Joined: 5/17/2008
Posts: 212
Location: Virginia
Truncated suggested I try running the Genesis version of this game instead of the NES version. Here's levels 1-3: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/393223468/Alien%203%20%28UE%29%20%28REV00%29%20%5B%21%5D.gmv - 5 seconds faster thanks to aqfaq. All comments/suggestions/constructive criticism are welcome. Edit: Fixed the link >_>
adelikat wrote:
It started off fairly tame, but as more balls entered the picture it sure got a lot more entertaining.
Editor, Expert player (2480)
Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!
Hi, Apo123! This looks good to me, but I'm not familiar with the game, so I can't give much specific feedback. However, I noticed that wasting ammo seems to save time in the score tally screen after the level has ended. Maybe it looks bad to waste the ammo, though, and maybe the ammo is needed later. Did you test avoiding the long fall by going right after the ladder and then walking left onto the elevators, instead of jumping immediately down to the left and getting stunned by the fall? The stun recovery time is quite long.
Joined: 5/17/2008
Posts: 212
Location: Virginia
I decided to not waste ammo, to make it look cleaner. As for going to the right, no, I didn't test that. Thanks for the suggestion, I'll see if it saves time. Ooh, that saved several seconds! It saves about 30 frames over the dropping method, and gives me a 4 frame window to get that elevator on the way up, so I don't have to wait for it. Edit: Updated GMV: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1681670550/Alien%203%20%28UE%29%20%28REV00%29%20%5B%21%5D.gmv
adelikat wrote:
It started off fairly tame, but as more balls entered the picture it sure got a lot more entertaining.
Joined: 5/17/2008
Posts: 212
Location: Virginia
Mission 3 complete. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/393223468/Alien%203%20%28UE%29%20%28REV00%29%20%5B%21%5D.gmv Time remaining after each mission compared to Exilant's run: Mission 1: Exilant: 1:57 Me: 2:04 (7s) Mission 2: Exilant: 1:48 Me: 1:52 (4s) Mission 3: Exilant: 1:50 Me: 2:23 (33s)
adelikat wrote:
It started off fairly tame, but as more balls entered the picture it sure got a lot more entertaining.
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (980)
Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3109
Location: Sweden
It sounds good, and I'd like to watch it to give comments, but Microstorage is down. :( It will have to wait, unless you can upload it somewhere else or email it or something (see: tasvideos.org/Truncated.html). ----- Disregard that, DeHackEd put up something temporary at http://65.93.101.29/microstorage.php I'll get back with comments. ----- Comments: - I guess it's faster to shoot the doors rather than opening them? - You often seem to be turned the wrong way when coming off ladders. This is not necessary I think, you can hold the direction you want to go in as you come off the ladder. - 8250, it does not look like you enter the prisoner's platform as soon as possible. Can you jump in there instead of walking? - 9020, is it faster to jump into the hole? - 16950, you seem very slow to get off the platform. Why not jump? I tried to find the memory position for the boss health, but didn't manage. 00FF1FD7, 1 byte, unsigned, is somehow related. Something like this: machinegun = 4 flamethrower = 8 rocket = 32 grenade = 32 You also need to figure out how fast they damage the boss, at what interval.
Joined: 5/17/2008
Posts: 212
Location: Virginia
Thanks for watching! It's faster to shoot some doors rather than open them. I tested both, and shooting that door on level 2 was faster than opening it by like 10 frames. The door immediately after that was far, far faster to blow up (since I'd have to open it twice). I do hold the directions as I get off the ladder, I dunno why it makes me turn the wrong direction :( Running off a rising platform is faster than jumping up, even if I run into the wall for a frame or two. Jumping at 9020 doesn't allow me enough control in the air to move backwards and get to the level below. 16950: I skipped an enemy spawn trigger somehow. An alien is supposed to jump from above and whack me in the middle of running/jumping, but it doesn't appear. Unintentional, but I kept it since it's faster.
adelikat wrote:
It started off fairly tame, but as more balls entered the picture it sure got a lot more entertaining.
Editor, Expert player (2480)
Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!
Apo123 wrote:
I do hold the directions as I get off the ladder, I dunno why it makes me turn the wrong direction :(
In some games, the getting-off-the-ladder direction depends on what the initial direction was when the climb begun. I'm not sure if that's the case here, though.
honorableJay
He/Him
Joined: 8/18/2008
Posts: 104
Location: Albany, NY
it's been years since I've played this game, but here's my 2 cents when it comes to the weapons. Both the machine gun and the flame thrower shoot at the same speed, but the flame thrower can only hit something in close proximity. I don't have accurate numbers but I believe each gun fires once every 2-3 frames in sustained bursts. The grenade launcher has closer to a 10 frame shooting pause before the grenade is launched, an then you have to take into account travel time before it hits the target (and you can't do anything until the grenade is airborne, so no running, etc etc). Hand grenades are even worse when it comes to shooting. The shooting animation is about the same as the grenade launcher, maybe a few frames more, but the grenade doesn't explode on contact and has to wait for about 2 seconds before going off. Against the bosses it's only good as the last hit since you can drop it an start running for the exit door, or you can use it to hit the boss if it's below you (don't quote me but I believe with the machine gun you have to be running to aim up or down, which is only at an angle). The only way I can see wasting ammo actually saving time (since you can hit start on the score tally screen to fast forward it I believe) is if you played every single level as you want, counted every single shot you'll need along with how many pickups you get, an then start adding in ammo wasting parts. However you can only run and fire the machine gun. *Edit* Loaded up gens an did some frame advance testing, here's what I've found out. There appears to be a 3 frame rule for nearly everything in the game. Running, shooting, etc, all require that the key is pressed and held for 3 frames before actually affecting gameplay. The machine gun and flame thrower both take 3 frames before starting, and they fire another shot every 3 frames. The flame thrower counts down 1 ammo every 6 frames while firing (however this might not always be the case as you can sometimes burn up an extra ammo shot every 3rd frame, not sure why). The machine gun counts down 1 ammo for every shot fired (so every 3 frames). The grenade launcher has a 3 frame start-up time before entering the animation. After that it takes 17 frames before the grenade is actually drawn on the screen, for a combined firing time of 20 frames. For hand grenades, after the 3 frame start-up time, it takes 14 frames before the grenade is drawn on screen. Once the grenade is drawn there's an extra 10 frames where Ripley stands around like an idiot with her arm extended. On the very next frame you gain control over her again. That's a combined total of 27 frames just to shoot. Now, counting the frame where the grenade is initially drawn, it takes 39 total frames before the grenade will explode. In order to stack commands and take control of Ripley on the first frame available you have to start an action you wish to perform 3 frames in advance. And once an action is started that can be stopped and interrupted (like running) you have to take into account 3 frames after you release the button that you can't do anything. So say you want to run for a bit and fire a grenade, again you have 3 frames before the action will stop you from running and begin firing. Likewise, if you just let go of the direction to stop running there's 3 frames that will go before you actually stop. The good thing is it appears the game has a constant 60hz polling of the controller so there's only few areas where input is not accepted (I'm assuming the screen fade-outs between levels). Other frame counts (assumes the 3 frame start-up is already done): ducking = 6 frames, control gained on 7th frame for duck firing, after animation is done and standing takes place, another 6 frames with control gained on 7th frame getting on ladders = 7 frames, control gained on 8th frame getting off ladders = 12 frames, control gained on 13th frame splattering (too high of a fall) = 160 frames starting on the frame you hit the ground, control gained on frame 161 drop from too high = 80 frames moving downward, falls landing on 79th frame should be the highest possible (tested by walking off a ledge, started on first frame Ripley actually moving downward) *Note 3 frame start up does NOT affect this* changing weapons = 1 frame (does not interrupt any other animation, can be done during other actions), draws new ammo on 4th frame, weapon picture on 8th. You can then hit fire on the 2nd frame to fire the new weapon, HOWEVER you cannot time it to change weapons while already starting up a fire animation. One thing that's interesting, if you hit A and B on the same frame, then release the A button and continue holding fire, you'll change weapons and fire in a weird way. You'll start firing whatever gun you were holding, yet the next gun will be selected and ready to go. Just stop firing then start up again and you'll fire the gun you previously selected. So if you have the machine gun and you want to fire the flame thrower next, you can hit AB for 1 frame, then let go of A, and start firing the machine gun. Then let go of B to stop and then start firing the flame thrower. I haven't seen how this affects actual ammo counts though, but I will see if I can do some more testing later.
Joined: 5/17/2008
Posts: 212
Location: Virginia
Thanks, that's a shitload of useful info! I'm not planning on grenading the bosses at all, as you mentioned it takes forever to actually go off. You can stand still and fire the machine gun up/down, but because of the angle it might be hard to hit the target. I'm gonna try everything I can think of for the boss, and find out which is fastest. While I'm not sure about this, I think the flamethrower may deal damage every frame the flame is in the enemy, like in the NES version. For duck-firing with the machine gun, you must hit down 2 frames before you begin firing or it'll just fire at the angle. Not sure if this applies to other weapons, though. The AB thing sounds interesting, I'll have to take a look at it.
adelikat wrote:
It started off fairly tame, but as more balls entered the picture it sure got a lot more entertaining.
Joined: 5/17/2008
Posts: 212
Location: Virginia
Truncated: Thanks to that memory address, I've figured out the boss hp! 00FF1FD7 begins on some value like 230. As I deal damage, it underflows back to 255. On an underflow, 00FF1FD6 (the address right above it) decreases by 1. When it's 0 and FD7 underflows, the boss dies.
adelikat wrote:
It started off fairly tame, but as more balls entered the picture it sure got a lot more entertaining.
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (980)
Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3109
Location: Sweden
It is definitely possible to come off the ladders in any direction you want. I started recording from your movie at the first place you get off in the wrong direction: http://65.93.101.29/microstorage.php/get/1048863069/Alien%203%20(UE)%20(REV00)%20%5B!%5D%20-%20Kopia.gmv Just start pressing left or right earlier. ---- From your description, I could deduce that I must have messed up when I tried to monitor the complete health. Put a watch to 00FF1FD6, 2 bytes, signed and you can monitor the whole boss health at once. It starts out at 1000 HP.
Joined: 5/17/2008
Posts: 212
Location: Virginia
Thanks, I'll redo those first 3 levels.
adelikat wrote:
It started off fairly tame, but as more balls entered the picture it sure got a lot more entertaining.
Joined: 5/17/2008
Posts: 212
Location: Virginia
Redone, plus a test kill of the first boss. The machine gun appears to do the most damage per second, but more testing is required. http://65.93.101.29/microstorage.php/info/1609496764/Alien%203%20%28UE%29%20%28REV00%29%20%5B%21%5D.gmv
adelikat wrote:
It started off fairly tame, but as more balls entered the picture it sure got a lot more entertaining.
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (980)
Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3109
Location: Sweden
First three levels now look very good, i can't think of anything to improve. About the boss: i checked his HP while you blasted him with both the machinegun and the flamethrower. The machinegun depletes ammo every 4 frames, the flamethrower every 6 frames. The machinegun does 4 damage, the flamethrower 8. This would give MG: 1 dmg/frame FT: 1.33 dmg/frame but that's not the whole truth. Sometimes the weapons give more damage (up to 17!), and at faster a interval. This is something you need to investigate. Anyway, I think probably flamethrower should be used whereever possible, and machinegun when the boss jumps or when running up to him.
Joined: 5/17/2008
Posts: 212
Location: Virginia
If I can find those conditions for increased damage, maybe I can fire a rocket on that hit. If 4 damage becomes 17, then 32 will be over 1/10 of the boss' health. I'll look and see if there's any correlation between the number of hits and the increased damage (x hit = more damage?), or where the boss is (jumping = takes more damage?), or where the shots are actually hitting (head shot, somehow?)
adelikat wrote:
It started off fairly tame, but as more balls entered the picture it sure got a lot more entertaining.
Joined: 5/17/2008
Posts: 212
Location: Virginia
Turns out, with proper timing, I can have the rocket launcher hit the boss twice with 1 attack (that's 64 damage). A horribly unoptimized attempt has beaten my test kill with the machine gun, so I'll redo the boss fight again. Edit: 1:04 left (3 second improvement over test kill) http://65.93.101.29/microstorage.php/info/1095221315/Alien%203%20%28UE%29%20%28REV00%29%20%5B%21%5D.gmv
adelikat wrote:
It started off fairly tame, but as more balls entered the picture it sure got a lot more entertaining.
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (980)
Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3109
Location: Sweden
Whoa. Some of those hits do sick damage... the third last one does 78 instead of 32 for example. :O I think the weaponswitching is quite fast, right? You should be able to get a few machinegun shots in while the boss jumps and still switch back to the rockets to begin hitting him as he lands.
Joined: 5/17/2008
Posts: 212
Location: Virginia
I tried that, but couldn't manage to fire the machine gun and still switch back to the rocket launcher and fire in time for the multiple hit effect. If only it fired on the first 3 frames of holding... Also, I have the next level completed (8 seconds faster than Exilant's). Total time saved so far is about 56 seconds. I'll update with a new WIP either after the next level, or the one after that.
adelikat wrote:
It started off fairly tame, but as more balls entered the picture it sure got a lot more entertaining.
honorableJay
He/Him
Joined: 8/18/2008
Posts: 104
Location: Albany, NY
have you figured out what exactly causes the massive damage increases? what about the proper timing, how does that work?
Joined: 5/17/2008
Posts: 212
Location: Virginia
Not yet. I was just testing completely random things, and had the idea of delaying my shot a few frames to see if I could hit the boss multiple times while he lands. I got the damage increase, and did the boss again using the rocket launcher for landings and the machine gun elsewhere. I noticed I was still getting the damage increases with the machine gun, so I tried firing a rocket to hit on the same frame the machine gun's damage got boosted. It worked. Interestingly enough there was a separate sound effect for one of the shots (if I'm not going crazy, that is). It may be intentional on the part of the game's programmers to have "critical hits" or something, but I dunno.
adelikat wrote:
It started off fairly tame, but as more balls entered the picture it sure got a lot more entertaining.
honorableJay
He/Him
Joined: 8/18/2008
Posts: 104
Location: Albany, NY
hmmm, maybe the enemies in the game have certain animation frames where they're supposed to take critical damage? one thing that I thought was odd about the boss alien is that he never looked like a solid sprite, more like a mashup of an upper body sprite and a lower body sprite. if this is the case, maybe you're hitting the boss in the spot where both sprites meet, maybe a specific pixel (or sub) position which would make the game calculate damage for both sprites at the same time........or I'm just spinning conspiracy theories :) it could also be that you're simply hitting the alien on the frame that it makes a state change (say ducking to walking, etc) an the game just gets confused. too bad we don't have the damage calculator the game actually uses, would be interesting to see exactly what's going on.
Joined: 5/17/2008
Posts: 212
Location: Virginia
http://65.93.101.29/microstorage.php/info/1023594379/Alien%203%20%28UE%29%20%28REV00%29%20%5B%21%5D.gmv - New WIP up to level 5. Exploring a new route for level 6, I don't agree with Exilant's (although his may well end up being the fastest). Level 5 is 3-4 seconds faster than Exilant's, for a grand total of 1 minute saved. honorableJay, I agree with your multiple sprite theory. I believe the boss is made up of 4 sprites - 1 bottom and 3 top. It would explain why the machine gun was able to get 4 hits at once, and why the rocket can get 2. Also, in frame advance I noticed that I couldn't see the boss' head while he was jumping, I just wrote it off as a minor graphical glitch, but it may be something far more sinister *cue spooky music in background*. Also, the flamethrower seemed to do damage at different rates due to distance. The multiple sprite theory may explain that, since I think the flamethrower deals X damage per frame of the flame inside the enemy. One flame hitting different parts of the boss for different lengths of time would definitely explain why distance has an effect. Of course, I could simply be going insane (which would also explain a lot).
adelikat wrote:
It started off fairly tame, but as more balls entered the picture it sure got a lot more entertaining.
Joined: 5/17/2008
Posts: 212
Location: Virginia
I've been pretty busy with schoolwork. Here's the current WIP, up to the third level set (2nd boss dead). http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/488205589/Alien%203%20%28UE%29%20%28REV00%29%20%5B%21%5D.gmv I'm going to try redoing the boss fight, I had killed it by 1:34 or so last time I think, but redid it due to noticing a few ladder mistakes on the previous level. Any suggestions?
adelikat wrote:
It started off fairly tame, but as more balls entered the picture it sure got a lot more entertaining.
Editor, Expert player (2480)
Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!
Apo123 wrote:
Any suggestions?
Generally, I would suggest trying harder to optimize every minor detail. I tested recording from the first ladder in the first level. When Ripley returns to the surface, my movie is already 37 frames faster: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1385908647/alien3test.gmv I think your movie looks very good already, but this kind of minor details probably accumulate as the run progresses. You should always test even the craziest ideas. There could be surprising ways to avoid or kill the aliens. TASing is not easy. That's why it's fun. :)
Joined: 5/17/2008
Posts: 212
Location: Virginia
Wow, I honestly never even considered dodging that first alien! I think I'm still a little too used to realtime play (where I can't dodge that one). I'll restart, and see if I can't find some other places to save time like this.
adelikat wrote:
It started off fairly tame, but as more balls entered the picture it sure got a lot more entertaining.