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Posted: 9/20/2006 1:27 AM
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Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Speedy TAS of 2009
I know I had fun (and continue to have fun) doing my DCK2 102%. It turned out good for me that no one else is competing for a completion of the run and that I improved to Sami/Arne calibre. Continue to experiment with SMW, I had to play with TASing for a month before I even started my first version of DCK2. and since then, another 2 months have gone by, and it's not until about 1 month ago that my playing became publishable quality. See a vid posted by bkDJ of a comparison between my first work and my current work in .mkv format. A few tips: This is a TAS website. Use the tools at your disposal. I played primarily at 12-24% speeds when first TASing, and since then I have become a Frame Advance convert. FA is simply beautiful- you can create savestates at any time without disrupting your playing, nothing happens until you push a button and it simply makes playing extremely precise. I exclusively use FA, you'll find it very helpful too. Play close attention to work done before you by other people. I studied three people immensely- Sami, Arne_the_great, and the runner on Speed Demos Archive who did 102% single segment. It will teach you how to play the game, by studying the physics of what they do and how, and can help you plan your run, find places to improve, and get the feel of what speed running for that particular game is like. Rerecords are your friend- use 'em. Since with emulators you can undo any mistakes, make sure there never is any mistakes. you can also test what is the first possible frame to do something (frame advance) and also experiment with different routes. I've also found the tips and guides to making TASes on this website helpful- i.e. be entertaining, be fast, try the impossible, etc. Hope this helps- you may find another game that isn't published that you like, keep searching there's a list of games not done or you may find one yourself but continue to TAS with SMW until you get a feel not nescissarily for the game (because what's done is done, I don't think it can be improved for a long while) but for TASing in general.
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Posted: 9/20/2006 7:28 PM
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mrz
Former player
Joined: 8/24/2006
Posts: 119
Location: New York City
thanks comicalflop. also i finnaly got a 291, thats only 1 second behind, just needed a few for frame for 292, im going to redo it today. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/2028/Star%20World%201%20v2.smv
Posted: 9/22/2006 1:31 AM
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thegreginator
Former player
Joined: 6/4/2006
Posts: 267
Location: CO
Quick update for anyone interested in the progress of the small-only SMW TAS being done by skamastaG and myself: DP1 key is almost done, all that remains is the shell jump up to the key. 15,800 frames, 7526 rerecords, 0.5 rerecords per frame. Since a large part of the beginning is cutscenes, the rerecord/frame count will likely be even higher as the game progresses. ;) Other SMW TASers, just out of curiosity, what have your rerecord/frame counts been on average?
Posted: 9/22/2006 2:10 AM
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Fabian
Former player
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711
~138k for SDW which was like 400k frames? ~94k for SMW which was ~300k? Worth noting is also that SDW and half of SMW was without memory watching, which makes it SO MUCH more difficult. So it would take even less rerecords to redo them, for sure.
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
Posted: 9/22/2006 2:24 AM
(Edited: 9/22/2006 2:28 AM)
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JXQ
Experienced player (750)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
NES TAS of 2008 Speedy TAS of 2008 SNES TASer of 2007 TAS of 2007 SNES TAS of 2007 Funny TAS of 2007
The hop glitch and 6/5 take much more rerecording than flying, also. Edit: The best comparison SMW run I've done is the 11-exit run, since I was using memory-watch at the time, and I had 26314 rerecords for 37917 frames, which is around 40 rerecords per second of play.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Posted: 9/22/2006 2:26 AM
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Fabian
Former player
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711
JXQ wrote:
The hop glitch and 6/5 take much more rerecording than flying, also.
Definitely, especially that pesky 6/5. Hopping isn't so bad with memory watching, I think.
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
Posted: 9/22/2006 2:36 AM
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thegreginator
Former player
Joined: 6/4/2006
Posts: 267
Location: CO
Yeah. It has recently occured to me that the majority of the levels in this run will use 6/5. As if I didnt hate it enough already.
Posted: 9/23/2006 2:53 PM
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Fabian
Former player
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711
Yoshi's Island 2 freaks, Neat way to get three 1-ups without slowdown. Enjoy!
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
Posted: 9/23/2006 4:55 PM
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jimsfriend
Former player
Joined: 1/17/2006
Posts: 775
Location: Deign
That was pretty cool.
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Posted: 9/23/2006 7:47 PM
Post subject: New(?) trick
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Arne_the_great
Former player
Joined: 12/17/2005
Posts: 77
Location: Bjurholm, Sweden
I think this trick will be useful and can be used at a lot other places: Bowser's castle Donut Secret house This trick can of course be done faster than these examples but they show the principle. It's easy to perform so test it out yourself. And this is something with the same trick but with a weird death: Death bug I think this trick will at least save time in the first room in bowser's castle. Enjoy.
Posted: 9/23/2006 9:12 PM
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DK64_MASTER
Joined: 10/24/2005
Posts: 1080
Location: San Jose
Wow, those glitches are cool. They will definitely help, I think :).
<agill> banana banana banana terracotta pie! <Shinryuu> ho-la terracotta barba-ra anal-o~
Posted: 9/23/2006 9:21 PM
(Edited: 9/23/2006 9:25 PM)
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thegreginator
Former player
Joined: 6/4/2006
Posts: 267
Location: CO
Wow Arne that was incredible! I cant believe no ones ever thought of doing that before. Awesome trick. Now there is actually a significant improvement to the 11-exit run. Flying through the first room (door 2) in Bowser's Castle could save a noticeable amount of time. In the second room (door 5), if you were able to squeeze past the last spike, it would be a huge timesaver because you wouldnt need to wait for the spikes to rise, you wouldnt need to have the game paused when you are hit, you wouldnt need to have the game paused to collect the backup cape, and you wouldnt need to slow down to get this second cape. Doing this trick in the second room of DSH would save some time as well. Also, the spinjump off the flame in Castle #1 could save a few frames as well as two missed corner boosts in DS1. Also, maybe a frame or two saved by using 6/5 over 8/5. I have talked this over with skamastaG, and we have officially decided to put the small-only run on hold and start working on a NEW 11-EXIT RUN. What are your thoughts on this everyone? Are there any other possible improvements you can think of before we start? It may not be a huge improment over JXQ's run, so would it still be worth doing? The SMB1 run has been obsoleted by one frame, so I dont really see any problem in obsoleting JXQ's run by 1-2 seconds (maybe). JXQ's run is incredible, but there are plenty of unused tricks to be shown off, as well as the timesavers discussed above. What do you think? I am very excitied to start working on this.
Posted: 9/23/2006 9:24 PM
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jimsfriend
Former player
Joined: 1/17/2006
Posts: 775
Location: Deign
Have fun with fadeout lag.
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Posted: 9/23/2006 9:29 PM
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thegreginator
Former player
Joined: 6/4/2006
Posts: 267
Location: CO
Yeah the fadeout lag will probably be the hardest part of this run. As far as I understand, every digit in your score over 4 adds to the fadeout lag, so you want to manipulate your score to have as many digits under 4 as possible. Is this correct? Is there anything more to it than this? Do coins, gate points, sprites, etc also affect fadeout lag? And what are the differences between gate fadeout lag, key fadeout lag, and castle/ghost house fadeout lag?
Posted: 9/23/2006 9:31 PM
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Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Speedy TAS of 2009
you should totally go for it. if those time savers are as big as you suggest, and the 8/5 beats the 6/5 by a few frames and if you beat it by 1-2 seconds, that yes go for it. JQX beat V1per7's by 4 seconds, so an improvement of an improvement can be done with 1-2 seconds, if you're that good. A few tips: Use frame Advance exclusively. Since you're trying to obsolete a great run, make sure EVERYTHING is precise. create many "checkpoints"- the frame # at which JQX does something, to compare don't be afraid to copy most input in non improvable areas to ensure no frames are lost check even minuscule spots where 1-5 frames can be saved- this will help overall JQX's run is entertaining- Fabian's 120 even more so. In the spots to show off (Yoshi's Island 1, Ghost House, Bowser fight) try to be even more entertaining. try to juggle two mushrooms for the entire bowser fight, see if it's possible to have a mecha-koopa being held directly inside bowser to ensure he's hit on the first possible frame, and good luck! Edit: Direct quote from SMW tricks page: "Random" fadeout lag Although still not completely understood, some things are now known about this strange property. There are three different kinds of fadeout. The first is after completing a normal level, when the black circle closes around Mario. The amount of lag here is based on Mario's score. The general pattern seems to be: "The more digits below 4, the less lag". By poking zero into the 2-byte RAM address 7E0F34, the score will be zero, and the lag given is the best that the particular exit can get. The second is after completing a boss level. This is still score dependent, but a pattern hasn't been found, although it is definitely similar to that of normal exits. The third is a secret exit. This depends on two things: Mario's score, and the sprites on-screen (especially the ones around the edge of the keyhole at its largest position).
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Posted: 9/23/2006 10:08 PM
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DK64_MASTER
Joined: 10/24/2005
Posts: 1080
Location: San Jose
Greg, I say go for it. If anything, it should give you practice for your "small only run", and vice versa. Are you going to remain small until DP1? Which means you already have finished the first world, right? Unless you have to adjust for fadeout lag...
<agill> banana banana banana terracotta pie! <Shinryuu> ho-la terracotta barba-ra anal-o~
Posted: 9/23/2006 10:15 PM
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thegreginator
Former player
Joined: 6/4/2006
Posts: 267
Location: CO
Yeah I'd remain small until DP1. I will be redoing it all though because of fadeout lag. I tried squeezing under that last spike in Bowser's Castle, and its not looking too good. Someone else can try it though, dont take my word for it. skamastaG has suggested that maybe taking door 7 would be beneficial, since you can use the flight glitch to start flying immediately in the hallway, immediately once in door 7, and immediately in the dark room. So essentially you never lose flight throughout Bowser's Castle.
Posted: 9/23/2006 10:19 PM
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DK64_MASTER
Joined: 10/24/2005
Posts: 1080
Location: San Jose
Well, then atleast you'll have some hightly optimized jump off point to work on your small only TAS when you complete the 16 exit run. :)
<agill> banana banana banana terracotta pie! <Shinryuu> ho-la terracotta barba-ra anal-o~
Posted: 9/24/2006 12:22 AM
(Edited: 9/24/2006 2:52 AM)
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skamastaG
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Joined: 6/25/2006
Posts: 138
Location: Fort Collins, CO
While swimming is it possible to ever get a corner boost on the bottom left side of walls or do they only work on the bottom right corners? In the 11 and 96 runs, lots of bottom left corners are missed so I was just wondering if I should try and swim through them or just not worry about them because they never give boosts. Also, even if mario jerks forward when hitting a bottom left corner with an item does he not get a boost? Is the reason you can't get a boost with an item because only the bottom right corners gives boosts and you can't swim through the right corners when you have an item? EDIT: Only right corners give boosts. Now I understand why you can't get a boost when holding an item.
Posted: 9/24/2006 1:12 AM
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JXQ
Experienced player (750)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
NES TAS of 2008 Speedy TAS of 2008 SNES TASer of 2007 TAS of 2007 SNES TAS of 2007 Funny TAS of 2007
Very nice idea Arne! I really hope that going in Door #7 is faster (or better yet, Door #5 skipping all the spikes!)
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Posted: 9/24/2006 5:02 AM
(Edited: 9/24/2006 5:04 AM)
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jimsfriend
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Joined: 1/17/2006
Posts: 775
Location: Deign
Foi3 small. Edit @ Fabian below. And sloppy too.
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Posted: 9/24/2006 5:04 AM
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Fabian
Former player
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711
Very nice
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
Posted: 9/24/2006 5:23 AM
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JXQ
Experienced player (750)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
NES TAS of 2008 Speedy TAS of 2008 SNES TASer of 2007 TAS of 2007 SNES TAS of 2007 Funny TAS of 2007
Alrighty New Front Door - 111 frames faster New Donut Secret House - 43 frames slower! + the best Big Boo fight ever Edit: taking Door 7 was tested, and it is 36 frames slower than Door 5. Skipping the feather in SW4 saves only 26 frames so Door 5 is still the fastest. If that last spike could be passed...
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Posted: 9/24/2006 7:38 AM
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skamastaG
Former player
Joined: 6/25/2006
Posts: 138
Location: Fort Collins, CO
On DGH in the second room, do you think it is faster to spin jump off of ghosts onto the platform or to jump through the stairs and take the vine up? I am assuming the ghost spinjumping is faster than jumping through the stairs. You dont have pmeter before the stairs so it might take a long time to jump through. So if the ghost route is faster than how do you think I should go about getting up there in the least amount of time as possible?
Posted: 9/24/2006 7:47 AM
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spockybiemmichab
Joined: 3/17/2006
Posts: 243
Location: Back to good old Germany
JXQ wrote:
43 frames slower! + the best Big Boo fight ever
I really hate it when I come back home drunk and a reliable poster like JXQ plays a fool on me. Yeah, I'm pretty sure, I don't like it...
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