Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Yes, JXQ and I realized many months ago that the timer and steam are greatly influence by realtime, not in-game time. We attempted to hex in frames into my V2 run until I obtained perfect steam in the 4th room, but the delays got so big that it was not worth it in the end. Clearly Saturn found a key to obtaining perfect steam with a very small delay, but without knowing the 2 different spots he delayed (the exact amount of frames per spot, is what I mean), it is impossible to duplicate.
Hmm? Weren't you asking me how to optimize the subpixel positions (and what did they mean at all) a couple months back?
Yeah, I did out of curiousity, because I don't need to use the memory watcher for pixels and subpixels in order to make a perfect run. I just did it the conventional way, by comparing to the in-game time between doors only. I obviously optimized every subpixel to the max, but just without watching it in the memory watcher.
About the countdown-timer changes, Cpadolf is right. Although it can vary up till 0,02 sec, it's not manipulable other than that. It will always go by 1 sec after every 60 frames, and this is good, otherwise you could just manipulate and cheat the timer up without any true frame gains.
And no, moozooh, I didn't determine any patterns about the timer. It's random.
hero of the day wrote:
Clearly Saturn found a key to obtaining perfect steam with a very small delay, but without knowing the 2 different spots he delayed (the exact amount of frames per spot, is what I mean), it is impossible to duplicate.
Yeah, TASing isn't just about dublicating a existing run. Show your own work. :-)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Never said it was about duplicating someone else's work. Clearly I know how to find new things on my own ;) I just said that you happened to have the best escape timer delays. Since I go for real time, this doesn't even apply to me. I am just trying to help out the other TASers, because everyone else goes for in-game time.
The timer uses an index (7E05B6, incremented every NMI, aka every real-time frame) for a table of 01's and 02's. Every active (aka normal gameplay) frame, it will decrease the clock by that much.
However, since 7E05B6 can be incremented and skip over 02's during something like a room transition, the end time for a room can end up 1/100th of a second faster/slower even with identical gameplay for that room.
It's not really something to worry about though. It's really insignificant, and delaying to get a better time index for a room will give you a net gain of 0. You'd have to delay once and get a better index for *two* rooms. And that time is only for Ceres - it doesn't help your end game time nor real time.
kwinse wrote:
Kejardon wrote:
Kriole wrote:
Samus is damaged by a Rinka in the opening.
That's a script action; no damage.
... it just dawned on me I know way too much about SM.
Hmm? Weren't you asking me how to optimize the subpixel positions (and what did they mean at all) a couple months back?
Yeah, I did out of curiousity, because I don't need to use the memory watcher for pixels and subpixels in order to make a perfect run. I just did it the conventional way, by comparing to the in-game time between doors only. I obviously optimized every subpixel to the max, but just without watching it in the memory watcher.
Saturn,
Many times people have thought their work was optimal, only to have it further improved, using a memory watcher, because without the memory watch they never thought to try certain things. A very good example of this is in Contra, adelikat discovered that genisto had lost time at many bosses, because shooting creates lag, and he shot them many times before they became vulnerable.
That may not seem relevant, but it illustrates the fact that if you weren't using RAM watch, you have likely overlooked several ways to shave even more frames.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
Upthorn, I actually use RAM watch, but only through Snes9x, since gochas memory watcher tool doesn't work for me. Because of that I only use the most important adresses to not spam the screen unnecessarily, such as in-game timer (this is always on, and it allows me to indicate lag perfectly by just comparing it to real-time), and when I'm at bosses of course boss-HP. I don't feel limited at all that way, in fact having too many adresses to follow would even be disturbing when optimizing a run because it would distract me from concentrating on the most important things.
I'm pretty sure I still optimized my Ceres rooms to the max, because when even JXQ, hero and especially moozooh (who is known for extremely crazy frame optimization) didn't manage to beat them "with" using the memory watcher for all possible stuff, then this says much, I think.
I'm pretty sure I still optimized my Ceres rooms to the max, because when even JXQ, hero and especially moozooh (who is known for extremely crazy frame optimization) didn't manage to beat them "with" using the memory watcher for all possible stuff, then this says much, I think.
Hey, I haven't even tried the escape yet. So far I'm only in the second room. And you forgot those 3 frames you have lost in the first pre-ridley room. ;)
Also, it feels like you're comparing apples and oranges, since we weren't able to monitor randomness via RAM watch, either. We are under the same conditions, and so far the only thing that prevents us from having perfect randomness is willingness to test every delay combination (there can be thousands of them, all very similar). And since hero and JXQ were going for realtime frame count, it wasn't even among their goals. I and evilchen are pretty much the only ones except you who strive for better ingame frame count/escape timer.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Hey, I haven't even tried the escape yet. So far I'm only in the second room. And you forgot those 3 frames you have lost in the first pre-ridley room. ;)
I actually meant the first rooms until Ridley.
And you are terribly wrong about my frame loss. I thought I explained it to you on IRC, but here you go again: I was 3 frames slower, because I missed the elevator hop trick at the "very" beginning in the first room that saves this 3 frames. All other, later rooms were frame-perfect and thus same fast. As you know, you all got 801 until Ridleys room, I got 804 because of this.
moozooh wrote:
Also, it feels like you're comparing apples and oranges, since we weren't able to monitor randomness via RAM watch, either.
Nope, you monitor pixels and subpixels to optimize every door, where I did it just by routine. It sure gives you big advantages to save some frames at them.
And don't have too much hope on the escape either. You won't beat my times there, because they are perfect as well. I'm actually glad you work on it by now, so hopefully we will see your (slower but without seeing my version still impressive) result soon. :-)
Every time you post, you just get (or seem to get) more and more arrogant. Would you like to add something to the discussion instead of 'mine will be much better'?
It seems like this, that's pretty bad, nothings perfect, and I doubt that there will be an ultimate metroid run that will have the lowest time and that won't be improvable.
And how can you know for a fact that moozooh will not get as good times as you?
EDIT: Also I should say for your own best to avoid major dislike from many that if you have information that you and only you have but are not willing to tell then for god's sake don't say you have such information, it makes you sound like "I'm better cus I know stuff you don't"
This is only my opinion though.
And how can you know for a fact that moozooh will not get as good times as you?
I didn't say moozooh will not get as good times as me. If he does it perfect, he sure will (though chances are not very high for that). I just meant he won't be able to beat them since a perfect time can't be beaten. Thats all.
Cpadolf wrote:
Also I should say for your own best to avoid major dislike from many that if you have information that you and only you have but are not willing to tell then for god's sake don't say you have such information, it makes you sound like "I'm better cus I know stuff you don't"
This is only my opinion though.
Hero actually asked me for this information, so I gave him because I'm a nice guy. I didn't mean to cause troubles with it.
I just meant it like an overall pointer because sometimes you like to say things in the wrong way.
Also you have made your fair share of "that's impossible" statements.
EDIT: Saturn wrote:
And don't have too much hope on the escape either. You won't beat my times there, because they are perfect as well. I'm actually glad you work on it by now, so hopefully we will see your (slower but without seeing my version still impressive) result soon. :-)
I don't know how you meant to say this either but to me it clearly sounds like you are saying that moozooh will be slower.
Also you have made your fair share of "that's impossible" statements.
If you mean the Maridia Gate, thats true. Whats wrong with it?
Cpadolf wrote:
I don't know how you meant to say this either but to me it clearly sounds like you are saying that moozooh will be slower.
Just assuming, because chances are not very low for that. I would be glad to be proven otherwise of course.
I see there is a slight mistake in that statement, so let me fix it:
Saturn wrote:
And don't have too much hope on the escape either. You won't beat my times there, because they are perfect as well. I'm actually glad you work on it by now, so hopefully we will see your (probably slower but without seeing my version still impressive) result soon. :-)
It's better, though people will still (probably) take it as a "I'm better" statement, I do understand you though.
AFAIK it's not only the maridia gate. I don't know everything in detail but many say that you are a frequent nay sayer who is often proven wrong.
For example there was the Torizo skip, sure with what you knew at that point it was impossible but that's the thing, you don't take into account that there could be ways that no one knows of yet that might change things. Same goes for the maridia gate (though I do doubt it will ever be opened from the wrong side)
Anyway I don't want to take this discussion any further, 1. Because I'm tired (got up at 6 for work and it's 1 now) 2. I don't feel like I have anything more to say.
I just meant he won't be able to beat them since a perfect time can't be beaten. Thats all.
I don't mean to jump into this fight, but is it 110% sure that 49"15' can't be beaten? I mean by delaying frames in the opening in more affective places or stuff like that.
We had a little talk with CPadolf some time ago and that inspired me back to TASing. :) Though progressing very slowly I've started to tie in frames in some rooms with JXQ and I'm now escaping Ceres.
<Deign> .dice 1d1999191023443691
<BisqBot> Deign rolls a blackhole and destroys the planet.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
We all love nitsuja, because he is the most modest, coolest runner I know of on the site who has the absolute best forum etiquette. I suggest you read all his posts to get a sense of why we love him and why we think of you as an 'arrogant guy who feels he is superior to us all and that all we can hope for is to match your perfect results, which you won't share with us.'
Every time you post, you just get (or seem to get) more and more arrogant. Would you like to add something to the discussion instead of 'mine will be much better'?
I must admit, this is EXACTLY how I am seeing it... every post it's just pure and absolute arrogance... definitely not impressed by it. Thankfully everyone else is in such a reasonable mood ^_^ Watching the learning process is absolutely fascinating, even if I don't possess the skills myself.
Mr. Kelly R. Flewin
Mr. Kelly R. Flewin
Just another random gamer
----
<OmnipotentEntity> How do you people get bored in the span of 10 seconds? Worst ADD ever.
well ive tested tons of frame adding stuff now to affect the randomness and well thats how far iam now
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/224653771/%21nbmb%2B8.smv
(yeah it is jxq's movies but the begining wont change due its perfect so far ;/ blame me for it)
i have added 8 frames in the intro and 1 frame to correct the desync occuring from the 8 frames before
well the result is really good i guess in room 4 at the escape i was able to fully pump(hero told me its able with good steam) the whole way and gained some pixels before jxq
i just post it to have other test with it too because i need quite much time to optimize a door or a spikeboost compared to hero moozooh or other people here :D hope you found something soon and post it :D
EDIT: breaking news with that smv i was able to open the last door 4 frames earlier then jxq - without optimizing it very well (yet) maybe that helps to archive a very good time now!
i doubt he will finish any run (ergo no smvs from him :P) *smiles at saturn :D :D :D *cough rbo cough*
You are wrong. I will finish EVERY run I started, trust me.
It will just take some time.
Tonski wrote:
is it 110% sure that 49"15' can't be beaten? I mean by delaying frames in the opening in more affective places or stuff like that.
Yep, 120% if you want. I'm very positive on that. ;-)
evilchen wrote:
breaking news with that smv i was able to open the last door 4 frames earlier then jxq - without optimizing it very well (yet) maybe that helps to archive a very good time now!
Wow, that looks very promising. Great job you do so far, evilchen, respect!
EDIT:
And to everybody who still misunderstands me, I never said I'm superior to anybody. I just said that I got a perfect time. Speaking the truth is hopefully still allowed, or isn't it?
