Topic by Cpadolf

Posted: 7/17/2008 2:12 PM

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Cpadolf

Skilled player (1431)

Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden

Out of all those, the only one I would find interesting at all is the purist minimal input, counting the number of keys pressed down each frame.

Agare Bagare Kopparslagare

Posted: 7/18/2008 8:54 AM

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alden

Player (120)

Joined: 2/11/2007
Posts: 1522

I got curious and counted some: http://tasvideos.org/Alden/ButtonPressStatistics.html

I make a comic with no image files and you should read it. While there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free. -Eugene Debs

Posted: 7/18/2008 9:46 AM

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Alter

Former player

Joined: 1/29/2007
Posts: 116

alden wrote:

I got curious and counted some: http://tasvideos.org/Alden/ButtonPressStatistics.html

What software did you use for counting?

Posted: 7/18/2008 2:29 PM

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Derakon

Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960

alden wrote:

I got curious and counted some: http://tasvideos.org/Alden/ButtonPressStatistics.html

Heh. What about the Super Metroid 100% movie?

Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.

Posted: 7/18/2008 4:57 PM

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alden

Player (120)

Joined: 2/11/2007
Posts: 1522

Excel, and it only works for NES movies :) I'll probably do a few more, any suggestions?

I make a comic with no image files and you should read it. While there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free. -Eugene Debs

Posted: 7/19/2008 6:59 AM

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Twelvepack

Joined: 5/2/2006
Posts: 1020
Location: Boulder, CO

Try to include the marble madness movie... an example of a movie where a and b are not a factor. Also, punch out.

Has never colored a dinosaur.

Posted: 7/19/2008 7:48 AM

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Dwedit

He/Him

Joined: 3/24/2006
Posts: 692
Location: Chicago

A and B are definitely a factor in marble madness. A is the dash button that makes you move much faster.

Posted: 7/19/2008 9:14 PM

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alden

Player (120)

Joined: 2/11/2007
Posts: 1522

OK, added some more: http://tasvideos.org/Alden/ButtonPressStatistics.html Surprisingly, Marble Madness seems to be on the high end... The most dense button pushing so far is SMB2 warps, which averages almost 2 presses per frame... by comparison, the median density movie, A Boy and His Blob, presses about 2/3 of a button per frame. Monopoly presses under 1/25 of a button per frame on average :) At some point I'll make a real script for these and maybe expand to other systems.

I make a comic with no image files and you should read it. While there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free. -Eugene Debs

Posted: 7/31/2008 8:16 PM

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Truncated

Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (968)

Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3107
Location: Sweden

I like these. alden, if/when you expand to other systems, the Kirby Dream Course movie by gocha will be something for you.

Posted: 8/2/2008 11:20 PM

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Warp

Banned User, Former player

Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland

How about this: The best movie file is the one which completes the game and which compresses the best (eg. with a defined version of 7zip using some defined compression options).

Posted: 8/3/2008 1:57 AM

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Aqfaq

Editor, Expert player (2459)

Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!

:D

Posted: 8/3/2008 5:20 AM

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FractalFusion

Editor, Skilled player (1938)

Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 3246

Chamale wrote:

Edit: I made it to 4-2 with 49 button presses, but now I can't do the trick with the vine where you go in the pipe and get sent to the warp zone. Even when I get stuck in the wall and get taken to the extreme right edge of the screen, it doesn't work. Any suggestions?

The reason why it works in the published SMB run is because of the part where Mario enters the wall in 4-2 which advances him further right relative to the screen. I can't explain more. Now you know who's also working on it. :)

Posted: 8/4/2008 4:40 PM

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alden

Player (120)

Joined: 2/11/2007
Posts: 1522

Truncated wrote:

I like these. alden, if/when you expand to other systems, the Kirby Dream Course movie by gocha will be something for you.

I do want to try to make a utility at some point... BTW the reason I was able to do the NES titles with Excel is the new .fc2 format for FCEUX... It stores button presses in essentially plain text so it is easy to import as a fixed-width spreadsheet and then apply simple functions like COUNTIF... all the other formats will make me think :S

I make a comic with no image files and you should read it. While there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free. -Eugene Debs

Posted: 8/4/2008 5:38 PM
(Edited: 10/11/2008 9:42 PM)

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FractalFusion

Editor, Skilled player (1938)

Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 3246

Super Mario Bros. done in ~~162~~ 163 button presses: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1372908278/Super%20Mario%20Bros%20%28PRG%200%29%20%28JU%29%20least%20press2.fcm I did it just for the concept. There was no attempt at making it as fast as possible. By level: begin: 1 1-1: 15 1-2: 15 4-1: 13 14 4-2: 15 8-1: 34 8-2: 19 8-3: 15 8-4: 35 total: ~~162~~ 163

Posted: 8/4/2008 5:42 PM

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adelikat

He/Him

Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player (3584)

Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4738
Location: Tennessee

Does holding a button for 5 frames count as 1 press or 5?

It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects

Posted: 8/4/2008 5:49 PM
(Edited: 10/11/2008 9:55 PM)

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FractalFusion

Editor, Skilled player (1938)

Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 3246

adelikat wrote:

Does holding a button for 5 frames count as 1 press or 5?

Holding a button counts as 1 press. If we count input frames, there is no way to bring it below ~~15000~~ ~~10000~~ (Edit: I don't know what I'm talking about).

Posted: 8/4/2008 7:44 PM

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Warp

Banned User, Former player

Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland

As someone commented, "minimal presses" is far from unambiguous. Is it: 1) The sum of all the keys which are in their down state at each frame? 2) The amount of keys pressed to their down state during the movie? 3) The amount of key state changes during the movie? (In other words, each time the state of a key changes, ie. from non-pressed to pressed and vice-versa, that counts as one.) (2 and 3 are, technically speaking, almost the same thing, except that 3 produces a number which is almost double of that of 2. However, as a concept they are distinct. In some cases it could make a difference, eg. if we are counting with method 3, eg. if the 'start' button is pressed you don't want to unpress it during the rest of the movie if you don't have to.)

Posted: 8/4/2008 11:47 PM

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kirbymuncher

Player (36)

Joined: 10/8/2006
Posts: 284

From what I understood, you simply counted how many buttons were pressed on each frame, and added them all up. Holding a button for 5 frames would be 5 presses, holding 2 buttons for 5 frames would be 10, etc.

Posted: 8/5/2008 2:19 AM
(Edited: 10/11/2008 9:55 PM)

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FractalFusion

Editor, Skilled player (1938)

Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 3246

Warp wrote:

As someone commented, "minimal presses" is far from unambiguous. Is it: 1) The sum of all the keys which are in their down state at each frame? 2) The amount of keys pressed to their down state during the movie? 3) The amount of key state changes during the movie? (In other words, each time the state of a key changes, ie. from non-pressed to pressed and vice-versa, that counts as one.)

While the definition of "minimal presses" is subject to debate, I reason that Nach intended definition #2 on the following basis:

Nach wrote:

Can SMB be beaten in less than 60 presses?

Nach wrote:

I take some of that back, SMB would only need Right+B once the entire game, leaving the rest of it to minimal jumps.

The phrase "minimal jumps" probably means "minimal number of jumps". Most other interpretations contradict the first half of the sentence in which it appears. Under #2, any key switch from non-pressed to pressed (or a key press from the first frame) counts as 1, and nothing else. Then my SMB movie has 163 key presses. Under #3, my SMB movie has 2*163-3=323 key changes. 322 if I held Start the whole way. Whether key presses on the first frame should count or not is again debatable.

Posted: 8/5/2008 2:32 PM

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Warp

Banned User, Former player

Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland

FractalFusion wrote:

Whether key presses on the first frame should count or not is again debatable.

IMO they should be definitely counted. While highly unlikely, it's theoretically possible that some game might be completable by pressing and holding one or more keys from the very first frame and keeping them that way all the way through. In this case it makes sense to make the distinction about how many keys were pressed on that first frame (as well as a distinction to a "zero-press movie" where no buttons are pressed at all at any point). Definition #3 would also make sense over #2 in this way: Is it possible to complete the game by pressing a certain key at the beginning and keeping it pressed, or must the key be released at some point? Technically speaking that makes a difference, and definition #3 accounts for that.

Posted: 9/4/2008 12:30 AM
(Edited: 9/4/2008 12:42 AM)

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bkDJ

Joined: 7/26/2006
Posts: 1215

So, I was bored. Currently only supports fcm but I could add smv and gmv pretty quickly. The hardest part was wrapping my head around the way the binary is organized for fcm. Also, only records data for controller 1 for now (but multi-controller movies should work). Get it here (holy crap that's quite the url). I wrote it in managed C++/CLI as a challenge to myself but I wish I had picked something easier. This probably requires the .NET framework.

Posted: 9/4/2008 12:33 AM

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alden

Player (120)

Joined: 2/11/2007
Posts: 1522

fm2 should be pretty easy too. It's all clear text basically. Awesome! I'll check it out...

I make a comic with no image files and you should read it. While there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free. -Eugene Debs

Posted: 9/4/2008 12:51 AM

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Baxter

Skilled player (1402)

Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 1821

bkDJ: funny that you picked Arkanoid warped as an example. While making it, I thought, if optimized for least button presses (which I didn't do, since I moved quite a bit to the left and right while waiting) it could very well be the TAS with the largest % of the frames no button presses at all.

http://tasvideos.org/Baxter.html

Posted: 9/4/2008 1:16 AM

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bkDJ

Joined: 7/26/2006
Posts: 1215

Baxter wrote:

% of the frames no button presses at all.

Oh, that's a good stat to include. Fixed it up a bit. Enjoy.

EDIT1: I must be retarded. I'm trying to add smv support and it's simple hex updates unlike fcm which is almost optimized for network transfer. However, following the format spec, I end up with ridiculous results: I'm pretty sure this super metroid run used "right" more than 0 times!

EDIT2: oh jeez. Endianness. Well, fixed. Here's the latest. EDIT3: Reorganized code (still terrible) for easier format additions. And wow, fm2 was ridiculously easy and made for a very quick implementation. :D

Latest version here: http://www.mediafire.com/?aaaaanaabaa (what the hell is with all those "a"'s) Also, I'm open to suggestions.

Posted: 9/7/2008 9:03 AM

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Randil

Skilled player (1885)

Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2160
Location: Norrköping, Sweden

I'm sensing a bug in the program, button A held down for 7701 frames in a 4409 frames movie is very impressive. :) Here's the movie if you want to run some tests on it or so. Otherwise a very nice program, keep up the good job. EDIT: I just tested, and this bug is present in all versions up to 0.3.

My own page on this site.