dont believe your eyes
its just a video and i forgot the credits which would have looked like this
"was it real?" "thanks for watching"
still cool someone noticed :P
dont believe your eyes
its just a video and i forgot the credits which would have looked like this
"was it real?" "thanks for watching"
still cool someone noticed :P
That movie was superduper wtf dood awesome. You win.
Kriole, you said you used all the Saturn's strats in your RBO because they are the fastest known?
But I thought JXQ proved walljumping method to the Etecoon PBs a frame faster than that shinespark, and moozooh even improved it saying something like the walljumps rhyming with Etecoons' chymes? (lol could not find the post to quote)
<Deign> .dice 1d1999191023443691
<BisqBot> Deign rolls a blackhole and destroys the planet.
I think the difference was that I didn't need to get the power bombs from them, so that sped up the walljump strategy a bit overall.
But don't quote me on that. Even though there's a quote button right there ;)
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
But I thought JXQ proved walljumping method to the Etecoon PBs a frame faster than that shinespark, and moozooh even improved it saying something like the walljumps rhyming with Etecoons' chymes? (lol could not find the post to quote)
If the shinespark 1 frame slower than the walljump method, then my method is 1 frame faster than the walljump method. But I think moozooh improved the walljump method by 4 frames, so I lose again. Still, I need the power bombs, so stutter away!
I tested both variants there, and with collecting the unavoidable PB refills you will save ~20 frames with the shinespark method, which is pretty much. Thanks to the shutter walk at the beginning of the charge that allows you to start it immediately while landing on the last platform, and still getting the refills in time. Even without the refills, I can't see the shinespark method being more than 1, at most 2, frames slower compared to the walljunmp strategy, especially with the 2 frame improvement Kriole found at the morphing part anyway.
Speaking of RBO, how is your progress Kriole? I'm really interested how the new route turns out and how well you do with the new, harder, conditions at LN.
Speaking of RBO, how is your progress Kriole? I'm really interested how the new route turns out and how well you do with the new, harder, conditions at LN.
...new route? Oh, I see. You think I prioritize my v4. No, I will finish v3 first, so I got something to compare with. It's unjust, but still fun to see how much I will pwn myself. But, got much stuff to do atm, so I really can't be arsed to play my RBO for a while. I'm gonna let it sink in for awhile ;]. During my testrun I found out that the PB pack on the way to Ridley saves roughly 300 frames, if not even more. So that will be included in my new RBO.
And tbh, GIEF NEW REDESIGN WIP! =(
During my testrun I found out that the PB pack on the way to Ridley saves roughly 300 frames, if not even more. So that will be included in my new RBO.
Ha, I knew it.
EDIT: I was fooling around after kraid to figure out where the drops was placed ofscreen when I to my big surprise managed to somehow get to the top level of the room. I guess it is just extreme luck (or whatever you should call it) that allowed me to find a week point in the roof or something.
Say what?
Sure am, I think you would have noticed that if you checked the time in memwatch :)
Also lol, after looking in to it some more I realize that there is actually no platform at all separating the bottom of the room from the top of the room beyond X=277...
I really can't wait to see you in action on Zebes, and whether you can manage the impossible to save at least one frame over my TAS demo until pre-Torizo. :-)
The "impossible" is very much possible. Your zebes is far from perfect.
I and Taco started an any% run, aiming for realtime. We plan to pick up hi-jump boots, if anyone has a very good reason for us not to do so, please state your reason immidiately, taken that we already doubt that it will save time.
Our progress. We got 49'14 without any intro delays. Saved 2 frames until Blue Brinstar, 1 which none other than Taco, I think, have thought of, but lost both elevator frames. If we had finished Ceres with an even ingame number, we got 3131, we would have saved 1 ingame frame. But since we aim for realtime, there is no difference. We saved another 4 frames in blue brinstar, upon picking up morph ball, 2 frames, and the debris room after missiles, 2 frames upon climbing. We are WIPing until after OTES is finished, and 5 ingame frames faster than Saturn, 6 if not counting the ceres frame. (I have yet to check realtime, but we are approx 13~15 realtime frames faster)
All the best
EDIT: Almost forgot; Taco asked me to put up this
Well that sure made me feel worthless. I guess that is what working intensly for more than half a year on microscopic optimizations do to you.
Anyway, Hi-jump in no way can save the time it takes to get. If you take the E-tank there instead of at kraid you still add 2 door transitions, which is maybe 6-8 seconds, and 1 item pickup which is another 6-8 seconds (I think)
So that is 12-16 seconds added, taken the detour time in to account you only save maybe 5 seconds by taking high jump (if even that) and you save 2-3 seconds by not taking the Kraid E-tank. So at best you would loose ~4 seconds but more realisticaly I would guess you loose up to 10 seconds
So high jump is a no no, unless something grand is about to be revealed...
Hero's route is I think pretty flawless, he takes just the amount of missiles needed for motherbrain without needing to go back for refills the minimum amount of E-tanks (taken at optimal places) and so on. The only thing that comes to mind would be to skip Wavebeam and that missile in exchange for another Super in maridia removing two door transitions a item pickup and some detour time, ridley and MB would be so much slower that I doubt it would be faster at all and more problems like botwoon and draygon makes it even less probable. Also there is likely a million other problems about that change. The only difference I know that can be done to the route is to remove all pause screens which is possible with good ammo management, and even easier with a thing I discovered for draygon :)
Yes, Hi-Jump may save time in nearly every vertical room, but in the end, there are no known/remembered any% tricks that are possible with it and impossible otherwise, which alone makes it not worth getting in a realtime-oriented run.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
The only difference I know that can be done to the route is to remove all pause screens which is possible with good ammo management, and even easier with a thing I discovered for draygon :)
Hmmm, I wonder if the "thing" you mentioned is the same that I found when testing Draygon just before cancelling my any% run. :-)
But what about Botwoon? You would still need the Wave Beam to kill him not only faster, but also save 4 important Supers you would otherwise have to slowdown to get before the fight.
Cpadolf wrote:
I was fooling around after kraid to figure out where the drops was placed ofscreen when I to my big surprise managed to somehow get to the top level of the room. I guess it is just extreme luck (or whatever you should call it) that allowed me to find a week point in the roof or something.
Say what?
Nice. You can actually see in SMILE that the roof that cuts the room in half during the fight only exists till the end of the visible screen. It isn't even there in the right half of the room, so you can just spacejump it up there. :-)
Kriole wrote:
Wow, very nice job guys! Although you had alot of benefits from my demo, and very likely wouldn't match my Zebes times without studying it carefully, I'm highly impressed of your optimization level. As we can see now, teamwork indeed pays off sometimes. :-)
Regarding the Ceres improvement, a very clever tech you used (don't know who found it, so I'll be neutral here) at the elevator to land slightly more in the middle of it and thus cut the running distance until the trigger to gain 1 more frame. I never realized this could work out, so much respect for finding it guys! I wonder, can this be of benefit in other places, or does it only work on elevators? When jumping up the 1st stairs in Ceres Escape for example, wouldn't it be possible to land more to the right and therefore jump on the last platform with the door 1 frame earlier?
And to the main smv, you are exactly 11 realtime frames faster than my demo after OTES. For those who wonder about the improvements on Zebes, here a list with technical explanation and a few comments about them:
1 frame gained in the very first room by yet again delaying the dash button to not skip a important arm pump. I never thought it's enough to save a full frame with this tech, so I didn't even bother to try that. Thanks to the lazyness, I guess.
1 frame gained in the mainstreet room by using the spinjump instead of the normal one. This allows to shoot the bottom door a bit earlier even without the falling corner boost, since a spinjump has a slightly faster horizontal movement. A pretty obvious tech to use here, that's why I'm a bit pissed to have missed it...
2 frames gained by managing to unspin and still land on the platform right before Morph Ball. It's only possible by manipulating the falling move as shown there. Very weird but clever tech, which (I'll be straightly honest here) I probably wouldn't be able to find myself. The most useful tech in the smv IMO. Respect.
2 frames gained by using a walljump before shooting the shot blocks after getting the Missiles. Once again a pretty obvious tech, since after a walljump you have much greater jumping speed at the point of shooting the blocks, which accelerates the shot projectile in the upwards direction more than in the horizontal one, and thus allows you to shot it 2 frames earlier and still hit the top blocks that way. The most frustrating thing is that I abused this tech in other places in my previous runs, but just overlooked it here, and this sucks... :-(
1 frame saved by delaying the elevator jump on the way back to Crateria, which for some reason allows to land one frame earlier despite jumping 1 frame later. Strange tech I somehow managed to overlook as well.
1 frame saved in OTES. Once again a really stupid one, since it just required to slightly delay the key-walljump before the 3rd platform, to land on it one frame earlier. A really unnecessary overlook of me.
Oh, and for the note, I actually did a test in Ceres to aim exclusively for realtime including the escape, and I recently got a 49'06, which was even 4 realtime frames faster than Taco's and Kriole's new smv. But despite doing a realtime-oriented run as well, I decided to do a exception in the escape, and sacrificed the few realtime frames to boost the clock up as much as possible. I think it's worth to do so even in such a run, because the end result you will always see in the timer later, just looks much more optimized that way.
And regarding the HJ-Boots, it may save a few ingame frames in the end, and definitely makes the run more entertaining to watch, but is a few seconds slower in realtime, and thus not worth the take in any way if you aim for a realtime-oriented run.
2 frames gained by managing to unspin and still land on the platform right before Morph Ball. It's only possible by manipulating the falling move as shown there. Very weird but clever tech, which (I'll be straightly honest here) I probably wouldn't be able to find myself. The most useful tech in the smv IMO. Respect.
Even after I put it up for confirmation in my (already outdated) improvement list?
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
I am going to say that I agree with Saturn on the Ceres time. You guys should use the 49'20 timer, even if it costs 7 real time frames. In fact, I would optimize every single door for in-game time. I know this sounds crazy, but the difference between a 24 end game time and a 23 end game time is much much closer than we all could have imagined. Even with my specially designed realtime route, I think the 23 is possible. I am going to be submitting my run soon, so we will know then how much more time needs to be saved. It would be a great day when we see a real time oriented run, achieve the best in-game timer also.
As for draygon, I think we all know about his little secret now ;)
High Jump boots are a very easy skip. The amount of time is costs to collect them if far far greater than the amount of time they will save later on. Remember that the maridia shinespark is possible without high jump boots. My new run will not contain a single pause menu visit, which alone saves 6 seconds.
Wow, very nice job guys! Although you had alot of benefits from my demo, and very likely wouldn't match my Zebes times without studying it carefully
just like they had to closely study your escape demo to barely match your time. right.
edit: oh, I wouldn't mind anyone doing a 49"22 in a realtime-oriented run, but that's the author's decision, either way is fine with me :)
looking forward to your run hero. still can't believe you've been working on this all along without telling us, but it was probably the best choice.
* 1 frame gained in the very first room by yet again delaying the dash button to not skip a important arm pump. I never thought it's enough to save a full frame with this tech, so I didn't even bother to try that. Thanks to the lazyness, I guess.
Yes, I guess the reason that it was overlooked by so many is that you can't gain the distance needed to save a frame here by better speedmanagement (A rough guess is that with the best possible you would be maybe 2-3 pixles away) but you can shoot the door earlier with better speedmanagement as the needed distance to gain is obviously smaller.
Saturn wrote:
*
* 1 frame gained in the mainstreet room by using the spinjump instead of the normal one. This allows to shoot the bottom door a bit earlier even without the falling corner boost, since a spinjump has a slightly faster horizontal movement. A pretty obvious tech to use here, that's why I'm a bit pissed to have missed it...
This is an excellent example of how annoying SM is to optimize to the limit, because you so easily loose frames in areas like this. A trick (low boost in this case) might be faster in a hundred other places but here it saves a frame not to. I'm impressed actually that Taco found it, not because it needs extreme optimization but because it is so ridiculously easy to overlook.
Saturn wrote:
Hmmm, I wonder if the "thing" you mentioned is the same that I found when testing Draygon just before cancelling my any% run. :-)
Well I found out that you can actually delay the last shinespark by a good deal of time (I have not checked but I think I do it by 1-2 seconds) and still get the drops at roughly the same time (my guess is that he dies faster if he is closer to the middle of the room) , I use it to spam healthdrops from him which allows me to do an extra shinespark later in the run and in a realtime run it would mean that you are able to skip the drops from him completely, bombjumping up to the door skipping two pause screens and still have enough health for the shinespark in the big room without making huge delays to get refills earlier. Also that means you could concentrate more on getting super missiles for botwoon. (I'm pretty sure that it is faster to skip that pausescreen even with the delays and in any way it will look cleaner) For the upcoming 100% run this "trick" will probably used to get supers.
EDIT:
hero of the day wrote:
Even with my specially designed realtime route, I think the 23 is possible.
I sure hope so :)
I estimate my any% to land somewhere between 23:45 and 23:50 so that would mean (if it is possible) that the realtime route is much much closer to the ingame route timewise than I thought.
Also watch Kriole/Taco go insane in the big diagonal room when searching for perfection :P I'll be really disappointed if you are slower than 290 frames in that room.
