Topic by Mukki

Posted: 12/5/2008 5:00 PM

Post subject: Golden Axe 1, 2 and 3

Quote

Mukki

Skilled player (1090)

Joined: 8/26/2006
Posts: 1139
Location: United Kingdom

Note: I'm aware that there is already a Golden Axe topic, but for what I am doing I think it'd be better to do this in one topic rather than having three. For a few months now I've been picking at trying to improve the current Golden Axe TAS by Trazz with a few to going on to TAS Golden Axe 2 and 3 in the future. However, I've noticed that I get the best results when working on it solidly so I'm going to work on all these games at the same time. Golden Axe http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/833501175/goldenaxe.gmv This is an improvement of 26 frames to level 1. This is more than I expected considering how little room there is for new strategies. Screen 1 is improved by 4 frames by hitting the longmoan higher in its hitbox. The strategy is the same. Screen 2 is not improved. The Longmoan and the Heninger both have 16HP. The downward stab does 16HP worth of damage and I was able to manipulate the enemies so that I hit them both with it but doing so takes too long. Manipulating them to cross over so that they can be hit with two 2HP slices and 12HP back attack is difficult in itself and there is not much room for change. Screen 3 is improved by 10 frames. 6 frames were saved by manipulating the Storchinaya to walk into the back attack earlier. 4 frames are saved by a nice little oddity that let me get in behind the chicken leg and use a back attack and move out of the way before Tyris mounts it. Screen 4 is essentially two one-on-ones and so nothing is improved. Screen 5, the boss battle, is nicely improved by 12 frames. 10 frames are saved by a nice little glitch that lets me hit the upper bad brother before he comes on the screen :-) a further 2 frames are saved by a cool new battle strategy. I have a massive amount of respect for Trazz's run. If anyone has any ideas for improvement please raise them because I hope to make a very good job of this run. I've chosen to make this a single player run. A two-player run would be considerably faster, but because there are no more enemies or challenges it would essentially be a two player run of a single player game. I don't believe this would be as entertaining from a TAS perspective, but I'm very interested to hear other people's opinions. Golden Axe 2 This is still in the planning stages, but I should be able to start recording this week. All I can say now is that there will be a lot of AI abuse in this run :-) I made a very half-assed real time speedrun of this game a while ago. I made it so I could watch something along with the RAM to make better notes about enemies and strategies without having to physically play the game at the same time. However, if you have never played Golden Axe 2 before and are curious as to how the game looks then you may like it. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1803778989/Golden%20Axe%20II%20%28W%29%20%5B%21%5D.gmv I've still not decided wether this will be one or two player. I'm leaning towards single player but I may change my mind. Opinions are very welcome. Golden Axe 3 This is the game I'm least familiar with having never owned it (it was only released in Japan). There is the option to take many routes through the game and I have yet to decide which is the fastest so it may take a while to get this off the ground. This game is quite long aswell and would work best as a two-player run. Like above I've made a (quater-assed) speedrun of this game that some people may find interesting. Unfortunately, there is not huge potential for stupidity abuse in this game (but there is some), but the wealth of routes, attacks, magic and characters should make up for it :-D http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1725825929/Golden%20Axe%20III%20%28J%29%20%5B%21%5D.gmv

http://tasvideos.org/Mukki.html

Posted: 12/5/2008 6:11 PM

Quote

Dromiceius

Joined: 10/3/2005
Posts: 1332

Mukki wrote:

I don't believe this would be as entertaining from a TAS perspective, but I'm very interested to hear other people's opinions.

IMO, entertainment in a beat-em-up comes from seeing hordes of enemies quickly disposed of, so I'd say that 2 players is better in all cases. Besides the extra damage output, you get more options for AI manipulation, death abuse, and silly behavior. Probably less monotony as well, just because there's more going on on the screen. Monotony is what people usually cite as a reason to dislike beat-em-up TASes. I don't believe it would make or break the run by any means, but I definitely see 2-players as a big win, as far as entertainment is concerned.

Posted: 12/5/2008 6:22 PM

Post subject: Re: Golden Axe 1, 2 and 3

Quote

Paused

Joined: 5/9/2005
Posts: 748

Mukki wrote:

...be one or two player. Opinions are very welcome.

For me, I am alot more likely to watch a run with 2+ players (The more the merrier.) than just one player alone, regardless of any changes, or lack there of. Just flat out more entertaining in my opinion. In most cases anyway. This goes double for games like Golden Axe 1 of which I have seen a number of one player runs already. I doubt I will watch single player run of the first game again, but I will definitely watch a 2 player one, probably multiple times. So I say; 2 player all of em.

Posted: 12/5/2008 9:05 PM
(Edited: 12/7/2008 11:55 AM)

Quote

ShinyDoofy

Former player

Joined: 12/5/2007
Posts: 716

As requested on IRC, here go some careless encodes: Golden Axe Golden Axe 2 Golden Axe 3

Posted: 12/5/2008 9:24 PM
(Edited: 12/6/2008 5:37 PM)

Quote

Mitjitsu

He/Him

Banned User, Experienced player (532)

Joined: 4/24/2006
Posts: 2997

That encode crashes every player I have. In relation to Golden Axe I'd personally want to see all 3 games done using 2 players.

Posted: 12/5/2008 9:59 PM

Quote

ShinyDoofy

Former player

Joined: 12/5/2007
Posts: 716

It runs fine for me with mplayer, vlc 0.97, xine and totem. :x

Posted: 12/7/2008 3:57 PM

Quote

moozooh

Senior Moderator

Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5770
Location: Away

Golden Axe 1 improvement is pretty decent, keep it up. The hanged geezer you downstab in the first stage of Golden Axe 2 masturbates on the run as you free him. What's up with that? In other news, it has the most hilarious sound effects of the three games, which alone should contribute to the entertainment. I'm not keeping my hopes too high, though, because the game is not more hilarious than GA1 overall, yet is somewhat longer. I'd like to see it optimized, though: maybe I am mistaken. Golden Axe 3 2-player pure-speed run would be horrible, mainly because there are dual attacks that kill everything in their range in as few as 1-2 strikes (most bosses included). A fast playaround could be interesting, but on the other hand, the game is pretty long, too (about 40+ minutes optimized, I'd say). Which is kind of sad, really, since it's my favorite part in the series.

Warp wrote:

Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.

Posted: 12/14/2008 2:29 AM

Post subject: Re: Golden Axe 1, 2 and 3

Quote

trazz

Player (94)

Joined: 6/25/2005
Posts: 122

Mukki wrote:

Golden Axe I have a massive amount of respect for Trazz's run. If anyone has any ideas for improvement please raise them because I hope to make a very good job of this run.

Looks like I didn't get all the frames, eh? Keep finding a few surplus frames here and there and the awesome should take care of itself.

I've chosen to make this a single player run. A two-player run would be considerably faster, but because there are no more enemies or challenges it would essentially be a two player run of a single player game. I don't believe this would be as entertaining from a TAS perspective, but I'm very interested to hear other people's opinions.

I briefly experimented with a GA I two player run and came to the conclusion that combination was a very, very poor candidate for entertainment quickly. Tyris already is quite capable of slicing through everything and has to dash around quickly to keep the kills coming. Two characters with TAS-granted-powers would make most of the interesting screens solvable with pure brute force. I've been out of the TAS scene for some time and will likely be so for quite some time. Good luck finding more excess frames! (P.S.--Shadow Dancer is also improvable but, eh, don't have the time for a full run!) Edit: Watched the mkv file. Nice work so far! I blathered on about various stuff in my multiple posts about my multiple versions of the run--hopefully you can glean some useful information there. Luck manipulation should only be a major issue during the bonus stages but luck manipulation WILL be THE major issue in those bonus stages! A breakthrough in manipulating the RNG for those stages should be a guaranteed source of saved frames.

Posted: 12/15/2008 12:22 PM

Quote

Mukki

Skilled player (1090)

Joined: 8/26/2006
Posts: 1139
Location: United Kingdom

Thanks for all the feedback. As far as GA 1 goes I'm still sticking with a 1-player run; I've experimented with it quite a bit and I've decided a 2P is far less entertaining, mainly because of what trazz has already said and on another note the screen scrolls far slower making the movement more jagged and sloppy looking. I've not progressed much further; I still suspect that screen 2 may be improvable by 3 frames, perhaps the fourth screen by a little (but not likely) and I'm not convinced that the boss strategy is the fastest, there's still a few things I'd like to try out. The luck manipulation in the bonus rounds will be hellish, although I've not tried it yet (if anyone, for whatever reason, has the RNG address(es) lying around that'd be awesome and would save me some time). Because of the randomness everything thus far is subject to change. I've decided to make GA2 a 2-player run. There are more enemies in a two-playered game making it more interesting from a TAS perspective. I've progressed about halfway through the first level. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/565231972/goldenaxe2.gmv All the enemies so far have 16HP and, unlike GA1, the downward stab does 12HP rather than 16HP damage. The fastest method to dispose of these enemies is two slashes (2HP each) then the downward stab. This game is considerably easier to optimise than GA1 as it is easier to connect with the downward stab and the enemies are generally more aggressive. As to GA3 I knew the team attacks were the most powerful but I'd hoped that of all the attacks in this game there would be some alternatives to keep it interesting. I haven't experimented too extensively yet, but I think moozooh may be right, in which case a fastest time run wouldn't make for an interesting TAS. Shame. I'll make a WIP and see how it looks. I've been disgustingly busy over the last few weeks but now I'm much more free so I should be able to make some nice proress here.

http://tasvideos.org/Mukki.html

Posted: 12/16/2008 1:48 AM

Post subject: GA2

Quote

trazz

Player (94)

Joined: 6/25/2005
Posts: 122

I agree with the decision to go with 2 players in GA2. One trick that may be useful is for 2 player combos--e.g., 1 player does slash-slash while player 2 is already in midair for the fatal downslash. If you use the two humans, it's possible to get them to "kiss" during downtime. Don't know if "magic throws" work in GA2/GA3 (jumping downslash, turn the frame after hitting to knock the enemy forwards) but that might be worth checking out, too. As for GA1, I've mentioned this before, but somehow pausing-unpausing just before a bonus round starts changes the RNG rolls. Pausing and unpausing at different frames has different results and multiple pause/unpauses can change the RNG even further. Why that works, I don't know. Another thing that may or may not be useful is that a bonus round can be shorter if you enter it with one or zero pots. Since the thieves add the stolen pots to their inventories, it takes fewer hits to get rid of a thief that hasn't stolen extra pots. After review, I believe I should have NOT taken any pots in stage 3 bonus or stage 4.

Posted: 12/16/2008 3:19 AM

Quote

eternaljwh

Joined: 3/11/2008
Posts: 583
Location: USA

Isn't GA2 4-player in its arcade incarnation?

Posted: 12/16/2008 3:55 AM

Quote

trazz

Player (94)

Joined: 6/25/2005
Posts: 122

eternaljwh wrote:

Isn't GA2 4-player in its arcade incarnation?

GA2 Arcade and GA2 Genesis are two entirely different games--different stages, different characters, different animals to ride, different magic system, etc. Both involve quasi-medieval adventures to kill a huge dude with an axe, animals of some sort to ride and bonus stages that involve getting items via violence to mooks, but the similarities end about there.

Posted: 1/7/2010 12:44 AM

Quote

Mukki

Skilled player (1090)

Joined: 8/26/2006
Posts: 1139
Location: United Kingdom

After noticing trazz's comments in this thread I've decided to update my progress here. Despite lack of updates I have been working on this consistently for over a year now, but due to the nature of the game progress is incredibly slow. This WIP is a few months old now and is a something of a Frankenstein .gmv of the best I have of these levels. The final run should look quite different to this, although it may not be much faster. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/632726120/goldenaxe.gmv Level 1 is 6 frames faster than my previous WIP in level and 21 frames faster in the bonus stage than that WIP. Overall, by the end of Level 3 I am 155 frames faster than the currently published movie (Level 1 = 54 frames, Level 2 = 64 frames, Level 3 = 37 frames). The improvement comes from three main sources; changes in battle strategy, optimising screen scrolling and a mid-air slashing trick I discovered The midair slashing trick allows you to manipulate the enemy AI to move closer to you. This can be done by perfectly timing normal slashes while in the air before hitting with the downwards stab. Usually this can save 1 - 3 frames per use. Currently I am redoing the first three levels once more because I think that there may be more promise in optimising screen scrolling than I previously thought, plus I think that a few strategies that I would love to work may be possible if I keep trying. In addition I'd like to make further studies into the AI. Level 3 should be improved further as I lose 7 frames in the bonus. Also, I'd like to change some stylistic choices as many are the same as trazz's, which are great but I'd like to think up something more original. Originally, I was going to keep progress to myself, but these above tests may take a while and then I need to TAS final versions of levels 4 and 7 which will be difficult so it could be several months before this is submitted. I'd quite like some feedback on how this is looking as it is difficult to work on something for so long without any. Enjoy the WIP!

http://tasvideos.org/Mukki.html

Posted: 1/11/2010 11:34 PM

Quote

Pikachu

Former player

Joined: 4/17/2009
Posts: 88

saving this here for future use..

Golden Axe 2 Genesis Magic Stats "Golden Axe II (W) [!]"
+-----------+-----------+-------------+------------+-------------+------------+
| character | bookspent | magicdamage | framecount | dmgperframe | dmgperbook |
|-----------+-----------+-------------+------------+-------------+------------|
|           | 00FF0883  | 00FF2E5E    |            |             |            |
| women     |         1 |           4 |        404 |        9.90 |       4.00 |
| women     |         2 |           6 |        404 |       14.85 |       3.00 |
| women     |         3 |           8 |        404 |       19.80 |       2.67 |
| women     |         4 |          12 |        356 |       33.71 |       3.00 |
| women     |         5 |          20 |        361 |       55.40 |       4.00 |
| women     |         6 |          28 |        414 |       67.63 |       4.67 |
| women     |         7 |          36 |        522 |       68.97 |       5.14 |
| women     |         8 |          48 |        483 |       99.38 |       6.00 |
| blueman   |         1 |           4 |        329 |       12.16 |       4.00 |
| blueman   |         2 |           6 |        332 |       18.07 |       3.00 |
| blueman*  |         3 |           8 |        445 |       17.98 |       2.67 |
| blueman   |         4 |          16 |        411 |       38.93 |       4.00 |
| blueman   |         5 |          24 |        560 |       42.86 |       4.80 |
| dwarf     |         1 |           4 |        374 |       10.70 |       4.00 |
| dwarf     |         2 |           8 |        370 |       21.62 |       4.00 |
| dwarf     |         3 |          12 |        370 |       32.43 |       4.00 |
| dwarf     |         4 |          20 |        358 |       55.87 |       5.00 |
+-----------+-----------+-------------+------------+-------------+------------+
frame count is first battle stance frame to idle player frame					
* blueman's level 3 spell is unique as it throws ALL enemies in to pit/pile					
it is unlikely infinite magic glitch is useful as it takes so long to perform					
1 magic book is given to player for free when they use a continue

Posted: 1/12/2010 1:55 PM

Quote

Aqfaq

Editor, Expert player (2459)

Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!

Mukki wrote:

I'd quite like some feedback on how this is looking as it is difficult to work on something for so long without any.

Well, I gave it a quick glance. Might as well be optimal. Can't see anything to complain about and it felt fresh even after seeing many previous versions of the run. Good luck with the rest of it!

Posted: 1/16/2010 8:05 PM

Quote

Eratyx

Active player (253)

Joined: 12/3/2008
Posts: 61

FYI, their names are Ax Battler (broadsword man), Tyris Flare (longsword woman) and Gilius Thunderhead (axe dwarf). Why they gave the name "Ax Battler" to someone whose PARTNER uses an axe is beyond me. I'm most looking forward to the GA2 run, as it was one of several games I obsessed over in childhood. I'm really digging the look of a buff man and his buff woman partner taking out enemies totally in sync with each other.

Posted: 3/6/2011 8:15 PM

Quote

Utterrandomness

Joined: 3/1/2011
Posts: 7

I started making a tas for Golden Axe 3. I have only done a portion of level 1 so far. http://rapidshare.com/files/451271331/Golden_Axe_3.gmv Any tips on how to improve my work so far would be greatly appreciated.

Posted: 3/7/2011 3:15 AM

Quote

ventuz

He/Him

Player (123)

Joined: 10/4/2004
Posts: 940

Utterrandomness wrote:

I started making a tas for Golden Axe 3. I have only done a portion of level 1 so far. http://rapidshare.com/files/451271331/Golden_Axe_3.gmv Any tips on how to improve my work so far would be greatly appreciated.

Look good, but no idea how did you do it in just 94 rerecording count.

Posted: 3/7/2011 12:33 PM

Quote

Utterrandomness

Joined: 3/1/2011
Posts: 7

Sorry, I forgot to mention that it is a superplay, NOT a speedrun. Maybe that would explain the low rerecord count, a little. I also like to play this game as a human (if that is the phrase), so I know a reasonable amount about how things are done. Another thing is, that I actually made one before this, and got through most of the game (with the other two characters), but because I was learning tricks throughout the run, it wasn't very good until about level 4. I cancelled the run about halfway through the last level, because I wasn't happy with it. I guess I might as well share it here, but you'll probably see why I decided to cancel it. http://rapidshare.com/files/451375991/Golden_Axe_3.gmv

Posted: 3/7/2011 6:39 PM

Quote

BigBoct

He/Him

Editor, Former player

Joined: 8/9/2007
Posts: 1692
Location: Tiffin/Republic, OH

I'd suggest you use DeHackEd's Microstorgage script for sharing your movie files. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php

Previous Name: boct1584

Posted: 3/10/2011 7:05 PM

Quote

Utterrandomness

Joined: 3/1/2011
Posts: 7

Right, I finished the first level: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1758485898/Golden%20Axe%203.gmv Please tell me what you think needs improving, and what looks good. Thanks :p

Posted: 3/10/2011 10:32 PM

Quote

ventuz

He/Him

Player (123)

Joined: 10/4/2004
Posts: 940

Pretty good, but I think I noticed that some area you wait for enemy to come to you. If you're planning to submit movie, most people prefer that top objective is beat fastest time (or #1 being 100% items or no-death, etc.. then #2 being fastest time). Spots I notice you lose time on: ~1730 - Dancing sword guy, then you had to move him closer to co-op attack ~4110 - Sword guy attacking cat, but enemy was there ready to be attacked - I think you could have used co-op attack there. ~8600 - Both standing in middle waiting for enemies to get closer, I would understand if you use co-op attack, but you didn't why is that?

Posted: 3/10/2011 11:17 PM

Quote

Utterrandomness

Joined: 3/1/2011
Posts: 7

Mentioned on previous page: This is a superplay, not a speedrun. I guess I am going for a slightly clownish approach to the run, to try to make it more entertaining. Maybe this hasn't worked. Had I been going for speed, I'd be using the co-op attack almost everywhere EXCEPT the towing trailer area. ~1730: maybe I could've done something more interesting there ~4110: I just wanted to show a weird trick where a grabbed character is immune to all attacks apart from the enemy grabbing him. Seemed like a good thing to include in a superplay ~8600: I wanted to "surprise" you a little by faking a co-op set-up, with the panther's "projectile" attack, and also making the swordsman jump out of the way, as a minature stunt type thing :/ As a superplay, how is it?

Posted: 3/12/2011 9:52 PM

Quote

Utterrandomness

Joined: 3/1/2011
Posts: 7

Right, I have axed (ahem) the Superplay attempt, in place of a speedrun attempt. Got the first level + bonus room done today, in approximately 2 minutes 25 seconds. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/826851347/Golden%20Axe%203.gmv So, is this any good?

Posted: 6/3/2013 11:09 PM

Quote

DecafGrub47393

Joined: 4/23/2013
Posts: 59

What is the fastest 2 player combo for Golden Axe? I want to make a 2 player TAS with BizHawk.