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Posted: 10/24/2007 4:50 PM
(Edited: 10/24/2007 5:29 PM)
Post subject: Castlevania Legends
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Tremalkinger
Joined: 10/24/2007
Posts: 23
First post here. I've been a huge fan and avid watcher of TSAs for a long time now, but this is my first project. I was daunted at first by what I assumed would be technical issues (I'm not a computer programmer by any stretch) but I found VisualBoyAdvanced to be very intuitive. I do have one issue, which is that when I pick up the file again, I have to fast forward all the way to the end, then hit 'begin recording here', to pick up where I left off. Am I missing anything? Seems a little clunky. I'm kind of amazed that no one has tried Castlevania Legends. I did a search on the forums, but all I found was a request for it. But I'm not complaining, because running this game is an awful lot of fun. I've finished the first level, and I think its fairly well optimized. There's a few frames lost here and there but I'm satisfied for my first attempt. Actually now that I watch it, the boss looks really sloppy... I'll go back and fix that. Let me know what you think. VBM: http://rapidshare.com/files/64889354/Castlevania_-_Legends__G___S_.vbm.html Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOV6vuWtuUM Edit: Thanks for the heads up Squ4ll-
Posted: 10/24/2007 5:11 PM
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Squ4ll-
Joined: 11/28/2004
Posts: 138
Just a little notice, your not allowed to share roms here on this site.
The best time you have is the time you share with other people.
Posted: 10/24/2007 9:50 PM
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Sir_VG
He/Him
Player (40)
Joined: 10/9/2004
Posts: 1913
Location: Floating Tower
I do have one issue, which is that when I pick up the file again, I have to fast forward all the way to the end, then hit 'begin recording here', to pick up where I left off. Am I missing anything? Seems a little clunky.
Create a save state before you quit, then when you load the movie, load up the save state and continue recording from there. Notes: 1 - Intro text can be skipped. 2 - Map screen can be skipped. 3 - Don't whip while descending, unless you have plenty of room. If you're too low, you'll halt for a few frames when you hit the ground. Whip while ascending. 4 - Every rope in Level 1 can be reached w/o jumping. 5 - Burning mode can be used in a much better spot then the boss. I can beat it only taking 1 hit. 6 - Plenty of other tidbits. The way the level flowed was different between my run and your video, but it could be that you're using GB mode and I used SGB.
Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing
Posted: 10/25/2007 3:03 AM
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Tremalkinger
Joined: 10/24/2007
Posts: 23
1 + 2: I'm not sure why I didn't skip those... I'll make sure to 3 - This I did know. I tried to avoid having the whip out too late, although I see a decent number of times when I screw it up, now looking at the video. On flat terrain, you have to whip a minimum of 12 frames after a short jump, 22 frames after a long jump, although landing at a different height changes this obviously. Rule of thumb is 23 frames before landing, you have to have already whipped or you'll be stuck in landing animation for at least an extra frame. I knew all this, but yet still messed it up quite a few times. I'll be more careful. 4 - I'm pretty sure this is not true, but I'll double check. 5 - You won't believe this, but I've never actually used it on anything but a boss (I've beaten the game on a cartridge back ages ago... borrowed it from a friend). I always assumed for some reason that it increased her damage. I feel pretty silly finding out this isn't true. Darn assumptions... 6 - More criticism is always welcome. This isn't going to be perfect just with me working on it alone, that's for sure. I've already overlooked some pretty obvious stuff, so make sure to kick me into line ^_^
Posted: 10/25/2007 3:36 AM
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Sir_VG
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Player (40)
Joined: 10/9/2004
Posts: 1913
Location: Floating Tower
4 - I'm pretty sure this is not true, but I'll double check.
Watch my recent submission. I think I only had to jump to reach a hanging rope like that once in the entire game, in Stage 2.
Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing
Posted: 10/26/2007 11:59 AM
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Tremalkinger
Joined: 10/24/2007
Posts: 23
You manage to use the extra speed from burning mode to grab the rope that I have to jump to. That's the difference. I've watched through your video and I'm really impressed. I took a lot away from it which will be useful for my run. Some comments of things I noticed if you ever feel like improving it. Whipping while jumping pushes your sprite back slightly, roughly a frame's worth of movement. Therefore, its slightly more advantageous to just jump over enemies instead of killing them if possible, assuming you aren't also getting hearts or something. At ~8500, you stop and crouch to kill a bat which you can just jump over. At ~9600 you get caught slightly on the platform above you while jumping... if you wait until your head is more than halfway past it before jumping, you wont lose any forward speed killing the spearman. And also... I'm not sure if this is useful to you, but... if you look back for a single frame, you can freeze the Giant Skulls in place. If you time it properly, you can get them far enough back so that they despawn with two glances. Glancing back doesn't cost you much in terms of frames, but its still something. The big advantage is in hearts. I'm not sure if its better than what you did, but its something to consider. Keep in mind that the short hop you do to cast spells costs you two frames worth of forward momentum. Not sure how much looking back costs you... Finally, I just wanted to say that I think I'll be doing a run where I don't pick /anything/ up if I can help it. No hearts, no whip powerups, no food, etc. I had the entire first level done this way but I deleted a large section by rewinding while viewing. This has taught me the value of back-ups :P. But doing it again will probably only improve the quality.
Posted: 10/26/2007 12:17 PM
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Sir_VG
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Joined: 10/9/2004
Posts: 1913
Location: Floating Tower
There was one place in Stage 2 that somehow, I managed to hit A on a frame which Sonia couldn't jump, then I pressed UP+B to use the Wind Soul, in which I wasn't hindered at all. I was only able to actually execute it once though. BTW, a good shortcut for you to know is Shift+8. This puts your video in read-only mode (or out of it, if you have it in such). I'll check out the look back theory though. T'will be fun to work on a project with somebody.
Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing
Posted: 10/26/2007 2:06 PM
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Tremalkinger
Joined: 10/24/2007
Posts: 23
Sir VG wrote:
T'will be fun to work on a project with somebody.
Indeed :D Not being allowed to pick anything up certainly makes you think about the game differently. For example, in the first level, the mostly vertical room with the two spearmen at the top... I had to try a bunch of different routes to finish that room with a decent time. You get attacked by various things as you land on platforms, and each platform is covered by a candle, so actually managing to kill the enemies without making the platforms covered in hearts is challenging. This is speculation, but I think the way the game calculates sprite intersection is based on an invisible square around the sprite's total potential positions. You'll notice that you can hit a ghost from a decent number of pixels away from the actual body sometimes, its because the way the ghost wiggles back and forth means the actual box it is contained in has room for both positions, and just hitting where he could be works. I've done some game coding in flash, so I'm familiar with both types of collision detection, and their style requires significantly less processing power, so it makes sense. Unfortunately, that works against me quite a bit in regards to avoiding hearts from candles I might want to break for speed's sake. Since the hearts do a similar wiggle, when you include the spacious box around my sprite, its extremely difficult to avoid picking up a heart once its out, bordering on impossible in many situations. So far I've just been forced to avoid breaking any candles until I'm already past them. This allows for sneaky things like jumping over a ghost who is using a candle for cover, then turning around and killing him before he catches up to me. As a side note... I was looking through your website, and Philosoma run looks really interesting, but the Filefront link gets redirected to the front page. I tried searching but no dice. Any chance I could get ahold of it somehow?
Posted: 10/26/2007 4:30 PM
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Sir_VG
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Player (40)
Joined: 10/9/2004
Posts: 1913
Location: Floating Tower
Probably got deleted, because FileFront loves to delete things when you aren't looking (bastards). Back on topic, on some of the bosses, especially the dragon in Stage 3, hitting them with a Lv 1 whip is gonna be a nightmare, as he has a HUGE box around him (especially behind) where you can take damage. That's why the huge pause before I jump in my run.
Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing
Posted: 10/26/2007 5:25 PM
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Tremalkinger
Joined: 10/24/2007
Posts: 23
Here's an example of the awesome collision detection I was talking about earlier. I'm trying to jump up onto the rightmost platform while killing the bat. I can easily kill the bat, land, then jump up, but combining them is obviously more optimal. However... as you can see, even though the candle is 10 pixels behind my head, I still manage to break it, and collect the heart a few frames later. I don't mind so much struggling with these issues, I'm just worried people are going to think my routes are poorly optimized because of the detours I take. But as you can see, they are sadly needed.
Posted: 10/26/2007 7:15 PM
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Sir_VG
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Player (40)
Joined: 10/9/2004
Posts: 1913
Location: Floating Tower
Whipping while jumping pushes your sprite back slightly, roughly a frame's worth of movement. Therefore, its slightly more advantageous to just jump over enemies instead of killing them if possible, assuming you aren't also getting hearts or something.
I did a retrial of Stage 1.1 and compared my times from my submitted run to using your method. I checked the frame timer when I hit the door. Using your method (jumping over lower flames and hitting the higher ones, jumping over the slugs), I wound up 30 frames behind my run. Therefore, right now I disagree with your theory. Update: Ran it through again, my way. Beat your method by 74 frames, and my prior attempt by 44. Completed Stage 1. Ahead of my cancelled run by 176 frames (based upon when the Wind Soul appears in the lower left).
Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing
Posted: 10/27/2007 1:57 PM
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Tremalkinger
Joined: 10/24/2007
Posts: 23
The reason why I believed that whipping while jumping pushes you back is because sometimes I'll be able to make a jump over a monster if I don't attack, but then if I whip, I'll get hit on the way down. It seemed reasonable, but it's not true. I tried testing it in a vacuum. I started the game autofiring Start and A, then saved during the darkness. I ran flat along the ground until the beginning line of my head sprite touched the first candle I saw. It was on frame 1713. Then I tried it short jumping four times. My head hit the candle on 1721, a 2 frame loss per jump. Then I tried with 3 high jumps. I hit at 1719, or a 2 frame loss per jump. Note that it didn't help any if I timed my jumps to cancel the landing animation (this came as a surprise to me, I assumed the time loss was from landing). Then I tried it high jumping while whipping, and it also came out as 1719, meaning my original assessment was wrong. However, I can still repeat my observations about getting hit at the end of a jump while whipping while making it while not whipping, so while the net frame loss from whipping while jumping does not change, it might make the loss occur earlier. In any event, the less enemies that you have on the screen, the less the gameboy lags, so I think your method is right in the end. Avoid jumping unnecessarily, but since you're jumping anyway, you should kill the maggots.
Posted: 10/27/2007 2:20 PM
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Sir_VG
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Player (40)
Joined: 10/9/2004
Posts: 1913
Location: Floating Tower
Also to note in regards to jumping: 1 - Jumping off of a ledge doesn't gain you frames. 2 - The lower the jump, the better. 3 - In Stage 1, jumping to kill the two bats after the one door saved me I believe a frame or two. That's even with my head bonking on the ledge, in comparison to standing on the ground.
Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing
Posted: 10/31/2007 8:37 AM
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Sir_VG
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Player (40)
Joined: 10/9/2004
Posts: 1913
Location: Floating Tower
Completed Stage 2 A couple of spots come up that I had some issues with, so I may go back and try some different things. 1 - The room before the split between the rope to the pocketwatch and the continuation of the level. Both going up through the room and going from the pocketwatch room to the collapsing bridge seemed...off. 2 - Boss battle didn't go as smooth as my cancelled submission. If anybody has any ideas, speak up. I'm willing to try something. Edit: Tried a new idea I just came up with for #1, saved 52 frames. I used the pocket watch at the beginning of the room, then took damage (with a quick face to the left) when the bat was to hit me. I tried getting an extra heart in the section, but it looks like it halted me for a couple frames, gonna try to redo and see if that cuts a few more off. Yep - minor change and some better manipulation of the one bat saved me 4 more frames (and 1 lifebar). :)
Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing
Posted: 11/2/2007 12:12 PM
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Tremalkinger
Joined: 10/24/2007
Posts: 23
Your new video desynchs for me right at the beginning. Don't worry, its me, not you. I remember this was happening before, and I fixed it, but I can't for the life of me remember what I did. I'll have more comments once I've actually watched it.
Posted: 11/3/2007 7:41 PM
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Vespa
Joined: 7/28/2006
Posts: 61
Yeah, both of your v2 videos desynch with me, but your canceled submission works fine.
Posted: 11/6/2007 9:02 AM
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Sir_VG
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Player (40)
Joined: 10/9/2004
Posts: 1913
Location: Floating Tower
Strange, cause I have no issues with desyncing. Make sure you're using VBA v20, and the UE [!] ROM. And don't use too much fast-forwarding, cause that seems to break it. Outside of that, don't know what to tell you. Worked fine for me, even on this crappy PC I'm on right now. Though I have improved the #1 issue. I was up some like 60 frames at the door after the collapsing bridge, but I lost about 40 of that by the time I beat the boss. I have an idea where, just not how. I'll figure it out later.
Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing
Posted: 11/10/2007 11:18 PM
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Sir_VG
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Player (40)
Joined: 10/9/2004
Posts: 1913
Location: Floating Tower
Stage 2 recompleted, WIP3 As I stated before, I'm having some issues with some lost frames. So hopefully somebody can help me out. On the left is the WIP3 frame marker, the right is the WIP2 marker. I classify Room 1 as the vertical room just below the room with the Pocketwatch, as that's where the changes between runs begin. Room 3 is because of the bat, trying to keep it out of my way. Room 5 is my biggest worry though. I'm figuring it's because of lag, but I'm not sure why or how to correct it. I'm including a save state that starts just before Room 1. Save State Room 1 - 26789 - 26840 (51) Room 2 - 27808 - 27867 (59) Room 3 - 28035 - 28091 (56) Lose Frames Room 4D- 28616 - 28673 (57) Room 5 - 30221 - 30236 (15) - Lose Frames Room 6 - 30432 - 30447 (15) Room 7 - 30508 - 30523 (15) Room 8 - 30995 - 31022 (27) Room 9D- 31324 - 31347 (23) - Lose Frames Room A - 31773 - 31796 (23) Room B - 31859 - 31883 (24) Room C - 32346 - 32375 (29) Room DD- 32671 - 32703 (32) Room ED- 34216 - 34264 (48) Room FO- 35380 - 35431 (51) Room G - ***** - 36569
Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing
Posted: 11/13/2007 12:43 PM
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zggzdydp
Skilled player (1223)
Joined: 9/15/2006
Posts: 165
Location: China
NES TASer of 2017
Hmm, Sir VG, there is still a few problem in the wip. For example, why didn't you jump off the line as early as possible? And I think you can jump on some podiums earlier. The re-recond count is still very less, I hope you will show it true later. :)
my homepage
Posted: 12/10/2007 12:09 AM
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Sir_VG
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Player (40)
Joined: 10/9/2004
Posts: 1913
Location: Floating Tower
I'll look at that, whenever I get back to that point. I'm back working on Stage 1, having spotted some minor issues in regards to taking damage. For instance, when I take damage from the spearman after getting the Axe, by facing backwards (to the right, since I'm moving left) 2 frames before I get hit, I get pushed to the left, saving me 39 frames at that spot. I know there are others, gotta lot to redo (again). -_-;; Also found I can save 18 at that spot when working my way to the right. Bleh. Edit: WIP 4 Stage 1 recompleted...again. 133 frames ahead of WIP 3 upon collection of the Wind Soul. A few minor changes and a lot of hex editing later, I think I finally win this level. What sucked is that with every change, 5 random factors were changed later. The bats by the axe, the boss itself. Save State for comparing WIP3 and WIP4. This loads with both WIP files at where I started making changes. And when you watch WIP4, I'm sure you'll enjoy all the crazy shit I had to do in order to save frames. >_>;; Edit 2: Nope, I no win at the level. I tried out some crazy crap working on Stage 2, and found out this trick works in Stage 1 as well, to something WAAAAAY back at the beginning. Meaning I have to start a huge chunk of the level over again. -_- Assuming it doesn't change too many random factors later, I might be able to shave off another couple dozen frames. Edit 3: Make that 48 by the end of the level. Dammit, I'm done with it now. That is a long 5m 51s level. -_- Edit 4: I'm finally back to my trouble spot, and 240 frames ahead of WIP3. Finally, I can PROgress instead of CONgress. Har har. >_>;;
Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing
Posted: 12/27/2007 9:23 AM
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Sir_VG
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Joined: 10/9/2004
Posts: 1913
Location: Floating Tower
This is definitely worthy of a new post instead of just another edit. WIP5 completed I'm now through stage 3, and am 2,107 frames ahead of my cancelled run. To put things into perspective... v1 - v2 WIP5 (Time based on collection of souls) Stage 1: 21279 - 20922 (357 frames saved) Stage 2: 36921 - 36159 (762 frames saved) Stage 3: 51179 - 49072 (2107 frames saved) Stage 4: 66508 - 63177 (3331 frames saved) Stage 5: 75028 - 71173 (3855 frames saved) Stage 6: 85000 - 80389 (4611 frames saved) How was time saved in Stage 3? (aka how did I rip the game apart like that?) 1 - I switch to and use the Wind Soul in a few spots. 2 - Taking damage to save time...total abuse of this. And by abuse, I mean I'm down to 1 health and a couple spots I get through the section by mere frames. And as a note in regards to zggzdydp's post, I tried your suggestion, but it in the end cost me frames, because it left that soldier's position out too far. Edit: Added Stage 4 time in. Alucard got his ass handed to him. :) Edit 2: Added Stage 5 leading to the secret level. Sub-90000 frames is definite now. Edit 3: Cleared Stage 6 (aka "The Secret Level"). Now to just finish the game. :) Edit unteenmillion: I ran across a really freaken bizarre glitch in Stage 5 (2nd half). I was heading up the vertical section and grabbed the rope by the bulky knight. However, instead of just climbing the rope as usual, suddenly I went through a screen transition and was moved up the rope about a screen worth. While it worked for me on the 2nd time through the section, it isn't working for me on the first. Could be because of burning mode, but I'm not sure...I pull it off mostly, then die off the top of the screen when I get to where I need to. :( Edit (again): GOT IT. I modified my burning mode start point, then did some slight overjumps, and I got the screen transition to go nicely. Now to just go back through Stage 6 again. :( Edit (yet again!): Through Stage 6 again. The glitch saved me probably 350+ frames, though I lost a few in Stage 6 due to the enemies running on slightly different timing. Total saved: 366.
Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing
Posted: 12/22/2018 8:58 PM
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scrimpeh
Editor, Skilled player (1438)
Joined: 3/31/2010
Posts: 2108
TAS of 2017 First edition TAS of 2017 PSX TAS of 2017
While messing around with the game, I found some interesting things. I don't plan on making an improvement to Sir VG's run any time soon, so I'm posting them here for posterity. You can climb ropes slightly faster by repeatedly jumping to and from them. It only works on the right side. There's some subpixels involved governing how many frames you're in midair. It's also possible to screenwrap using the ropes in any room, which allows you to go to the screen below. If there's no valid room below you, you go to some glitched area where it is possible to crash the game. Maybe these come in useful to someone.
Posted: 12/23/2018 2:00 PM
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Tremane
Active player (458)
Joined: 1/28/2008
Posts: 143
Location: Germany
Gameboy TAS of 2015
crazy findings scrimpeh! :)
2-do: Smurfs Nightmare, The (EU) GBC 10% fin : Mega Man: Dr. Wily's Revenge improvement: submitted Mega Man II Improvement: submitted Mega Man IV Improvement: submitted Mega Man V Improvement: submitted future plan: -n-
Posted: 12/23/2018 2:07 PM
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Challenger
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Skilled player (1688)
Joined: 2/23/2016
Posts: 1061
Sega TASer of 2017 TASer of 2017 NES TAS of 2017
I'm not familiar with GB Castlevania games, but the glitch could work with other games or the movement works different?
My homepage --Currently not much motived for TASing as before...-- But I'm still working.
Posted: 12/23/2018 3:11 PM
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scrimpeh
Editor, Skilled player (1438)
Joined: 3/31/2010
Posts: 2108
TAS of 2017 First edition TAS of 2017 PSX TAS of 2017
Challenger wrote:
I'm not familiar with GB Castlevania games, but the glitch could work with other games or the movement works different?
Legends is the only GB game that allows you turn around in midair. You can get the same effect in Belmont's Revenge by using damage knockback, but screen wrapping is still exclusive to Legends. (Technically, there is potential for a similar trick in Belmont's Revenge, but in vertical rooms only. You'd need to somehow reach the top or bottom of the screen without scrolling the camera. I don't know any feasible way to activate it, however.)
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