EDIT: Currently under discussion it seems. (Need more feedback from others.)
Want to make money TASing? Looking for a game to TAS? Check out the bounty list below.
Communication should be done between the user TASing and the user offering the bounty to make sure conditions are agreed upon. It is assumed that users will either use Paypal or negotiate some other form of payment. No one makes any guarantees to the bounty being paid out except the user offering it. We can't be responsible for people who don't hold to their word.
It is my hope that the requested videos are for the most part publishable material, as this only makes the site content better, but smaller demonstrations of unpublishable material are also acceptable. I would prefer that this list stick to games currently TASable, and somewhat substantial offers. ($1 is kind of stupid unless you're adding on to someone else's already placed offer.)
A case that I believe needs stated is that the bounty should be given to the first submitted case satisfying the requirements. It doesn't make sense for someone to make a great movie only to be obsoleted by ten frames a couple weeks later and have their bounty taken. I would not encourage 'fastest time by X date' for this reason.
Clarifications:
1: Game, System, Version?
2: Run type: 100%, any%, glitched, demonstration? (If a save glitch is found that skips most of the game, are you still planning on paying out?)
3: Does the run have to be accepted to qualify? (What conditions otherwise?)
4: Run time requirements?
5: Due date (Give a rough due date, you can always extend it.)
(Idea taken from the SDA thread. I will try to maintain this page fairly regularly.)
(Thread layout comments? I kind of just threw this together.)
Bounties:Example, not in effect yet.Secret of Mana
- $10 - Kirkq
- Must use 3 players if it provides the fastest completion, must be published.
- Due by January 1, 2012 (will probably extend)
Who will claim the unofficial title? (Courtesy of Kyman.)
- $10 - Kirkq (I'll make it $20 if you impress me. =p)
Disregarding the above awesomeness, I think we should not bring money into TASVideos's process of content generation.
There are two reasons I'm not opposed to the same happening at SDA (though I don't endorse it either).
First of all, SDA is inherently more competitive due to the nature of unassisted speedrunning (where TASes are better seen as collaborative work).
Second, making a good unassisted run takes physical effort — something not present in creating a tool-assisted movie. In a TAS, basically everything is a question of time the player is willing to spend on a project. Depending on their knowledge, they may even have most of the job done for them using Lua scripts and somesuch. While a finished product does benefit community in a way, it also creates an unnecessary motivation anchor that may psychologically devalue regular contributions.
I think, instead of pouring money into something that is already appreciated by hundreds and thousands of people, they're much better spent donated towards development of emulators and their functions, and to TASVideos itself.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player
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I like all of moozooh's points which makes me (not 100%) agree with him I guess. Though we did have monetary awards this year, at least those are for any specific TAS or TASer. They work towards motivating everyone in general, and push for creativity & productivity.
It is obvious for me to say the money is better spent toward a site donation, but aside from bias, I say this because:
1) It goes to ensure the long term site existence
2) Goes to upgrading the site features & resources
3) Yearly award prize pool (thereby encouraging every to TAS more, not just 1 person on 1 specific TAS)
4) Contributions to emulator developement (specifically rerecording & related tools)
Having said all this, if people want to work out monetary bounties between each other, then that is a freedom people have, so by all means. I am curious to see how this plays out.
First of all, SDA is inherently more competitive due to the nature of unassisted speedrunning (where TASes are better seen as collaborative work).
While it is collaborative work, and we acknowledge the works of the authors before us, sometimes an improvement or a run is due and no one is willing to step up. I would hope that bounties lead to runs on overdue or somewhat high demand content, that wouldn't get produced otherwise.
moozooh wrote:
In a TAS, basically everything is a question of time the player is willing to spend on a project. Depending on their knowledge, they may even have most of the job done for them using Lua scripts and somesuch.
Effort is definitely an issue, but I would say that anything that gets published is progress towards a great run. Even if a run doesn't meet my expectations fully, at least effort was given towards it that makes it easier for a future TASer to build upon.
moozooh wrote:
While a finished product does benefit community in a way, it also creates an unnecessary motivation anchor that may psychologically devalue regular contributions.
I don't see this becoming that radically popular that only bounty runs end up getting submitted. I see this as a way of motivating people to work on difficult runs that users want to see, but players may find extremely difficult to do well.
moozooh wrote:
I think, instead of pouring money into something that is already appreciated by hundreds and thousands of people, they're much better spent donated towards development of emulators and their functions, and to TASVideos itself.
While I completely agree with this, sometimes people aren't really motivated to put money forth without seeing something directly in return. If a player chooses to be modest and have the money donated towards the site, then it's win win. Some probably will, some won't. I doubt the amount of money going into bounties affects the amount getting donated to the site.
There are always requested runs, people don't take any merit from them.
Joined: 8/26/2006
Posts: 1139
Location: United Kingdom
A few comments:
moozooh wrote:
First of all, SDA is inherently more competitive due to the nature of unassisted speedrunning (where TASes are better seen as collaborative work).
This is true, in relation to SDA, where the monetary gains from bounties represent some sort of site accolade. A reward for succeeding ahead of the competition. In essence, I'd argue that our TAS Awards prize money is similar in that it is meritorious in nature. I don't think that such a thing can immediately be said of TAS Bounties as they may take on a quite different character (of course, time may make them substantially similar). TASes are not competitive and so a bounty may more closely represent a gift or other similar gratuitous disposition for fulfilling a wish or desire. It is rare for two TASers to run a game simultaneously with the intention of being 'first past the post'. It seems to be a tasvideos.org convention to avoid working on a project if someone else already is without at least PM'ing the TASer so as to ascertain whether or not it is still being worked on or if they can take over or perhaps collaborate. This seems to exist even though it is generally contrary to site policy ("there is no such thing as 'ownership' of a game/run"). If a player is actively posting WIPs in the forum it is rare for another TASer to do the same at the same time while ignoring the other contributions. Bounties could arguably alter this, but I think that the very nature of TASing precludes such a result as both runs are likely to have improvements that the other does not and so collaboration will result in all but the most Saturnised of scenarios. Therefore, there is unlikely to be competition, or at the very least of a marginal degree when compared to SDA, and so the bounties will not be compromised by competitive attitudes that may make them detrimental to the site and are more likely to exist as gifts/donations to the TASer and his project rather than a reward for competition. So arguably TAS 'bounty' is probably the wrong word to use here, TASer donation/something like that seems more appropriate.
moozooh wrote:
Second, making a good unassisted run takes physical effort — something not present in creating a tool-assisted movie. In a TAS, basically everything is a question of time the player is willing to spend on a project. Depending on their knowledge, they may even have most of the job done for them using Lua scripts and somesuch. While a finished product does benefit community in a way, it also creates an unnecessary motivation anchor that may psychologically devalue regular contributions.
I generally agree with the potential psychological risks, however I think that "basically everything is a question of time the player is willing to spend on a project" could make the benefits of a bounties system somewhat game specific. Games that require considerable time and effort, or are somewhat underplayed, could greatly benefit from an added incentive. It is not hard to imagine games that, no matter how great a run could be, have disproportionate 'effort required' to 'motivation of a sane person' ratio. Until recently an All Souls run of Aria of Sorrow would have been a great example of a category that could have benefited from an added incentive. We are not losing anything from not having added incentives and most great TASes will be made nonetheless, but in certain situations an added incentive could just be enough to tease out a great run that we may not be otherwise get to see.
adelikat wrote:
It is obvious for me to say the money is better spent toward a site donation, but aside from bias, I say this because:
1) It goes to ensure the long term site existence
2) Goes to upgrading the site features & resources
3) Yearly award prize pool (thereby encouraging every to TAS more, not just 1 person on 1 specific TAS)
4) Contributions to emulator developement (specifically rerecording & related tools)
If bounties were to be official, a semi-serious suggestion would be to say that the site could 'tax' the bounties so that money was being put back into the community as a whole and no one person was walking away with the whole pot (i.e. many community members may contribute ideas/suggestions to the run, encoders take time to publish the run, the run is being hosted on the server. It could be justified...).
In short, I think that the idea deserves some attention in order to gauge some interest and see what people come up with. To get the ball rolling I've requested a few runs that I'd like to see:
I've followed Kirkq's clarifications, minus the due date because I don't see that as completely necessary:
Clarifications:
1: Game, System, Version?
2: Run type: 100%, any%, glitched, demonstration? (If a save glitch is found that skips most of the game, are you still planning on paying out?)
3: Does the run have to be accepted to qualify? (What conditions otherwise?)
4: Run time requirements?
Secret of Mana
I'll throw $10 on this under the same conditions as Kirkq.
NES Metal Gear$10
1: Metal Gear (NES or MSX)
2: any%
3: Must be accepted as an improvement to the currently published movie and worthy of at least an 8.5 technical rating from me.
4: Your run should aim for the fastest time possible, however I am more interested in seeing a visually different improvement (i.e. new innovative routes) rather than optimisations. It is nature of improvement, rather than size which is of importance here.
Gex 64$10
1: Gex 3D/64 (preferably the PSX version, but the N64 will suffice).
2: any%
3: Must be accepted as an improvement to the currently published movie and worthy of at least an 8 technical rating from me.
4: I expect about a minute of improvement at the very least, but more should be possible and I'm more interested in surprising new tricks/strategies.
Tomb Raider 4: The Last Revelation$10
1: Tomb Raider 4: The Last Revelation PSX
2: any%
3: Must be accepted and be worthy of at least a 7 technical rating from me.
4: I'm not entirely sure what a good TAS time would be, but I'd guess it to be around the 2 hour mark, if not comfortably less.
Final Fantasy 7$10
1: Final Fantasy 7 PSX
2: any%
3: Must be accepted for publication and worthy of at least a 7 technical rating from me.
4: Again I'm not sure what a good TAS time would be
Final Fantasy 8$10
1: Final Fantasy 8 PSX
2: any%
3: Must be accepted for publication and worthy of at least a 7 technical rating from me.
4: Again I'm not sure what a good TAS time would be
Joined: 11/4/2007
Posts: 1772
Location: Australia, Victoria
I've actually considered holding a bounty myself... though, I was actually considering a much higher amount of money. I have been considering $100 (If I can attain that amount) if someone can make a publish worthy Somari TAS... though, I guess people will TAS for far far less.
I'm surprised.
Joined: 11/9/2008
Posts: 108
Location: New Orleans, LA U.S.A.
finally, and official place for this. I feel so helpless reposting this bounty all the time on the poor solar jetman thread....
1: SOLAR JETMAN, NES (any version)
2: Run type: 100% (all worlds and at least one of every item collected [and preferably used also])
3: Must be moderately optimized and not boring
4: anticipating a LONG run :D
payout: 20 BUX!!!!($20)
highest bounty yet
oh and i got 2 bux on that FF7 run so bump that to $12
I'm still looking for more feedback on this thread. Post if you have a positive or negative opinion of it.
Regarding due date, I may as well just put the date posted.
djchilxxn wrote:
2: Run type: 100% (all worlds and at least one of every item collected [and preferably used also])
Are you sure this is the best definition for 100%? I'm not going to be a fan of runs that are almost publishable but not quite due to user stipulations.
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
I'm in favor of this idea under a few conditions:
The parties involved (TASer and payer) understand that their transaction is totally on private terms without any way for the site administrators to control or enforce deals made between two individual parties.
Public bounties should be placed on games/categories that have a decent shot at being published, as the entire reason for bounties should be to increase the quality content of the site. Random categories (uses only weapon X, takes normal route, etc) should just be discussed through a PM.
I don't think a time-line is an important criteria. As long as the person placing the bounty hasn't retracted it, it should continue to be fair game. Still, anyone interested in participating should confirm with the person placing the bounty the terms and conditions before starting. They are, after all, the ones paying the cash.
Since this site is run on donations, I do feel that some of this money could be spent more productively, but I also don't believe that the people who are placing the bounties will have to choose between a bounty and donating to keep the site up and running. If they're that hard up for cash, paying other people to play video games may not be the best investment. So I'd vote no for a site "tax", that just opens an new and ugly can of worms.
As for moozooh's points, I don't see the motivational factor becoming an issue unless the bounties become very big. Most of the bounties thus far have been $10, and even for a short TAS, that's not much of a monetary return on a time investment. Most of these bounties will probably be seen as a minor reward at the end of a large project, in a similar way the end year awards are an added bonus for hard work.
All in all, I don't know how successful this idea will be, but I think it's interesting and safe enough to give it a try. So overall I'm in favor of this thread and the suggestions made by the bounty-ers so far :)
Thats a good point Mmbossman made. I don't think $10-20 is really much on an incentive. You would have just as much success just flat out requesting someone to do a run. This is not Twin Galaxies where members tend to be older and have high paying jobs or run successful businesses. So you can't expect people to throw round 10k bounties (except Angerfist) for submitting or improving a current movie. Believe me, if I had money I'd be happy to throw around 1k+ bounties for various runs and achivements.
I'd say make a bounty run section or something like that where users can publiclicly place bounties on their desired runs. No matter if the run is also publishworthy among the ones on the 'main site', if the bounty has been paid out, the run would then be published in the bounty run section. Just a random idea to think about.
It makes more sense to only set bounties on runs that would also be publishable, but on the other hand it doesn't make a lot of sense to make up restrictions on what people should be allowed to pay other people money for.
In a way, if the bounties were large enough to become almost a primary motivational factor (or even a very large secondary motivation) it could turn ugly, with people racing to complete TASs, disclosing no information and perhaps harbouring grudges afterwards.
Perhaps that's an argument in favour of keeping the monetary reward:time spent ratio fairly low.
On a similar note, subjective criteria (worthy of x score from the bounty payer or even the idea of being publishable) could cause hard feelings if a run is borderline. Instead, I'd suggest that you try to suggest a time goal. Of course, that could have its own theoretical problems (difficulty of deciding the goal/potential for folk to do bare minimum...)
To not be a total Debbie Downer, I'll add that I love all you guys.
I'm just some random guy. Don't let my words get you riled - I have my opinions but they're only mine.
Joined: 11/9/2008
Posts: 108
Location: New Orleans, LA U.S.A.
Are you sure this is the best definition for 100%? I'm not going to be a fan of runs that are almost publishable but not quite due to user stipulations.
these are just suggestions. If you haven't been paying attention to the solar jetman thread, I'm just anxious to see this game run with more than the basic shooting laser. 100% would be ideal for me, but if the person accepting the bounty wanted to modify my specs for the purpose of producing a more palatable run i would have no problems with that and would still offer the full bounty.
I agree that bounties should be low, I mean we are hobbyists aren't we? The main motivation for running games should be -- running games! if an extra ten or twenty bucks is floating at the end of the tunnel, though, it may make running games that are less likely to be published a less futile endeavor (esp. if there is a bounty section featured on the site - however i doubt adelikat [or bisqwit] would go for that :)
how about somebody make a well designed bounty site.. this sounds like something I might be capable of maintaining actually (since i'm a TAS-impotent mac user)
KIRKQ BY THE WAY - that .gif is PRICELESS :D:D:D
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
djchilxxn wrote:
how about somebody make a well designed bounty site.. this sounds like something I might be capable of maintaining actually (since i'm a TAS-impotent mac user)
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
I think this is a bit problematic. It is hard to estimate a time for an optimized TAS. A too low time will lead to never paying the bounty, as no matter how much work is put into it, the set time simply cannot be achieved. A too high time is probably far more common... a new trick, strategy or glitch can significantly lower a time, and mean that no real optimization (the most time consuming part) is really needed. If people are making a TAS to claim a bounty, it is even dangerous to fully optimize it, as others might claim the bounty before you with an unoptimized verison. I don't think bounties will lead to better quality TASes.
For the record, I have discussed this briefly with others in previous months, and got around to posting on it possibly from reading either that post or some other post. It's not like you were the first one with the idea.
NES Metal Gear$10
1: Metal Gear (NES or MSX)
2: any%
3: Must be accepted as an improvement to the currently published movie and worthy of at least an 8.5 technical rating from me.
4: Your run should aim for the fastest time possible, however I am more interested in seeing a visually different improvement (i.e. new innovative routes) rather than optimisations. It is nature of improvement, rather than size which is of importance here.
Here's the problem with that: I could drive myself crazy doing a Metal Gear TAS and submit it and then you could say "Ehhhh, Technical rating: 8.4" and now I've done it for nothing.
Actually (after reading that thread) I've realised how cool the idea of an official bounty system that deals in points rather than cash would be.
Though these two ideas aren't mutually exclusive, I definitely think that one should be explored further.
I'm just some random guy. Don't let my words get you riled - I have my opinions but they're only mine.
Joined: 11/9/2008
Posts: 108
Location: New Orleans, LA U.S.A.
Bezman wrote:
Actually (after reading that thread) I've realised how cool the idea of an official bounty system that deals in points rather than cash would be.
Though these two ideas aren't mutually exclusive, I definitely think that one should be explored further.
yea dude that would be bad ass! and if it comes down to it the points could be divided up between applicable players with moderator help (if somebody finished the bountied run and other players were claiming a stake due to help or secrets or whatever, it's not money so I'm sure compromises would be reached).
this sounds FUN!!!
Who will claim the unofficial title? (Courtesy of Kyman.)
