Topic by Reeve

Posted: 1/12/2012 4:58 AM

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Reeve

Joined: 5/12/2009
Posts: 748
Location: Brazil

Oh sh*t, yeah. I completlyt forgot about that. Well, that would be a trade off for entertainment i guess. Also, there was never a run (as far as i know) that used that path (not counting RBOs), so i think it could be interesting showing a new route. Also, 1 super less may be not that much of a problem. Maybe with a good planning you could collect some supers after Wrecked Ship and that Wrap around in WS attic alone (if you guys plan using it) may save 5 supers over Cpadolf's run. I'll try to see if i have any idea for picking up drops in that route. Btw, regarding that shinespark i posted, going to the gravity statue, i think health wouldn't be a problem considering you're not going to use the shinespark to the upper missile pack and it seems this mentioned shinespark would cost less health, also, after the shinespark animation and while Samus is still in the air, it could be possible to quickly collect one or two drops of the enemies killed by the shinespark before entering the door to the gravity statue room. In other hand, it could be possible to collect some supers drops there, so, are you planning a shinespark there (if it saves time) or you think it's better to go through that rooms in the usual way? or maybe you're not even planning anything, just gathering information... I'm just curious. Edit: Do you think that mockball is really faster than going straight to the tunnel? Maybe with a turn around animation or kago in the wallcrawler to avoid beeing pushed back and a morph, unmorph and morph in the right position to enter the hole without loosing time it could be a little bit faster... Edit 2: Nevermind! I tested and it's around 8 frames slower. Edit 3: I remembered now that this route has one more door transition, so it's 3 sec (iirc) more for realtime. If i was going for in-game time i wouldn't care too much about it, as long as it's not a pause screen.

Posted: 1/12/2012 11:37 AM

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P.JBoy

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If you wanna get more TASers hero of the day, you gotta start adding to the SuperMetroidTricks wiki page. It'd be great to have a section for the little micro-optimisations that happen throughout gameplay

Posted: 1/12/2012 1:12 PM

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lxx4xNx6xxl

Joined: 11/26/2010
Posts: 444
Location: New York, US

I really think this could be useful somewhere. Maybe this will justify early Charge Beam depending on how useful it can be. I believe this technique could be used to clear a rooms with multiple enemies as well as powerful enemies given the opportunity. It could possibly add even more flare to the run as well. The first one is what happens when its demonstrated on a powerful enemy which normally takes 1 Super and a Missile or 4 Missiles. You have 1 Frame to shoot and kill the enemy before you get hit. Could be useful against the Hoppers in Pink Brinstar for example instead of wasting a Super Missile. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1718690956/Pseudo%20Screw%20Attack%20Beam%201.smv This is the same technique just used against a weaker enemy. You have 2 Frames to be able to release a Charge Beam after he dies. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1620504923/Pseudo%20Screw%20Attack%20Beam%202.smv It would be cool to Pseudo Screw Attack an enemy and boost as you release a charged shot to another enemy in front or above/below you.

My name is 4N6/Forensics.

Posted: 1/12/2012 7:33 PM

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Reeve

Joined: 5/12/2009
Posts: 748
Location: Brazil

This is really cool, forensics. I don''t know if it could be used to help in any room, but i thought in something, i just don't know how it works. I remember that, in SM Redesign, Ridley is weak against Pseudo Screw and can be killed very quickly with this, so maybe it could be beaten even faster by shooting him after hitting him with the Pseudo Screw. Regarding Super Metroid, i don't know if Ridley can be damaged (Or Mother Brain) by a Pseudo Screw, it could be usefull too, for example, in the beginning of the fight against Ridley, Shoot a Charged Plasma from the ceiling like Saturn did, then charge the beam again and jump in Ridley to pseudo screw and then shoot after the hit connect, so it would be three hits instead of just two. If it would work in Mother Brain it could be even more usefull. Mainly if a Pseudo Screw damages the same amount of the charged beam.

Posted: 1/12/2012 8:34 PM

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lxx4xNx6xxl

Joined: 11/26/2010
Posts: 444
Location: New York, US

I don't think it damages bosses at all to be honest. Also the Pseudo Screw Attack only does 200 Damage no matter what beams are equipped. Also this can be effective in your new route strategy in Pink Brinstar on the first hopper to save a Super Missile. It should kill the Big Hopper as well allowing more optimal drops and conserving more ammo in the process.

P.JBoy wrote:

If you wanna get more TASers hero of the day, you gotta start adding to the SuperMetroidTricks wiki page. It'd be great to have a section for the little micro-optimisations that happen throughout gameplay

I would love to see the tricks page updated cause so many new tricks where discovered since it was last updated!!!!! P.J.Boy thanks for making that Dump File for Super Metroid Weapon Damage and Boss Health. Is it possible for you to make a file that lists for the Health and Weaknesses for the normal enemies in the game. If you can I would greatly appreciate it. Also Hero I must say TASing sounds interesting. I'm more focused on my Console Run for SDA though. Plus I'm more of an idea man anyway. I will try to help in anyway I can though. Because every Super Metroid TAS helped me to understand the game even more as well as giving birth to ideas that people didn't think was possible to pull off on Console. I don't know if I have the patients to TAS honestly but, I might look into it when all my runs are done just because the game is so interesting. Thanks for recommending me to try TASing it. BTW Reeve I think you should start TASing it. I honestly think you have potential to become a great Super Metroid TASer. You have great ideas and have as much knowledge about the game as I do and you actually TAS really good for someone without much experience in TASing.

My name is 4N6/Forensics.

Posted: 1/12/2012 10:44 PM

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hero_of_the_day

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Joined: 11/14/2005
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Location: United States

P.JBoy wrote:

If you wanna get more TASers hero of the day, you gotta start adding to the SuperMetroidTricks wiki page. It'd be great to have a section for the little micro-optimisations that happen throughout gameplay

yeah, that page is horribly out of date :/ I will try to generate a list of things that need to be added.

They're off to find the hero of the day...

Posted: 1/12/2012 11:10 PM

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P.JBoy

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lxx4xNx6xxl wrote:

Is it possible for you to make a file that lists for the Health and Weaknesses for the normal enemies in the game. If you can I would greatly appreciate it.

Sure, I'll add it after the exams; until then, here's this:

Posted: 1/13/2012 5:48 AM

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Reeve

Joined: 5/12/2009
Posts: 748
Location: Brazil

lxx4xNx6xxl wrote:

BTW Reeve I think you should start TASing it. I honestly think you have potential to become a great Super Metroid TASer. You have great ideas and have as much knowledge about the game as I do and you actually TAS really good for someone without much experience in TASing.

I don't think i'll ever TAS an entire game, just tasing a small room in SM is already pain enough. Btw, here are some very minor possibilities: Right after Draygon, Cp collects Energy Tank. Wouldn't it be faster to Space Jump to it? I mean, when close to the entrance to it, space jump and when reaching the ledge of the ceiling, just space jump again, so Samus would be closer to the entrance to the E.T. or would armpumping be better? Regarding that big Turtle room, would it be possible to shoot that block with the Missile pack with the Wave Beam from next to the door, in a way that you could jump straight up and keep walljumping, so you avoid having to land in the wall just to shoot up to break that block. Isn't there a way to make this work? Regarding that Lighters bugs room, i did a small test and got to the Energy Tank Platform around 19/20 frames faster than Cp, but as I couldn't get a damage boost from the bugger close to E.T. that would make Samus land in the platform in the left corner, i don't know if this is worth or not. Here is the smv. Edit: Does anybody have any idea of how to wrap around from left to right??? Have anyone ever seen this wrap around? What would be these "Extreme Circunstances" the game resources page of TASvideos says???

Posted: 1/13/2012 2:31 PM

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Behemoth

Joined: 5/3/2011
Posts: 17
Location: England

For escaping Ridley Could a delayed shinespark after a Beam work. Plasma-wave charged ? About the left to right wrap arounds: I think the game resource page is simply using those words as to not completely rule out the possibility of it somehow working. Without actually suggesting how it could be done. That's how it reads to my eyes anyway. edit: actually I see there could be problems with having a full charged beam because of time running out for the shinespark. Looks like we'll have to find out how to do these left to right wrap arounds !!!

Posted: 1/13/2012 6:26 PM

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Cpadolf

Skilled player (1431)

Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden

Okay, so I think charge beam is pretty much a no-go unless I'm missing something. It'll save maybe 30 frames from the croco wrap around shot (around 50 to start with but you have to save some health afterwards to not die). Landing site shouldn't be that much, since it's a bit inconvenient to set up, and it saves 40 frames or so from a bomb spread in norfair. In WS attic, all the wrap around shot will do is save you some super missiles. It's not actually faster. It wastes a little time to set up the wrap around shot (landing in the middle of the staircase instead of mockballing into the next room, and possibly having to slow down a bit get your beam to fully charge in time, and still kill everything). On the way back you can do this, which is actually faster than doing it after having opened the door with the wrap around shot. This is because if you have already opened the door once (with a wrap around shot), it'll be solid blue and take longer to open, which means you'll have to stall a bit as can be seen at the end in this rough test I made to estimate the time a wrap around shot would save. And you don't effectively have to slow down at all to kill everything on the way back. It's hard to estimate how much time it costs in the long run to use a few more super like this, but I doubt it's very much. Wave might still be worth it though, hopefully it's possible to save enough time with it to justify getting it early. I'm having a hard time thinking of areas where the pseudo screw-attack+Beam thing could be of use. Using it against that hopper in Pink Brinstar is a good idea, but because of how the first damageboost is done in that room it would waste time to do so. Eye of the Beholder: Post Draygon E-Tank - I think it's better to just run. Because you go faster that way, you'll quicker reach the point where you can jump up. The height of the jump is so low that it will likely not make any difference if you have a slightly higher position. Turtle room - Doubt it. To get the angle for the shot, it seems like you have to go so slow that it will disappear of screen before you can catch up to it. Post Ridley shinespark - I think this has been tested before. You need to get so far into the room before shinesparking to avoid crashing into the door, that it isn't worth it even if it was possible, which IIRC it isn't. Lightbug E-tank room - I'm thinking that the method used in the RBO is probably the best, though I never actually compared it to anything else more closely. EDIT: You don't have to fire the last two supers in that smv either, there's enough time to open the door even if you kill the last two enemies by touching them.

Agare Bagare Kopparslagare

Posted: 1/14/2012 12:19 AM

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Reeve

Joined: 5/12/2009
Posts: 748
Location: Brazil

That was a really nice smv, Cpadolf! The next 100% run seems will be the most entertaining 100% run. I'd like to see the Wave Been in this run. I don't know if the calculations will be in favor, but if the difference is just a few frames, it could be worth a trade off for entertainment, as it will allow new stuffs to make the next run different from the current one. Keep up the good work, guys! I've been watching your run over and over, but nothing useful comes to my mind. No need to say you did an awesome job! I think from now on the improvements will come from small details that you guys are more used to. Good luck! Edit: Had a crazy idea, but i don't know if it could possibly work or even if it works, if it would save any time given the issues to make it work... I'll not describe the room, instead i'll attach the smv showing the room and will describe only the idea. The idea here is to do a Cristal Flash in the very up corner after destroying the breakeable block, and try to make Samus get into the ceiling (like kriole did in GT room) enough to make her touch the crumble block to make it desapear and clear the passage for Samus to get the Item, avoiding a big back track. Again, even if it works, i don't know if it would be useful, given the amount of health you would have to loose for the CF and the time spent Cristal Flashing. The good news is there's a Spiked ground in the way, but the bad news is there is a E.T in the way too. Here is the smv showing the room. Edit 2: I think this has a chance to work, as long as Samus is set above the ledge of the crumble block, if she is very close to it, just a turn around animation will make the block crumble, like in this smv. If it saves any time, the Energy Tank in the lightbugs room could be taken before going down to Ridley and the energy could be wasted by deequiping the Varia and Gravity Suit and taking damage by the heat and spikes in the double kago room or something like that. Also, the pause screen to disable the Varia Suit and Gravity Suit wouldn't be a problem too, as you would do it anyway in Torian and very conveniently, kriole found that trick to go through the zebetites without desabling the Screw Attack, so there would be no need to take it off. Also, the amount of energy might be enough to survive the heat after the Cristal Flash, so there would be probably no need to pause again to equip the Suits. Man, i'd really like this to work and save time.

Posted: 1/14/2012 11:40 AM

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Gromba

Joined: 6/7/2008
Posts: 11

Eye Of The Beholder wrote:

Here is the smv showing the room.

Today I've added the feature of linking to the current position in my zebes map link

Posted: 1/14/2012 1:38 PM

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Behemoth

Joined: 5/3/2011
Posts: 17
Location: England

Great ideas reeve and somehow I'm in favour of the crystal flash glitching that room because that detour to grab the PB's annoys me. Cpadolf - one of the sickest things I've seen in a long while !!, and yes it would seem wrap arounding here is pointless and detrimental if you have a solid blue door. Shame there's no spring ball at this point because it looks like you could do some jumps on the platforms and possibly reach the cliff missiles :P

Posted: 1/15/2012 12:00 AM

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Cpadolf

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Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden

I checked the crystal flash shortcut, it's unfortunately over 2 seconds slower even if discounting the delay to lose health/get more supers.

Agare Bagare Kopparslagare

Posted: 1/15/2012 4:19 AM

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Reeve

Joined: 5/12/2009
Posts: 748
Location: Brazil

Oh yeah, unfortunatelly. I did a little calculation from the missile pack to the pb pack room and it takes less than the time needed to cristal flash unfortunatelly. I forgot to post it here, sorry. If there was a way to cancel the CF animation... Thanks for testing it, Cpadolf.

Posted: 1/15/2012 12:33 PM

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Cpadolf

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Joined: 7/15/2007
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Location: Sweden

I'm thinking it might be better to just grab Spazer early even if you pick up Wave. Wave PB Combo only saves about 45-50 frames combined on Draygon and Botwoon. On Botwoon you only lose about half of what you "should" lose, because the wall breaking is triggered by his tail hitting the ground, and it will be in a much lower position due to the longer fight. On Draygon you lose close to nothing because of how that fight works. Meanwhile, it's about 30 frames slower to grab Spazer after LN (unless I completely failed at testing that), and I'm quite sure it saves a decent amount of time refilling in Norfair since the normal beam doesn't kill the crawlers in one hit. Furthermore, Wave/Spazer might help you a little more in refilling stuff, since it should kill some enemies faster. The only thing I can see that makes it questionable is that you have to waste a few more supers.

Agare Bagare Kopparslagare

Posted: 1/15/2012 1:15 PM

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Reeve

Joined: 5/12/2009
Posts: 748
Location: Brazil

Cpadolf wrote:

I'm thinking it might be better to just grab Spazer early even if you pick up Wave. Wave PB Combo only saves about 45-50 frames combined on Draygon and Botwoon. On Botwoon you only lose about half of what you "should" lose, because the wall breaking is triggered by his tail hitting the ground, and it will be in a much lower position due to the longer fight. On Draygon you lose close to nothing because of how that fight works.

Do you mean, pick it up when heading to Norfair? Would it be that much slower to grab the Spazer right before Maridia?

Posted: 1/15/2012 1:21 PM

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Cpadolf

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Well if you grab it right before Maridia you miss the benefits of having it early, while also missing the benefits of only having Wave in Maridia.

Agare Bagare Kopparslagare

Posted: 1/15/2012 1:41 PM

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Reeve

Joined: 5/12/2009
Posts: 748
Location: Brazil

I see. Well, it might make easier to refill your health in Norfair and Supers after Wrecked ship. Edit: Btw, i don't know if you would have run-up/time enough but it seems it's possible to CWJ jump from the door leading to the Spazer room. Edit 2: Cpadolf, i PMed you about something i don't want to possible spoil here, could you check please?

Posted: 1/15/2012 5:17 PM

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P.JBoy

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P.JBoy wrote:

lxx4xNx6xxl wrote:
Is it possible for you to make a file that lists for the Health and Weaknesses for the normal enemies in the game. If you can I would greatly appreciate it.
Sure, I'll add it after the exams; until then, here's this:

Ok, I had some free time

Posted: 1/15/2012 8:51 PM

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Reeve

Joined: 5/12/2009
Posts: 748
Location: Brazil

Had an idea that could be some frames faster, issue (that may be not that much of an issue) is you need 15 health points more than Cpadolf used in his run. In WS, after picking up the second Super Missile pack and going for the hidden passage in the left, land the power bomb as usual, then instead of going up to mockball, charge a shinespark, then jump up and quickly run and mockball. You have to unmorph in the beginning of the stair cause if you release the Shinespark right after emerging in the other side of the hole, Samus will kiss the spiked platform. It costs around 75 health point, while Cp used 60 in his run damage boosting.

Posted: 1/15/2012 9:52 PM

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Oddity

Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 178

So I had this dream that someone found a way for Samus to do an even faster shine spark, her palette a darker red while activating it. Then it evolved into some strange thing later, an even more new, evolved technique, where she flies horizontally, with a big fat rocket strapped to her back. She could crumble unbreakable blocks with it, albeit at a slower pace than any normal shine spark, and eventually got to some "area" with all four bosses circling together uncontrollably, around a dark void. Uh then I forget what happened. But on a potentially applicable note, I dreamed of an actual official TAS WIP using a hell of a lot more instances of morph ball bombs---the type that spreads 5 morph ball bombs over a large area. Wouldn't that be more useful in areas where it isn't yet utilized? I think it could be useful in any instance where a bomb must be used to crumble that type of wall, provided there are enough power bombs (which are what I think gets used up for the technique). It would be a BLAST trying to get the trajectory correct for each destination...

<^>v AB X LR s

Posted: 1/15/2012 10:26 PM

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Derakon

Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960

The bomb spread doesn't use up any consumables; you just charge the beam, go into morph ball, and release.

Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.

Posted: 1/15/2012 10:54 PM

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moozooh

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You can also charge it while in morphed form by holding down, IIRC, that way the bombs fly farther. No particular application to that, as far as I'm aware, although a possible application would be a reasonably long morphball tunnel ending with a bomb block and the player having Charge beam and no spare powerbombs. To be honest, I don't remember anything like that in typical SM routes.

Warp wrote:

Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.

Posted: 1/15/2012 11:30 PM

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Reeve

Joined: 5/12/2009
Posts: 748
Location: Brazil

moozooh wrote:

You can also charge it while in morphed form by holding down, IIRC, that way the bombs fly farther. No particular application to that, as far as I'm aware, although a possible application would be a reasonably long morphball tunnel ending with a bomb block and the player having Charge beam and no spare powerbombs. To be honest, I don't remember anything like that in typical SM routes.

Iirc there's not such a long tunel, but i thought about this possibility for the Grapple trick in Draygon's room. So the bomb could reach the door while Samus is far enough to get the best swing for entering the Space Jump room with high speed.