In light of charles1q2w's and sonicmason's recent submissions:
These seem to be obvious griefing submissions that have no real point but to take the time and effort of the rest of us to review. While I understand keeping submissions open, shouldn't there be some sort of restriction to new users posting submissions? If anyone that isn't already part of this comminuty wants to submit anything, they should really have some sorta of access.. Even if it means contacting a Mod for this access.. They may have some amazing input with a new 10 second improvement on NES Donkey Kong, but chances they are only able to find that new exploit from this site in the first place.
Is there any reason that the current submission process saves time or effort? Is it easier to just reject multiple submissions on the same day that clearly dont follow the rules? This seems to be a problem that is occuring more often each month.
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
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I am fully in favor of having a post resriction in place, so that new-comers need to have X number of posts before being allowed to submit. 10 would probably be a sufficient number, high enough that the average troll would find it not worth their while, but low enough to not hinder someone with a genuinely good submission. It's also easier to spot suspicious accounts this way, so that questionable members are known before they submit anything.
This plan seems to discourage newcomers, especially foreign newcomers. I might add that some of the best Japanese TASers do not frequent the forums.
It is difficult for many of them to translate the entire site and figure out every little detail on various pages in various paragraphs.
I'll try to outline a few things that could help with this problem.
I think new members should be limited to 1 submission a week or something to prevent multiple failed submissions in a day. If they mess something up they can contact an administrator.
The submitting page might not link to the workbench forum last time I checked. I'm not sure all of these authors find the location of their feedback. (Maybe I'm misremembering this, I haven't submitted in a while. If this isn't true, ignore.)
One of these pages needs a short checklist right at the top.
http://tasvideos.org/SubmitMovie.htmlhttp://tasvideos.org/SubmissionInstructions.html
1: Did you pick the right Rom version (U) [!] (Unless there is a good reason.)
2: Did you start from Power On? Do not start from a save state.
3: Do you beat all records in existence? (See here: http://tasvideos.org/Movies.html)
4: Is the movie done to the best of your ability? If the movie could be done visibly faster if you put in more effort, it probably will be rejected.
Modify that, maybe add a few things, and translate that into numerous languages and place it there.
Trolls will happen, I think some foreigners with language barriers are just unclear on what the standard is here.
These are suggestions. I don't think preventing new users from submitting is a good solution for the reasons mentioned above.
I suggest something slightly different: for users with a postcount of less than 50, or submissions with a rerecord ratio less than a certain fraction of the mean, the submission is initially only visible to core users. It would be a kind of probation; if the sub is deemed not-junk, then it becomes visible to everyone else for actual judging. If not, then it never happened.
This way, trolls will think they're being ignored, and valid submissions may not even be delayed to any noticeable degree.
Edit: and we can't expect that people will read instructions, even if they can read them.
I suggest something slightly different: for users with a postcount of less than 50, or submissions with a rerecord ratio less than a certain fraction of the mean, the submission is initially only visible to core users. It would be a kind of probation; if the sub is deemed not-junk, then it becomes visible to everyone else for actual judging. If not, then it never happened.
This way, trolls will think they're being ignored, and valid submissions may not even be delayed to any noticeable degree.
Edit: and we can't expect that people will read instructions, even if they can read them.
You make a good point and have good idea going. How about if somebody never posts, but is continually making good submissions? Maybe include a hidden option for staff that will allow them to turn on that their submissions are visible from the get-go?
Edit: One thing I must say about the rerecord limitation, I think that shouldn't be used, since it's easy to have a screwed up rerecord count by cut/paste or hexediting.
Maybe something simpler: First submission by a user goes to the quarantine section only visible to core users. If the core users approve that it's a legit submission, it will be released as a normal submission, and afterwards any subsequent submissions by that user are processed normally like now.
Edit: One thing I must say about the rerecord limitation, I think that shouldn't be used, since it's easy to have a screwed up rerecord count by cut/paste or hexediting.
I think it'd be a confidence formula, rather than a series of black-and-white checks.
Also, Warp is right. Just dumping that bit altogether would accomplish the same thing with less work and probably a smaller margin of error.
What happens if they try to submit another video when the first is still hidden? Denial page?
It goes to the same quarantine section. Only after one of the user's submissions has been approved, any subsequent submissions will be handled normally.
Maybe something simpler: First submission by a user goes to the quarantine section only visible to core users. If the core users approve that it's a legit submission, it will be released as a normal submission, and afterwards any subsequent submissions by that user are processed normally like now.
That sound good to me
Obviously trolls dont make it trough publication anyway, so to clear up 99% of the junk, simply prevent a new user to submit as much he want, until they are real players, i dont think theres any troll in players so they can have unlimited submit
The 1 week limit was also interresting idea, who submit several movie in the same day anyway...? beside trolls... 99% of the time
The 1 week limit was also interresting idea, who submit several movie in the same day anyway...? beside trolls...
There may be legit reasons for submitting more often. Someone could eg. accidentally submit the wrong movie, then notice it, cancel and resubmit the correct one. Or maybe he noticed a small improvement possible at the end of the movie.
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
arukAdo wrote:
who submit several movie in the same day anyway...? beside trolls... 99% of the time
I have several times, but of course it was after I was an established member of the site.
I also think that a quaranteen type approach for a users first submission would probably work well, although I'm unsure of the difficulty in implementing something like that.
mmbossman, I don't think from a coder's standpoint it should be that hard. I mean, the rest of the stuff done with the submission is more complicated then this, so I don't think this will be an issue.
Agreed but most times when theres multiple submission its just cooky
Tought of course i speak of NON-player people
The "leggit" reasons (agreed there is somes) are likely to be more used by players
Both idea are not realy working good together i guess, so i would vote to the quarantine area idea
One thing I must say about the rerecord limitation, I think that shouldn't be used, since it's easy to have a screwed up rerecord count by cut/paste or hexediting.
What are the odds that a troll will know about hex editing and the nifty things that it can potenially achieve? Many of the experienced players on the site don't even know how to hex edit.
Preventing someone whose never posted or whose only made a handful of posts from submitting is a bad idea. Unless there is something to prevent more than one rejected submission being made in a day
One thing I must say about the rerecord limitation, I think that shouldn't be used, since it's easy to have a screwed up rerecord count by cut/paste or hexediting.
What are the odds that a troll will know about hex editing and the nifty things that it can potenially achieve? Many of the experienced players on the site don't even know how to hex edit.
That's the beauty of an unobtrusive catch-all; It doesn't matter what the odds are.
(Also, you're quoting SirVG, not me.)
I think the only idea that isn't overly restrictive is letting submit only one movie per few days for people with rank below "member". Putting a submission in quarantine visible only to core audience is kind of missing/defeating the purpose: it will still clog up the 'bench until it's reviewed, and it's mainly (read: only) the core audience that actually cares about it.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!
How about just giving a few more people the access to judging movies? They would be "trash judges" who would use their power exclusively for rejecting/removing obvious junk submissions.
Are you sure it will be possible to come up with an implementation that won't compromise the site's integrity and/or reputation? Realistically, the amount of judges we have at the moment is sufficient, and it's not a problem for them to reject bad submissions; what I think we should be aiming for, if anything, is reducing their amount in a [semi-]automatic way. In other words, not let them appear on the workbench, instead of removing them from it.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
I really think a mountain is being made out of a molehill here. Is this really such a disturbing problem that it requires some sort of special system that imposes restrictions on users? I, at least, don't think so.
Putting a submission in quarantine visible only to core audience is kind of missing/defeating the purpose: it will still clog up the 'bench until it's reviewed, and it's mainly (read: only) the core audience that actually cares about it.
Note that it would happen only for the first submission of a new user. Thus it would probably not happen very often. The amount of work the "quarantine judges" would have to do would probably not be at all excessive.
Does anyone have any statistics on how many first-time submitters there are per some timespan (eg. per month or something)?
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1977
Location: Making an escape
I see that the word "troll" has been mentioned seven times on the previous page (not including repeats in quotes). I'll invoke Hanlon's Razor here and say that I honestly don't think that's it trolling, just ignorance. People misunderstand the purpose of the site all the time, submitting incomplete runs with only the loosest of tool assistance, but I rarely seen anyone doing it to be mean; the closest thing I've seen has been this charles dude. This is a problem that won't go away, because people will continue to not read what is there, and if they do, they will misinterpret it or disregard it*. We'll just have to live with it until it truly does become unbearable.
So yes, I'm with Kyrimys: The problem is being overblown right now.
*Not for trolling purposes; I have seen some of these people say, "Well, I just prefer to show off my own skill, that's all."
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
I really think a mountain is being made out of a molehill here. Is this really such a disturbing problem that it requires some sort of special system that imposes restrictions on users? I, at least, don't think so.
This, this, a thousand times this. Just ban the idiots who submit pointless submissions, no need to recode the entire fucking system because of two bad apples.
Is it really that hard to see a submission, see the text and movie data, and ignore it until a judge can reject it? I would certainly hope not.
The submitting page might not link to the workbench forum last time I checked. I'm not sure all of these authors find the location of their feedback. (Maybe I'm misremembering this, I haven't submitted in a while. If this isn't true, ignore.)
Yes, it wouldn't hurt to make the "Discuss this submission" links more visible. Maybe add a link in big colored text that says something like, "Want to read what other people think of your movie? Click here!"
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
I agree with Kirkq... 1 submission / day for non-players is enough to solve the so-called problem, and not obstruct the accessibility. It's not a big problem anyway though.
