Topic by JXQ

Posted: 1/17/2006 6:02 PM

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JXQ

Experienced player (750)

Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132

I'm going to watch Viper7's run tonight and see if I can't find anything specific worth noting. I can think of one of the castles where you climb up fences for a while (the 4th world I think) could be faster if there is some footing you can grab, then just use the fast climbing glitch. Also, glad to hear you are working on this. Good luck! :)

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 1/17/2006 6:08 PM

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Fabian

Former player

Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711

There are small improvements possible in almost every non-straightforward level. It's nice to have an extra (better) set of eyes, so thanks! Sending you an email in a sec.

Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk

Posted: 1/17/2006 6:26 PM

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Truncated

Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (968)

Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3107
Location: Sweden

>Truncated: Flying is faster than hopping. Hmm, I thought they were actually the same speed but I must have misremembered then. Never mind that idea then.

Posted: 1/17/2006 8:23 PM

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JXQ

Experienced player (750)

Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132

If you begin flying, and then start the hopping trick from flight, you can keep your flight speed. Maybe that's what you were thinking of. Without a cape, you can only go slightly faster than running speed.

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 1/17/2006 11:40 PM

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jimsfriend

Former player

Joined: 1/17/2006
Posts: 775
Location: Deign

I don't know what you already know, but I know that some of these things could be/are possible and they aren't in the current video. I made these pictures a while ago, so some things might have changed. http://img135.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=d171f_DGH_secret_exit.JPG This is not purely speculation (what the picture says). I have successfully walljumped up to door A after flying under those two pillars. With the rapid height gain glitch you can probably do it as the picture shows. Of course you will probably want to collect all the coins along the way too? http://img140.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=th_b5910_down_slant.JPG I don't know who discovered the fly through wall trick, but maybe it works on downward slants too? I have never been able to produce it, but I am limited by reflex and skill. I am sure you probably already tried this though... http://img137.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=e6637_DS1_both_exit.JPG Ignore everything about which turtle to grab. The green lettering under the key explains the picture I hope. Swimming under the key exit should be faster because you don't have to throw the shell and then grab it again several times to gain altitude. Unless I missed something that wastes frames? http://img125.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=ba717_under_lava.JPG This one explains itself. Please forgive my lack of knowledge on this kind of thing (poor terminology is because I don't know the proper terms, for example: I don't know what a sprite is). Also, after playing through the game again I realized The lava (this picture is from Wendy's Castle) does not show up onscreen below the black line drawn in the lava. However, I saw in the SDW 100% at 51ish minutes (iirc) it is possible to fly completely under the screen w/o coming up back to be visible. The basic question is whether or not it is possible to fly under lava. http://img143.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=05c70_VD1_last_half.JPG I have confirmed this. I don't know where to come up from under the ground though. It should be faster because unless the picture is out of proportion (which it could be, but I doubt it) then you would be flying the whole time you would otherwise have 2 pipe entrances and 2 times you have to work the p-run back up. IDK where to come up because flying under the screen is hard to say the least. http://img143.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=27f58_VD2_fly_explain.JPG This should be possible, but I have never been able to pull it off. The picture explains itself mostly. Here's another picture of that level: http://img144.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=47b27_VD2_both_exit.JPG for both exits. If those don't work, try this: http://img21.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc178&image=b31e6_SMW_help_VD2.JPG http://img128.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=9ab45_VoB4_reg_exit.JPG If this is possible then it could also be used to do the key exit. Simply grab the key from underneath (gain altitude by flying back and forth in place) and then use the jump_grab key glitch up the pillar on the right of the key hole and put the key in through the wall. This should work, but I wouldn't know for sure. http://img24.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=676f8_Wendy_s.JPG You might be able to do something with this. Then you wouldn't have to wait for those spike things. I am glad to see that you are going to come back for YI1 and Yellow Palace later, that had always irked me. These pictures were for me and a friend at SDA to discuss SMW, and were created a while ago. Another thing I have been thinking about since I saw Mario swim through a wall by grabbing an item. http://img108.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc264&image=4f6c7_FOI2_both_exit.JPG If this is possible there are probably other applications. If any of these types of possibilities have been mentioned in the SDW thread, sorry I don't read it. Another thing, in YI2 the 10:36 run has the 2 one-ups in the very beginning. I don't know what this does to frame-count (although I do know it would decrease your points) but it is possible to get 5 one-ups using that first shell. That is what I do in my small mario run I am working on for SDA. Again, if you knew this I am sorry, just trying to help. Although it might not "look as cool" or however you would rate whether or not to put it in because then you couldn't use the shell to kill all those moles and football players. Thanks to Stefan Mahrla for the level maps.

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Posted: 1/18/2006 1:24 AM

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Fabian

Former player

Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711

That's like the best response I've ever seen in any thread about anything. Thank you very much jimsfriend. I'll comment on the images individually: 1. This one I have already thought of. 2. I don't think passing through slopes like these is possible. If someone made an smv showing it I'd gladly be proven wrong though. 3. This one I have already thought of. 4. When I did Crystal Cavern 1 in our SDW movie I experimented a bit with lava, with results you'll be happy to hear about. You can indeed fly under lava, and another cool thing is that you can fly up to the "lower edge" of the lava, and go into swimming mode, in the lava, without dying. You can only swim in the lower parts of the lava pool though, if you go to high the game catches you and you die. Not useful of course for any speedrun purposes but cool to know. I should have an old .smv of that (that whole level was discarded when it was pointed out to me that I was taking a route about 60 billion times slower than the correct one. Great job by me), I'll see if I can find it and edit this with the link. Edit: Bah, I hadn't saved it, so I made this instead (it's for Super Demo World btw, not SMW). 5. Fantastic! I haven't thought of this before, and I probably would've missed it, so this is great. I'm not sure when the earliest moment you can return to the ground is. If you fall quickly enough to be able to reach the middle route in that last labyrinth section (where the green shell is) without hitting the wall (while ducking), you can fly up on the ground and start hopping any time after the solid wall just after the two yellow blocks, or at least after the 5 spike guys I don't remember the name of. Otherwise you can do it just before the goal post, killing the chuck in the process. 6/7. This one I don't fully understand. From where do you run up to flying speed? I think this should work, what I'm not sure of is why it would be possible to fly under box 2 but not box 4. 8. This one I don't understand at all. Unless I'm misunderstanding, you're passing through the slope without flying? I also don't get what "DEAD" means in this context. It should also be possible to do this without beetle, although that might be slower. All-in-all about images 6-8, this will take some more experimentation I think. 9. I just realized that some of the things I've said so far can be disregarded. You can't fly up through these walls/grounds while flying underneath the level, can you? I mean, except if you do it where there is an angel or something, but not just regularly. Oh well, time will tell. This should work too, thanks a lot. Also, if it does, keyjumping shouldn't be needed, it should be possible to simply fly up to where the keyhole is. 10. If 9 will work this should too. And I think it will. Thanks again. 11. I don't think this will work. I think hanzou experimented a lot with the swimming mechanics in Water World 4, what do you think about it hanzou? About the extra lives in YI2, if I hadn't already done that level, I probably would get 5 lives now. It won't cost any frames, and while I think the other method might be cooler in general, this one hasn't been done in a TAS, and one of my top priorities with this movie is to show off new cool stuff. Maybe this will be in the final version, I'm not sure. Thanks a lot for all this, it was very helpful. I hope to see more of you around here! Now I'll go look for that lava flying smv. Edit: Added a link.

Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk

Posted: 1/18/2006 1:50 AM
(Edited: 1/18/2006 1:56 AM)

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Gorling

Joined: 5/4/2005
Posts: 40
Location: Sweden

If anyone is trying to make a new SMW speedrun I just want you to know that i figured out that you might gain something like 5 lives at YI2 without any loss of speed. Basically you grab the shell, jump up, drop the shell (down+release y) then land so that you knock it away. You then follow the shell and watch as you gain some lives by the few enemies along the way. This prolly won't slow you down and would be fun to watch. EDIT: Sorry for repeating jimsfriends by the word. Also sorry Fabian if i already told this to you about a month ago or whenever the thought struck me.

Posted: 1/18/2006 1:52 AM

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Fabian

Former player

Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711

Hi Gorling, Welcome to 30 minutes ago. This is old news. Yours truly, Fabian Serious response: Read the end of jimsfriends post.

Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk

Posted: 1/18/2006 2:14 AM

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jimsfriend

Former player

Joined: 1/17/2006
Posts: 775
Location: Deign

1. Just mentioned it because it wasn't in the current run. 2. Didn't think this was possible. 3. Figures. 4. I had hoped the lava acted like gray matter. Never thought it would act like water... 5. I don't know what you just said... but I know beating the level this way should work. 6/7/8 comes later 9.

can't fly up through these walls/grounds while flying underneath the level, can you

Yes you can, unless the rom is different from the console, which from what I undersand it shouldn't be. The game does not recognize the underneath side of a floor as a cieling, but it does recognize the above part of the cieling as a floor. I hope you can make sense of that. But keyjumping looks cool :( 10. Wendy trick was always too hard for me. 11. I didn't think this would work, but who knows. Maybe we will get lucky. You will see more of me here as long as SMW is being done. SMV's don't help me though I have no rom and don't really plan on getting one. Consequently all my help will come from explanations and pictures on paint... unless things change. Now about 6/7/8 6 first: Well... obviously you will optimize this, but start on the question blocks. The buzzy beetle should be dead (or at least out of the way). Run left down the slope and partway into the water, jump up a little turn right and fly towards the slope again. Fly through it. If I can do it on console, which I did, then surely it can be done on rom. Under box 2 but not box 4 because (if there are extensions, hard to tell) then going under them would mean Mario had to be on the downward part of his flight pattern. Under box 2 this is plausible. Under box 4 the sides of that gray matter are too close together so you could not be at a down on both of them afaik. Maybe there is some frame-by-frame trick you could do to allow it. Or maybe there are no extensions. I think this covers picture 7 also. The hard part on this for me is getting down beneath the sloped part of the water. I will post a picture to explain. http://img128.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc238&image=146ee_VD2_TAS_help.JPG I hope this clears things up. 8: Dead means that particular buzzy beetle is dead because he was in my way. Step on the one that says "Bring him" and put him on the slope. Get a p-run and fly through the slope while picking him up. Then turn around and jump down that hole in the gray matter to the left, bounce off of him up to the water. Hehe @Gorling.

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Posted: 1/18/2006 2:25 AM

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Fabian

Former player

Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711

Thanks again for your clarifications, it's much clearer now. About 6/7/8, I think this will work well, with frame advance anything's possible. Stuff like losing forward momentum and regaining it later while flying is almost impossible on console, but this should be no problem to do when I get there.

Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk

Posted: 1/18/2006 2:39 AM
(Edited: 1/18/2006 10:32 PM)

Post subject: Proposing a SMW (or SDW:TLC) TASs w/o using feather/cape

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m.r.bob

Joined: 12/30/2005
Posts: 57

Hello, I'm a big fan of TASs, especially Mario ones, and more particularly super Mario world TASs. I've seen all of the super Mario world, and super demo world TLC TASs, and as amazing as they are, I've noticed a point where the movie slows down, during levels where it's possible for the speed runner to simply fly over. Of course the speed runner tries to make these moments as entertaining as possible by bumping in to a bunch of people, but they still end up simply flying over most of the hazards. It would be fascinating if someone were to attempt to do a speed run without ever getting the feather/cape, not only would this require Mario to really get down and do all those amazing jumps and dodges we love so very very much, but it would make pathing much more complicated, as some of the the entrances to starword and secret paths wouldn't be easily accessible. I'm not quite sure yet how Yoshi wings would affect this, and whether or not they should be restricted to. So what do you people think of this idea? Would it be permissible as a separate record in the same way warps and no warps runs are separated? Is anyone willing to try such a thing? (Perhaps this could be the first speed run to utilize double Yoshi jumps for getting to high places.) Added from later post for clarification: My original intention was for this to be a as fast as possible run (as few exits as possible without using the cape). A 120 exit version would be interesting, but a shorter version should be tried first to see if it's really worth putting all that time and effort into a 120 exit version.

Posted: 1/18/2006 2:46 AM

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jimsfriend

Former player

Joined: 1/17/2006
Posts: 775
Location: Deign

You said you are on DP1 and following VIPer7's route. I was just wondering (this has probably been thought of) could you skip the cape in DP1 and get it after the green switch palace and your second time through DP2, which is a sidescroller. I don't know how much time you gain/lose from flying in DP1, so maybe this is a bad idea. However, if you wanted to know which castle getting the green switch palace would mess with, I think you are looking for catle 3. Especially if you are in flight. I don't really remember the overworld route you chose though, it's been a while since I saw it. No response in over an hour, I think I'm going to go into withdrawal.

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Posted: 1/18/2006 2:54 AM

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jimsfriend

Former player

Joined: 1/17/2006
Posts: 775
Location: Deign

For SMW, right off the top of my head Donut Ghost House Secret Exit can't be done without a cape. Unless you uncover something really really wierd.

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Posted: 1/18/2006 7:11 AM

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JXQ

Experienced player (750)

Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132

I actually considered doing this for Super Mario World before I got involved in the SDW-120 run, for the same reasons - the cape gets boring after a while. The reason I abandoned this project is because of the discovery of the hopping glitch being slightly faster than running. With SMW (I assume 96-exit run), I found that the route is changed a bit and a Blue Yoshi comes into play quite a lot if some levels still want to be fast, Forest Secret Area and Tubular for example. And no, you can't get to the Top Secret Area, so it would really be a 95-exit run. With SDW (assuming 120-exit), there are a lot of exits that just aren't accessible with the cape. Misty Castle secret, Sky World 3 secret are two I think of, but I'm almost positive there are more. And the only Blue Yoshi is after Big Boo's Tower, which needs completion of Boo World 6, which requires a cape. I think that much of the game would end up being not explored. If anyone wants to try SMW-95, I've got some notes about the levels as to Yoshi positions, routes, etc. I'd be glad to share, just let me know.

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 1/18/2006 7:37 AM

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JXQ

Experienced player (750)

Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132

jimsfriend wrote:

I don't know how much time you gain/lose from flying in DP1, so maybe this is a bad idea.

Doing the GSP on the second time through will mean that DP2 will be saved for later as well. Even if it wasn't, it doesn't take much time to grab the feather at the beginning of DP1 and flying is surprisingly faster than running. I still haven't looked at the current run but I'll post anything here I think of that you haven't already covered in your essay complete with pictures that write in paint with the draw tool (which always makes me happy).

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 1/18/2006 12:28 PM

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SXL

Joined: 2/7/2005
Posts: 571

yeah, cape is boring, especially when the movie is long and the cape is used too often. that's sad, because the parts without it look fantastic. couldn't we set a new objective which would sounds like "uses cape/feather as less as possible" ?

I never sleep, 'cause sleep is the cousin of death - NAS

Posted: 1/18/2006 12:43 PM

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Dromiceius

Joined: 10/3/2005
Posts: 1332

couldn't we set a new objective which would sounds like "uses cape/feather as less as possible" ?

I think it would be simplest to say "sacrifices speed for entertainment" and leave it up to the movie maker to decide what constitutes entertainment.

Posted: 1/18/2006 2:52 PM

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daniayaw

Former player

Joined: 7/29/2005
Posts: 459
Location: Brazil

aims for entertainment

<small>My big signature was cleared by admin; i should read <a href="http://tasvideos.org/ForumRules.html">forum rules</a>. But... who does?</small>

Posted: 1/18/2006 3:29 PM

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JXQ

Experienced player (750)

Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132

Or: 1) Does not collect any feathers 2) Aims for fastest time (so long as first goal is not compromised)

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 1/18/2006 7:16 PM

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Inzult

Active player (422)

Joined: 9/27/2004
Posts: 650
Location: Canada

JXQ wrote:

1) Does not collect any feathers 2) Aims for fastest time (so long as first goal is not compromised)

I was thinking that the whole time I was reading the thread, but that would just lead to an 11-exit run. Perhaps also no star roads should be taken? I would watch that video.

Posted: 1/18/2006 7:30 PM

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JXQ

Experienced player (750)

Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132

Inzult wrote:

Perhaps also no star roads should be taken? I would watch that video.

Yeah, I should have put that between the two goals: 1) Does not collect feathers 2) Completes all possible exits 3) Aims for fastest time Technically, it wouldn't be 11-exits. You need the GSP to get the secret exit in DP1 without a cape, and you probably need the RSP to get the secret exit in SW4 without a cape.

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 1/18/2006 8:04 PM

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SpiDeY

Joined: 11/29/2005
Posts: 317
Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil

JXQ wrote:

Inzult wrote:
Perhaps also no star roads should be taken? I would watch that video.
Yeah, I should have put that between the two goals: 1) Does not collect feathers 2) Completes all possible exits 3) Aims for fastest time Technically, it wouldn't be 11-exits. You need the GSP to get the secret exit in DP1 without a cape, and you probably need the RSP to get the secret exit in SW4 without a cape.

I think he meant: 1) Does not collect feathers 2) Does not use warps (such as the Star Road) 3) Aims for fastest time

Posted: 1/18/2006 8:08 PM

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Fabian

Former player

Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711

Funny you should mention that JXQ because I've been sitting here an hour trying to reach that stupid god awful platform in Star World 4 without using Yoshi and with no switch palaces, and with small mario. You can finish the level with the help of Yoshi (to jump off of, not using to fly), but I've been unsucessful with no aid whatsoever and am slowly going insane. Stupid game. And the key in DP1 is reachable simply by jumping off Yoshi too, isn't it?

Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk

Posted: 1/18/2006 8:20 PM

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JXQ

Experienced player (750)

Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132

The only crazy idea I had was to throw a shell from the right side down there, and hope it will land on the platform, hit the key block and bounce back, then you can fall down there to bounce off of it. It's a longshot.

Fabian wrote:

And the key in DP1 is reachable simply by jumping off Yoshi too, isn't it?

Yep, forgot about that. So what are you trying this for anyway? Will it be somewhere in your 96-run? Because I think you'll have the RSP by the time you get to this level.

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 1/18/2006 8:25 PM

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Fabian

Former player

Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711

No actually I was reading about jimsfriend's small mario run on SDA and they had been unable to finish this level without going to a switch palace first. So I wanted to try just for fun. It's not useful for his run though because he's not allowed to ride a Yoshi at any time. Plus it's basically frame perfect so it wouldn't be possible to do in a console run anyway. Edit: Your idea with the shell bouncing on the right is basically what I've been trying in order to reach the platform without Yoshi's help. Something like this. Of course, if this method worked there would be no shell left to get the key. If you could double grab shells it might be doable, I don't know.

Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk