Oh, you can never know, but you can think you know.
If you think you can know, then it's because you believe in something in the first place, but on what basis?
Oh, you seem to be a follower of the "the entire universe might just be an illusion and nothing really exists at all, but you can never know" principle. I'm not willing to go further that path.
(I'm sorry if I skipped an intermediate step or two. I'll explain. You're in effect trying to refute subjective experiences. But subjective experiences are all that we have. Our entire perception of the world is just a subjective experience through our senses. By making subjective experiences in general an issue of doubt, you're in effect doubting the existence of the whole universe.)
I don't think dat Kuwaga would say that he isn't sure that you (Bisqwit) exist. If he posts something, he gets a response. He could go and visit you, and directly talk to you, and even touch you. I think that's enough for him to objectively conclude that you exist. I think his point is that the same cannot be said about God.
Joined: 4/25/2004
Posts: 615
Location: The Netherlands
To be honest, I'm not quite sure how to respond.
First of all, I did not mean to offend anyone. I feel rather strongly about atheismish, which is why I warned about that beforehand. It's also why I usually try to avoid these discussions and why I didn't want to go deeper into it.
I really did feel disappointed though. Especially after your remarks about how you thought some country won some war because of God. That kind of struck a nerve, I guess, because that's something that goes into everything I "believe" and (I feel strongly that) it gives false hopes when relying on such things. I see it as somebody thinking he's invincable because God protects him or (maybe a bit far fetched) a terrorist doing what he does because he thinks there'll be 37.5 virgins waiting for him.
Now believing in God isn't a bad thing per se. It can give a person great confidence and all that other stuff. But some drunk in a bar once told me people need to believe in something, anything. I think he was right. And I don't mind that at all, as long as you keep it to yourself. However, acting on something God supposively said or made you do is something different entirely with respect to believing in something.
The reason I posted what I did was because I was trying to make sure you've checked your actions with some other persons. Real persons (so not over IRC).
You know, it's like with Idols. Ever seen it? Ever seen people perform extremely awefull? You must've because they'll only send out the worst and the best of the auditions. Ever wondered if those worst contestants were ever warned by their friends that they'd make a complete ass on tv? This is similar. No I'm not saying you'll fail at whatever you're gonna do, I'm (hopefully obviously) refering to the warning part.
Like I said, as long as you're happy (and not wreaking havock in the process ;)) that's all that matters. But giving up something like TASVideos just doesn't seemed to be right course to me to that goal. And sure, I hardly know you, certainly not personally, but still...
I hope that cleared things up.
I don't think dat Kuwaga would say that he isn't sure that you (Bisqwit) exist. If he posts something, he gets a response. He could go and visit you, and directly talk to you, and even touch you. I think that's enough for him to objectively conclude that you exist.
I disagree on the underlined notion, but as I said, I don't wish to go further that road.
> I think his point is that the same cannot be said about God.
I don't feel like my relationship with God is one-directional at all.
qFox: Thanks for your concern.
Yes, I'm a follower of the "believe in as little as possible" principle. A belief is always a guess. If there's only two options, there's a 50% probability of it being wrong. If there's more, believing means that you're most likely wrong. I can't deal with that, so I'm not a fan of believing.
However, it's part of the human nature, so I cannot not believe in anything, but I try to keep it at a minimum. I don't know if there's gravity, but in everyday life I act as if there was. I guess that's a form of unconscious believing and it's inevitable.
The bad part of all this is that it makes me feel very insecure and over-reflective all day.
qFox wrote:
I really did feel disappointed though. Especially after your remarks about how you thought some country won some war because of God. That kind of struck a nerve, I guess, because that's something that goes into everything I "believe" and (I feel strongly that) it gives false hopes when relying on such things. I see it as somebody thinking he's invincable because God protects him or (maybe a bit far fetched) a terrorist doing what he does because he thinks there'll be 37.5 virgins waiting for him.
That's part of what I meant by being abused. People who easily believe in stuff they're told are more easily abused.
Joined: 4/25/2004
Posts: 615
Location: The Netherlands
PS: "Oh, you seem to be a follower of the "the entire universe might just be an illusion and nothing really exists at all, but you can never know" principle."
I am and it's called scepticism. Academic scepticism to be more precisely. "We" don't think you can have "certain truths" at all but we'll settle for what we think is most likely (for else we couldn't live in this world). Well, it's a little more complicated but that's what it comes down to :)
implication that he was leaving what most people percieve him to excel at (programming, coding) for something religion based
Intellectual pursuits the kind of that is programming are a filler in the life, entertainment among other kinds of entertainment, and sometimes hard work. However, ultimately it is a complete waste of time.
God's Son spoke this allegory, paraphrased:
There was a rich man, a farmer, and his crop produced so much that he had excess, so he built bigger silos to hold it all, and he was joyful for he had goods for many years, and he saw he could just sleep, eat, drink and rejoice the coming years.
But God told him, 'You fool, this night your soul will be claimed; where will end up all that you have acquired?'
Thus happens to those who acquire treasures for themselves, but have no riches at God's place.
And continued, saying:
Don't worry your life, what you should eat or what you should wear. The world beseeches all of this, but your Father in Heaven knows all that you need. Seek the Kingdom of Heaven, and all this will be given to you. Sell what you have, give alms; collect a treasure for you into the Heaven instead. Where your treasure is, there is your heart. Be alarm and await my return, for you don't know when it will happen.
In other words, only things that determine 1) whether you will get to Heaven and 2) the amount of work you have done with God (in effect accumulating that said treasure in Heaven), matters. Anything else is a complete waste of time.
This is not a sacrifice I'm making with sad minds. Programming has left me unsatisfied for quite a long time -- already for a few years I have noticed that if I do this at work and then at home, too, I'll burn out, so I had to choose whether to do it at work or at home. I have to rest, too. Naturally I cannot abandon work, so I had to decrease the amount of programming I do for my hobby.
Of course, sometimes I get a clever idea I just have to try; it is a fascinating intellectual pursuit, that sometimes produces useful results for the world. Depriving myself of trying out that idea would be painful. Well, I'll see what happens to that angle. Most often though, I only get those ideas as a filler for my time; I'm already _seeking_ for that kind of challenges when I get those ideas.
So if I'm voluntarily giving up those "fascinating intellectual pursuits", what am I going to get in return? That's a difficult question. My first thought is, "inexplicable satisfaction that comes from following God's will". I also considered talking about miracles, but that's a moat of fruitless debates so I won't go there.
Hmm, I think the end of my post is supposed to be here:
Joined: 4/25/2004
Posts: 615
Location: The Netherlands
Bisqwit wrote:
Intellectual pursuits the kind of that is programming are a filler in the life, entertainment among other kinds of entertainment, and sometimes hard work. However, ultimately it is a complete waste of time.
I have come to the conclusion that everything in life is useless. You might as well make the best of it. That's why I think the persuit of happiness is the only goal.
Bisqwit wrote:
This is not a sacrifice I'm making with sad minds. Programming has left me unsatisfied for quite a long time ...
Now there's something else. Something I didn't know. And if that is the case, please say so and don't make it look like you're "ditching us" (;)) for your mission.
PS. quoting the bible never works as an argument when talking to atheists :/
This is not a sacrifice I'm making with sad minds. Programming has left me unsatisfied for quite a long time ...
Now there's something else. Something I didn't know. And if that is the case, please say so and don't make it look like you're "ditching us" (;)) for your mission.
Well, whether I enjoy programming or not is irrelevant for the "look like you're 'ditching us'" argument. But I never said "I will leave the community"; I only said "I will quit the administration and the related tasks".
qFox wrote:
PS. quoting the bible never works as an argument when talking to atheists :/
Hence, I was paraphrasing ;)
Sure, I could have said this instead: "ultimately, our body will perish; however, our soul does not perish. What matters is where our soul ends up, with whom, and how do those think of us that are already there. How did you prepare for the eternal life?"
But where's the joy with that when you've already got a nice parallel ready to use? No need to reinvent the wheel just because someone is suffering of the NIH syndrome.
Hmm, I think the end of my post is supposed to be here:
Oh, I forgot I was supposed to write about the "excel at" tangent.
Well, I'm sure the talents I have will be put into use. Things such as analytic thinking, for instance.
However, God likes to pick people who have the least number of useful traits in the eyes of the world, so as to make it certain that the people who do things in his name, aren't doing them in their own power, but due to the power invested in them by God; and it doesn't look like anything I have is a reason to that God calls me really.
Which makes me all the happier, because that way, things I do for God are things I do with his power and not my own; and all that is why considering God to be a figment of my own beliefs, as suggested by Kazuma, is an absurd thought to me.
Heh, enough of weird writing for today. Time for a new UTC day, and time for my sleep.
Joined: 11/27/2004
Posts: 688
Location: WA State, USA
Bisqwit wrote:
[Ritualized religion] is a curse because you may think that you're on a good path, but you have never met God, or you have abandoned him in favor of easy-to-follow rituals.
I both simultaneously agree and disagree with you right here. While I do think that rituals (in some form) are requisite to developing some degree of faith, I can help but think that some of the people I know from church and such (myself included) are just doing it all out of habit and not because of some deeper conviction.
I just feels rather disconcerting. :/
Bisqwit wrote:
Be alarm and await my return
Nitpicking: It should be "alert," not "alarm."
Bisqwit wrote:
as suggested by Kazuma
More nitpicking: His name is Kuwaga.
Nach wrote:
I also used to wake up every morning, open my curtains, and see the twin towers. And then one day, wasn't able to anymore, I'll never forget that.
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
Bisqwit wrote:
Intellectual pursuits the kind of that is programming are a filler in the life, entertainment among other kinds of entertainment, and sometimes hard work. However, ultimately it is a complete waste of time.
I suppose this view depends on your view of the afterlife; if you believe strongly in one, I suppose much of this life does seem to be pointless. However, if you're more unsure (as I am), then the added flavor of life (entertainment, love, a fulfilling career, thirst for knowledge, fun, etc), is what makes life full and worth living.
I have come to the conclusion that everything in life is useless. You might as well make the best of it. That's why I think the persuit of happiness is the only goal.
I agree. Logic is a system that doesn't work well without input from the outside. You cannot deduce goals just from logical thinking alone. Logic is a tool. Out goals aren't defined by our conscious mind. "Das Ich ist nicht Herr im eigenen Haus." - Freud.
We have to accept that we're human and our goal is happiness. Logic can help us reach this happiness if used properly. Solidarity is something that happens naturally. If you are already happy, you can make others happy as well. And this will make you even happier.
If you think logic is more important than happiness, chances are you will be unhappy and experience huge personal conflicts.
What is it you're hoping to find which you do not already have?
I'm not "hoping to find" anything.
It's not a quest that I am on, hoping to find something that I have not yet found.
I have already found him; now I'm just following his voice. (Well, not an actual voice, but still, guidance. I just used the word "voice", because it reminds the reader of this; and this.)
I'm not very good with those tzsch things. If it were me, I'd say Nietše instead ― or rather, Niitše. But it's not up to me.
In any case, I apologize offending any heir or fan of Nietzsche present.
Joined: 4/25/2004
Posts: 615
Location: The Netherlands
:p
Btw; with ditching us I was kind of referring to the mayhem which I think this site will be in when control is transferred to somebody else. But that's just my two pessimistic cents about that...
Btw; with ditching us I was kind of referring to the mayhem which I think this site will be in when control is transferred to somebody else. But that's just my two pessimistic cents about that...
Ah, I understand your concern now. Thanks :)
That's why it is important that we do not rush things. I wrote "desired<...> by the summer 2009", not "must<...> by the next week" :P
:p
Btw; with ditching us I was kind of referring to the mayhem which I think this site will be in when control is transferred to somebody else. But that's just my two pessimistic cents about that...
Transitions should never be done in a instant. Could you imagine if you suddenly became president or were put in charge of a large corporation. Usually the person will spend several months, sometimes years. Teaching basic day to day stuff as well values they may want there successfor to follow. My only hope is that Bisqwit won't play favourites here. Still I'm a little unsure how this is all gonna pan out.
About this whole faith thing Bisqwit seems to have. I'll throw in my two cents.
1. Life doesn't actually have much meaning, unless you consider it enjoyment or happiness. We're no different from other living things. We evolved from little monkeys swinging on trees. It's just that humans seem to arrogantly class themselves as a supreme race. Many seem to wonder how this is possible, hence turn to god. One day, we like other creatures will become extinct.
2. I don't tend to think much about the afterlife. I remember having visions about the dying moments I had in a previous life. So I stick with the re-incarnation theory. Although this doesn't mean I need to follow what a book once said 3000 years ago.
The meaning of life, as made obvious by such things as just about every living thing ever and evolution, is to reproduce.
The meaning of life isn't very helpful. It's not going to solve anything. Stop looking for it!
As for Bisqwit... I guess you could have chosen an even worse religion. :p
"No one needs money, and you should not try to earn it, but, err, if you do.. then give it to other people. That's kinda makes them richer, therefore to some extent making them less willing to serve me, so you kinda damn them by doing so, but, eh, it's for a good purpose, right?"
'You fool, this night your soul will be claimed; where will end up all that you have acquired?'
"Well, maybe I didn't plan for my wife and children to die of starvation a week after I pass away, you know? No? Alright, guess not, I'll go get a torch."
Bisqwit wrote:
"What matters is where our soul ends up, with whom"
Apparently with some prick that doesn't want me to have fun.
It would be so much easier to be religious if the source material often wasn't so easy to poke fun of.
Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!
LagDotCom wrote:
The meaning of life, as made obvious by such things as just about every living thing ever and evolution, is to reproduce.
How did posting that help you reproduce, LagDotCom? Or did you post it for another reason?
What would you tell to the unfortunate people who (for a reason or another) can't reproduce?
I would be genuinely interested in your answers.
Yeah, I posted it precisely because relying on some kind of 'meaning of life' to solve all your problems is foolhardy. You're free to believe in something 'greater than yourself' if you want, just don't expect it to actually turn out true later.
As for the second question, I would say 'tough luck'. There are plenty of other things you can do other than reproduce, like further human knowledge, improve your own body, etc. None of these things are less important than reproduction, they just don't further evolution and all those other fun things that brought us to this point. Life likes living.
Just because I said it's the meaning of life doesn't mean it's the only thing you should do. Hell, why would you believe me, anyway? I'm just one (youngish) guy, what could I possibly know about life? I'd rather you disagreed with me, that way something actually gets done and I don't have my words treated like gospel.
If that sounded angry, it wasn't meant to be. I just like to be concise.
How did posting that help you reproduce, LagDotCom? Or did you post it for another reason?
The main aim of reproduction is to try to preserve our genes. By posting that, LagDotCom probably has motivated some fellow humans to keep reproducing and thus preserving most of his genes in an indirect way.
Aqfaq wrote:
What would you tell to the unfortunate people who (for a reason or another) can't reproduce?
They can always help other humans to make it easier to reproduce, survive, etc. You know what they say: "have a baby, plant a tree and write a book". So they still have two other options to help keep fellow humans' genes alive throughout time. :P
You're just fucking stupid, everyone hates you, sorry to tell you the truth. no one likes you, you're someone pretentious and TASes only to be on speed game, but don't have any hope, you won't get there.
