a wall with the head. We can believe what we want, but a fact stays a fact.
Comicalflop wrote:
From what I remember, Hero was really close from using another missile to shake the screen, and was 1 pixel away from getting it to work.
Thats what I mean, people seem to ignore the facts. It was already clearly stated that the shaking screen from a Super Missile has 0 influence to the gate. It's a pure visual effect without any changes in the actual physics anywhere. Hero was indeed a pixel below the switch to open the gate, but thats the limit to skip the first solid block in order to pass the gate. If you fire it a pixel higher, the Super would hit the 2nd solid block, which will prevent one to ever hit the switch due to the 2-solid-block rule you can't pass.
I have the impression that people who still argue about this gate, just aren't able to imagine the technical facts about it. It gets pretty clear once you realize them (which is admittedly not easy if you don't have much knowledge about the game's engine).
I would like to see the gate opened since that would mean a glitch to make samus move 24px/frame in no distance had been found. That ought to be usefull in some way...
Try with spring ball for fun:
Take max speed from sidehopper room and mockball into the tunnel, then spring ball as soon as possible when you come out of the tunnel, unmoprh in air and shoot a super. Voilá!
You lose all momentum when you unmorph right? :P
<Deign> .dice 1d1999191023443691
<BisqBot> Deign rolls a blackhole and destroys the planet.
I'm sorry I can't watch that right now because I don't have my laptop, and I can't download anything on this computer.
But I think you get the idea, if you don't: Kill all the sidehoppers from the room left to you and open the door, gather all the speed you can get and in the next room jump at the latest moment possible and mockball into the tunnel leading to that gate, then when you're on the other side spring ball and unmorph in air, immediately shoot a super.
The reason I think this would never work is not enough speed and momentum loss while unmorphing huh? Just a random idea I thought to share.
<Deign> .dice 1d1999191023443691
<BisqBot> Deign rolls a blackhole and destroys the planet.
Yeah, I did just what you said. The rules of projectile acceleration are somewhat odd, though, but in this particular case they aren't on our side. However, that wouldn't have helped mainly because Samus is physically unable to attain a speed as high as 24 ppf without zipping, but zipping wouldn't have accelerated the missile, either.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
I've gotten Samus up to 28 ppf in Insanity, but I don't know of any way to get her faster than 15 ppf (max super jump speed) in the original, and never past 10 ppf (max running speed) and still able to fire. Arm pumping doesn't even count as an additional 1 ppf for the purposes of firing projectiles.
24 ppf was a very rough guess, I'd have to look at the room and do some calculations to get an exact speed. But it's so far away from any speeds I've seen in the original game that it doesn't matter too much what it is, it's still too big.
kwinse wrote:
Kejardon wrote:
Kriole wrote:
Samus is damaged by a Rinka in the opening.
That's a script action; no damage.
... it just dawned on me I know way too much about SM.
I didn't remove the speed cap, I made a new physics engine.
The new physics engine has no theoretical speed cap, only practical speed caps because it's just too difficult to get excessively high speeds. Unless you're using slowdown and savestates.
It won't be nearly as abusable as you're thinking, though. For one, you don't even know what the physics engine is for yet.
kwinse wrote:
Kejardon wrote:
Kriole wrote:
Samus is damaged by a Rinka in the opening.
That's a script action; no damage.
... it just dawned on me I know way too much about SM.
By practical speed caps, do you mean hardcoded constants or just specifics of game environment (i.e. not having enough room anywhere for attaining a certain value)? If the latter, awesome.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
