Topic by A2ZOMG

Posted: 6/5/2008 12:28 AM

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A2ZOMG

Joined: 5/30/2007
Posts: 28
Location: Southern California. YAY!

It's worse in Brawl than in Melee. This is because in Melee, the balance between offense, defense, and grab was better. In Brawl, it revolves more heavily around defense, so basically the game comes more down to whoever can do most out of shield, and whoever has better options for dealing with other shields. In Melee the shield was less safe to use because it was laggier and harder to powershield. This is not the case in Brawl of course. As far as I'm concerned, this is why Metaknight is THE best character in the game. Almost all of his attacks are safe on block, he has at least two out of shield options that kill, and he is very good at pressuring the shield. Also he doesn't get gimped. IMO, having good recovery is much more important than being heavy. In case you are curious, I think SSB64 is weighted on the attack because combos are extremely prevalent in this game. Grabs are also lame in SSB64, but they don't combo much (but they can kill). And the shield and dodge system is more primitive. 64 is also more unbalanced than Melee btw.

Posted: 6/5/2008 5:48 AM

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Neophos

Joined: 9/30/2007
Posts: 103

A2ZOMG wrote:

In Melee the shield was less safe to use because it was laggier and harder to powershield. This is not the case in Brawl of course.

On the other hand, you could lightshield in Melee as well, where the additional pushback often made it impossible to keep up pressure (similar to Guilty Gear's FD, except reversed).

A2ZOMG wrote:

64 is also more unbalanced than Melee btw.

64: 4 (Kirby, Pika, Ness, Fox) out of 12 characters are good enough to not have substantial disadvantages. 2 more (Falcon, Puff) able to perhaps follow suit. Melee: 5 (Fox, Falco, Peach, Sheik, Marth) out of 25 characters are good enough to not have substantial disadvantages. 2 more (Falcon, Samus) able to perhaps follow suit. Yes, 64 got less to balance, but it still got nearly the same amount of tournament-availible characters. Unlike Melee, it's not a poster boy of horrible balance.

Posted: 6/5/2008 9:10 PM

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thegreginator

Former player

Joined: 6/4/2006
Posts: 267
Location: CO

A2ZOMG wrote:

64 is also more unbalanced than Melee btw.

I play 64 competitively and this is simply not true. 64 is actually quite well balanced, as it is still very possible to win with a low tier character, unlike in SSBM. When I play people near my skill level, I find that I still have pretty much the same chances of winning regardless of the characters I choose and their tier placement.

Posted: 6/5/2008 9:12 PM

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Twelvepack

Joined: 5/2/2006
Posts: 1020
Location: Boulder, CO

The problem with the balance in melee was that the game seemed to have marth, and the 3-4 characters that had a relatively good match up against marth. the 64 version did not have this same one character to beat sort of identity, and I think thats a good thing. What we can do now is hope the neither mk nor snake turn out to create this same situation for brawl. No one wants to go to a tournament that is mostly one character, and play against nothing but him all afternoon, as was getting to be the issue with melee.

Has never colored a dinosaur.

Posted: 6/6/2008 1:00 AM

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Ferret_Warlord

Skilled player (1404)

Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1977
Location: Making an escape

Actually, the standard now is Fox. Half of the banned stages are because of him. I think Marth became popular simply to spite Roy fans.

A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.

Posted: 6/6/2008 6:07 PM

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Mitjitsu

He/Him

Banned User, Experienced player (532)

Joined: 4/24/2006
Posts: 2997

I don't know why such an emphasis is put tiers in fighting games. Ok in some games there is clearly better characters, mostly because of how good the secret ones are or because there is actual stats. Its all about understanding each of the characters strenghts and weaknesses, because of tiers in melee, pretty much all the advanced strats became developed for Fox and Falco.

Posted: 6/6/2008 10:35 PM

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RT-55J

Player (147)

Joined: 11/27/2004
Posts: 688
Location: WA State, USA

Ferret Warlord wrote:

Actually, the standard now is Fox. Half of the banned stages are because of him.

Are you sure? I thought it was because of Falco and his infinite laser trick.

Nach wrote:

I also used to wake up every morning, open my curtains, and see the twin towers. And then one day, wasn't able to anymore, I'll never forget that.

Posted: 6/7/2008 1:36 AM

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Ferret_Warlord

Skilled player (1404)

Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1977
Location: Making an escape

Fox also has an infinite combo on any level that has a vertical wall.

A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.

Posted: 6/7/2008 4:07 AM

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A2ZOMG

Joined: 5/30/2007
Posts: 28
Location: Southern California. YAY!

Most stages in Brawl get banned because of King Dedede and his chaingrab against almost the entire cast of characters which is infinite against walls and on stages that allow you to walk to the blastzone. However you can counterpick G&W against him and screw him over. =)

thegreginator wrote:

I play 64 competitively and this is simply not true. 64 is actually quite well balanced, as it is still very possible to win with a low tier character, unlike in SSBM. When I play people near my skill level, I find that I still have pretty much the same chances of winning regardless of the characters I choose and their tier placement.

Oh yeah? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuuQCqvp_0s You have more and better advanced commands in Melee btw, and you have a better defensive system to counter against offense. You don't have good defense in 64 to stop yourself from getting comboed to death, so basically in 64 it comes down to whoever has the most reliable and powerful combos, and this can be graded accurately since mobility is fairly simple in 64.

Posted: 6/9/2008 6:03 PM

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Ferret_Warlord

Skilled player (1404)

Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1977
Location: Making an escape

A2ZOMG - I'm talking in the context of Melee. Brawl has banned stages for different reasons. It's interesting though: by banning walk off stages, Dedede went from killing machine to... wherever on the tier list he is now. Probably not very high.

A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.

Posted: 6/11/2008 2:29 PM

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A2ZOMG

Joined: 5/30/2007
Posts: 28
Location: Southern California. YAY!

Oh I see. Yeah, that makes sense. Also stages like Yoshi's Story and Hyrule were banned due to laser camping from both Falco and Fox if I recall. But funny, Fox actually STILL has an infinite against walls, but it's easier to perform. And actually DDD is still amazing without his 0 to death chaingrab on certain stages. His chaingrab is a very good way to racking up damage especially at higher percents if you put in grab attacks in between. His recovery and projectiles are also quite good. Add his good range, other throws that can kill, and his strong aerials, he's very solid.

Posted: 7/4/2008 12:57 AM

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Raiscan

Joined: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1235
Location: United Kingdom

Yay, I'm lagging behind, but who cares. Just got Brawl, done SSE on normal difficulty 100% and I'm struggling to find stuff I actually WANT to do in the challenges. Is there anything particularly fun and unusual I can try in singleplayer? (my internet is lacking and my best gaming friend is 100 miles away so no co-op for me)

<adelikat> I am annoyed at my irc statements ending up in forums & sigs

Posted: 7/4/2008 12:11 PM

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Neophos

Joined: 9/30/2007
Posts: 103

There's about 130 different ways to play HRC and BtT if that's your thing. Check http://allisbrawl.com for info about them. Otherwise, no, not really. Also, Brawl is a horrible game. This is based on playing against Ice Climbers. Getting grabbed means one stock less, and without L-cancel and all that fancypants stuff, it's much harder not to get grabbed. Also, they can turn around within the infinite now. Goddamnit, Sakurai.

Posted: 7/9/2008 7:35 AM

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Bag_of_Magic_Food

He/Him

Active player (278)

Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712

So now that it's been a few months, the euphoria's worn off, and we can start tossing hate in the direction of Masahiro Sakurai?

put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude

Posted: 7/9/2008 3:03 PM

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Twelvepack

Joined: 5/2/2006
Posts: 1020
Location: Boulder, CO

Yup.

Has never colored a dinosaur.

Posted: 7/9/2008 3:36 PM

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RT-55J

Player (147)

Joined: 11/27/2004
Posts: 688
Location: WA State, USA

Snake is obscenely broken. Curse you KOOOJIIIIMAAAA!!!!!!

Nach wrote:

I also used to wake up every morning, open my curtains, and see the twin towers. And then one day, wasn't able to anymore, I'll never forget that.

Posted: 7/9/2008 5:24 PM

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Twelvepack

Joined: 5/2/2006
Posts: 1020
Location: Boulder, CO

Broken characters aside, they introduced too many "random" occurrences that impact the game. tripping, and most of the new maps are unpredictable, and diminishes the skill element. (as luck has a bigger factor) It seems like they wanted this game to fall in line with the mario party games, by adding enough random shit so that anyone can win, even people who suck.

Has never colored a dinosaur.

Posted: 7/9/2008 6:09 PM

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Zurreco

Former player

Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA

Even with the randomness, my room mate and I have a very hard time losing to most people. We even play 2v2 handicap matches against level 9 CPU and still win a great portion of the matches.

hi nitrodon streamline: cyn-chine

Posted: 7/9/2008 6:58 PM

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Wockes

Joined: 5/17/2007
Posts: 393
Location: Sweden

Bag of Magic Food wrote:

So now that it's been a few months, the euphoria's worn off, and we can start tossing hate in the direction of Masahiro Sakurai?

Depends on where in the world you are :P Also, load times suck

"No love for the game gear"

Posted: 7/10/2008 12:09 AM

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Neophos

Joined: 9/30/2007
Posts: 103

Twelvepack wrote:

Broken characters aside, they introduced too many "random" occurrences that impact the game. tripping, and most of the new maps are unpredictable, and diminishes the skill element. (as luck has a bigger factor) It seems like they wanted this game to fall in line with the mario party games, by adding enough random shit so that anyone can win, even people who suck.

Sakurai has made several explicit statements about "both players should feel like the winner" and that "everyone should be able to play and win", so, yeah, he has actually gone out of his way to make downright SURE that everyone can win by sheer luck.

Zurreco wrote:

Even with the randomness, my room mate and I have a very hard time losing to most people. We even play 2v2 handicap matches against level 9 CPU and still win a great portion of the matches.

Doesn't prove much. Even with the AI being much better then in Melee, it's still horrible.

Posted: 7/10/2008 4:11 PM

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Twelvepack

Joined: 5/2/2006
Posts: 1020
Location: Boulder, CO

Sakurai has made several explicit statements about "both players should feel like the winner" and that "everyone should be able to play and win", so, yeah, he has actually gone out of his way to make downright SURE that everyone can win by sheer luck.

I didn't realize they had stated it explicitly, but it comes as no surprise. I tend to be competitive, and as much fun as brawl was for a few weeks there, its just not what i want in a game.

Has never colored a dinosaur.

Posted: 7/10/2008 8:50 PM

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Ferret_Warlord

Skilled player (1404)

Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1977
Location: Making an escape

Part of what this game suffered from is over-hyping. Before release, fans hyped this sucker way up, more than I had ever seen, expecting it to be the end-all, be-all game. Then the anticipated release came out! And it turned out to be little more than an expansion of the Smash formula which has been around for a decade now. Obviously this didn't meet the expectations that various fans had put in place. For about a month, you could hear people whining, "This game sucks because Ridley isn't a playable character! A pox on you, Sakurai! How could you let us down like that?" Seriously. It got hyped up so much that wishlists somehow became features it was going to have, not what it should have. Of course, some disappointments are legitimate. Tripping is stupid, it items aren't as fun (I'm looking at you, Pokéball), many of the new stages are over-the-top, the online is an absolute mess, and the franchise itself is becoming more and more like The Nintendo History Channel than an opportunity to just rumble with some friends as Nintendo characters. But, at the end of the day, it's still a Smash game, nothing more, nothing less. As long as I can have a fun time with some friends, it's cool. Just don't act like a pompous jerk when we're playing, okay? :(

A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.

Posted: 7/21/2008 3:15 PM

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Yrr

Joined: 8/10/2006
Posts: 289
Location: Germany, Bayern

Since Brawl has finally been released in Europe I thought I'd give some comments on it. -No L-Cancels or wavedashes :( and you cannot airdodge in a direction. That makes Fox weaker, since he can't wavedash his opponents to death. -The new HrC is somewhat cool actually. However you cannot spam BD-combos as easily as in Melee now. -Easy in Brawl is harder than in Melee, however the highest difficulty isn't as hard as in Melee (you hope you get my point :P) -Fighting Tabuu on intense = FUN. I always do it when I am bored. -Snake and Sonic fit amazingly well in Smash Bros. -Meta Knight is like I hoped him to be. -The Final Smash feature is cool, but some FS' just suck (eg. Peach, Luigi). -Marth was getting nerved. All in all, it is what I expected. It's like SSBM with much more content.

Posted: 7/22/2008 5:22 PM

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Neophos

Joined: 9/30/2007
Posts: 103

Yrr wrote:

-The new HrC is somewhat cool actually. However you cannot spam BD-combos as easily as in Melee now.

I really hate how they removed the catchy theme from Melee with silence, though. Waiting those minutes for the bag to finish flying was better with a catchy theme in the background.

Yrr wrote:

-The Final Smash feature is cool, but some FS' just suck (eg. Peach, Luigi).

What? The drug zone is awesome! Free KO on anyone who gets stuck within it, more or less.

Yrr wrote:

-Marth was getting nerved.

Do you mean "nerfed", as in getting worse? Because in that case, can't agree with you. He's better then in Melee, it's just that Snake's even worse.

Posted: 7/22/2008 5:36 PM

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Kirkq

Player (208)

Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US

As a competitive melee player and semi-competitive brawl player, I must step in and say that Marth definitely got nerfed. With combos being all but removed in brawl, Marth doesn't have the edge over other characters any more. He also struggles to kill under 140%. Killing at 100% is really good for a character. Here's some amazing melee videos from this weekend's tournament in Florida to back up my point and provide some awesome viewing. This is perhaps one of the best tournament sets ever recorded. Melee - Mew2King vs DaShizWiz 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY1YGUP3l_Q 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-Hu0tr_4dI 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LITiwB-EDp4 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJLDGiwUEsc 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXWfubQPwB4

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