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Greetings,
It's been well over a year since I last did a TAS and I figured I'd try something that's never been done before (and is hopefully a bit better TAS choice than High Speed - no more unskippable cutscenes! :) It doesn't look like a speedrun of any kind exists for Otocky which is a shame as any game described as being a musical shoot-em' up deserves some attention. With that said here's an Otocky WIP which completes the first level and the first boss using fceux 2.1.2 in 6286 frames (01:44.59):
http://sonic.net/~ac/tas/Otocky_WIP-dwangoAC.fm2
The interesting thing about this particular game is that due to its auto-sidescrolling nature the real intrigue is in having as much musical fun as possible so long as all enemies are dealt with and all items are collected. The BOSS battles are not autoscrolling which means there is still an opportunity for optimization. In other words, no TAS would ever need to be the same on this game leading to potentially high reTASability (if you'll pardon my lingual abuse).
Anyway, I'd love to hear some feedback. I've been rather out of touch since 2008 so if there's something else I should be doing when posting this TAS please let me know.
Edit: Since I haven't gotten any feedback in the past couple of days I took a very rough stab ad encoding the movie. It's an ugly .avi for the moment and can be found here:
[EDIT: encode removed; Antoids provided a much better encode below]
Please let me know what you think. Thanks!
A.C.
******
I have mixed opinions. Up until about 0:50 it was pretty solid. It got a bit worse musically in my opinion after you grabbed the Clavi.
I'm not sure what note range you have (8 notes it seems?), but would it be possible to play ocarina themes or old NES game themes?
The TAS itself is quite bland. The stages have little action and the boss you fought, though seemingly optimal, wasn't exciting.
Musically it has potential, but I'm not sure how much potential. I would only watch this run for the interesting musical aspect, so that is probably what you should pay the most attention to. (while being optimal at the same time) From my viewing thus far, I don't think I would consider it publishable, but if you think you can do more with the music, I may reconsider. See what you can do I suppose.
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Kirkq wrote:
I'm not sure what note range you have (8 notes it seems?), but would it be possible to play ocarina themes or old NES game themes?
To always ensure the music generated by the player sounds good the available note choices are from the same chord. When starting with the organ, the following notes are played depending on the direction fired (from memory, I may be a bit off):
DL: C below middle
D: C
L: E
R: G
U: C above middle
UL: E above middle
DR: G above middle
UR: C
Based on the http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Otocky/Walkthrough guide the first level is apparently unique as it is "...the only stage to feature music which changes based on how many notes you have collected." I'm not quite sure which chord-anchored notes become available as the level progresses but they definitely change. Based on this it seems like the ability to play specific NES music may be rather limited but I bet some interesting ditties could be put together nonetheless. I'm currently experimenting with TASEdit and I've found that different notes with the same instrument causes no desync but because the different instruments have different characteristics it's not possible to change the instrument that's being played. In other words, sticking to only one instrument for a particular segment will make TASEdit-style editing possible without desyncing leading to a more musically pleasing and entertaining run.
Your comments are all valid and are exactly what I had been concerned about myself. I'll play around a bit and see what improvements can be made. Thanks for the feedback,
A.C.
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With the release of FCEUX 2.1.3 it is now possible to use TASEdit with an FDS game a little bit easier - TASEdit doesn't recognize the eject/insert or swap sides actions for FDS games so before every time the project was reloaded that portion had to be manually re-performed on exactly the correct frames. Now it's possible to play the movie normally beyond the disk swaps and then engage TASEdit. TASEdit is perfectly suited to this kind of game as it's very useful to be able to go back and change a single note and those kind of changes appear to have no effect on later events, as far as I can tell so far.
It's still frustrating that the note set is limited to match the chord of the background but I'm positive something creative could be done despite the limitations. I've found two different versions of the ROM with different MD5 checksums so I'm picking the one I've seen the most frequently (416d44f0650bc1944610a8696ec8d645) - without any Good Tools I'm not sure if this is the best version or not.
I'm starting to ramble but I just wanted to say that I'm taking this on again thanks to the efforts of the FCEUX development team - special thanks to mart0258 for adding in the TASEdit changes. I'll post again when I have another WIP. Thanks all,
A.C.
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NitroGenesis wrote:
This seems like a cool game for a TAS.
Will you finish it?
I sure hope so. :) I always try to put my family's needs first so I don't have a lot of spare time to work on this TAS but I'd like to finish the entire game and submit it for publication assuming it turns out good enough.
I recently stumbled across this YouTube video of Otocky's free-form mode (which is unlocked when the game is completed) which shows off some of the other levels and instruments starting around 3:15:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uIdWu1CzJ0
There are several instruments and levels demonstrated there that are better than the first level IMHO so what I have to do is make sure that the first level is as entertaining as possible so people stick around for the rest of the levels. As I mentioned in my post above TASEdit should come in really handy - since the weapon (and therefore the instrument being played) can be fired around every 12 frames it's fairly trivial to fire shots every 12 frames, complete the entire level, and then go back and change shots to either not happen to add a "rest" or to make them go in a different direction to choose a different note. Any changes that alter the direction or distance traveled must be carefully handled to avoid de-syncing but in essence this means that it should be theoretically possible to replace many of the notes with alternative notes assuming making the change doesn't prevent a note from being picked up or an enemy from being killed. I make this sound much easier than it will probably be but that's the idea - since this is effectively a railshooter no time can be gained or lost by doing these kinds of edits. FWIW, the first level runs normally at what sounds like 150 BPM with a maximum of 300 shots per minute (shooting every 12 frames = 5 shots in 60 frames x 60 seconds = 300). Assuming 4/4 time I think this means each shot is an 8th note but I need to listen a bit more carefully to make sure I got all of that right.
The boss battles themselves CAN be optimized - the first time through the middle two targets on the boss wouldn't take when I shot at them so I originally set about hitting the top and bottom targets as quickly as possible. I started the boss battle with a different weapon this time and for whatever reason the middle targets worked; I simply fired every 15 frames at whatever target I felt like rather than trying to be right next to one and shaved close to 1,000 frames off of my first WIP. There are hard limits on how often you can fire that appear to change based on the instrument/weapon you are using and there is a hard limit where a maximum of two shots can be on the screen at once so it really didn't matter which target I shot at as long as the shot limit was met.
I'm rambling yet again so without further ado here's an updated WIP that has not yet been edited with TASEdit to replace notes with better sounding ones but already sounds better than the first WIP and completes the boss battle several seconds faster:
http://sonic.net/~ac/tas/Otocky-TASEdit-WIP-dwangoAC.fm2
Sorry for not encoding this one. As always I welcome any feedback on this and if someone feels compelled to do some TASEdit work on the existing file please be my guest. :) Thanks for the interest,
A.C.
******
Fun watching the encode. The game is unfamiliar to me, so other than words of encouragement, I can't do a whole lot to show my support. Regardless, please take a "keep going" and a "I like what I see so far" from me.
I have been noticing talk of TASEdit. An alternative is the Multitrack2.lua script that I have made. I'm pointing it out because, mainly, I worked on it and is pretty functional as it stands. It should be included as part of the latest FCEUX package. It does not record resets, swaps, or any of that other stuff, unfortunately, but one can start the script at any time, and it can work without needing to know what happened since the beginning.
But use whatever is more convenient or familiar to you. Using the Multitrack2.lua script involves learning how to use a new tool, and that rarely goes smoothly at first.
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FatRatKnight wrote:
I have been noticing talk of TASEdit. An alternative is the Multitrack2.lua script that I have made...
Using the Multitrack2.lua script involves learning how to use a new tool, and that rarely goes smoothly at first.
Actually, I had somehow missed the multitrack2.lua script entirely - thank you for letting me know about it. I've spent the last hour reading through the actual .lua script configuration section as well as the help text and I'm positive I'm missing something really, really obvious. The help text is descriptive enough but if you don't mind I'd like to write a very short "start here: do this, then do this" first steps tutorial that can be added to the help text. Of course, I have to fully understand the tool before I can do that so I'm hoping you can give me a hand. :)
The help text says that "As the movie on read-only plays out, the script will pick up its input". This seems to imply that there is no need to go to read+write mode but I could never get any input to stick until I switched the mode. The help text also seems to indicate that the normal input keys will be used ("This script works with the joypad you actually set from FCEUX's config") but frame advancing with the normal keys pressed did not seem to do anything even in read+write mode. I originally assumed that I needed to set the controls at the top of multitrack2.lua to match the controls I had specified in FCEUX but in my testing these keys only worked in read+rwite mode and in that configuration the existing input was always discarded against my will.
Again, I assume that I have misconceptions on how to use the tool but here's what I'm expecting based on the current documentation: I have Activate, Remove, List, and Keys set to Yes so I'm assuming that means that as I advance frame-by-frame through a read-only .fm2 movie any new joypad keys defined in multitrack2.lua that are enabled on a given frame will toggle that button's state on the frame advance edge. What I'm experiencing is that the only way to make the button states take is to switch to read+write mode but this discards any existing keypresses on the frame advance edge which seems to conflict with the "toggle" behavior that's described.
Anyway, if you could clarify how I should be using this I'd be very grateful - once I sort things out I'll write a short HOWTO so others who are new to the tool can start using it quickly. Thanks in advance for the help (and thanks to Antoids for the encode),
A.C.
******
At long last, questions! Beautiful, shining questions! ... Okay, now to actually answer them.
A step-by-step tutorial on my script... Try running the script without any movies running. Savestate, play the game however you like, then loadstate. Let the game run without your interference. It should do stuff exactly as you did before your loadstate. And you're not even running a movie!
Okay, loadstate again. Pick a key to hold down, then frame advance a few frames. If that button was red, it should turn green as you frame-advance. And if green, it will turn red again. It works with the joypad stuff by frame-advance (or when playing at any speed, but that hardly has the control you need), similar to what you should be doing when first creating a TAS like this.
The script keys stuff are, by default, off. When on, tapping one of these keys should change the color of the related button, indicating that the script should press or ignore that button instead of what it had recorded. Meant for precise edits that you don't want to frame advance for yet, or when the keyboard simply doesn't allow so many buttons and FCEUX's auto-hold feels too inconvenient at the time.
Eh, I'm not sure of a good tutorial. The script can keep track of the input by itself independent of what FCEUX is doing at the time.
dwangoac wrote:
What I'm experiencing is that the only way to make the button states take is to switch to read+write mode but this discards any existing keypresses on the frame advance edge which seems to conflict with the "toggle" behavior that's described.
This sounds like you think that Multitrack2.lua is closely linked with FCEUX. It's not, it simply records the joypad into its own independent list as the emulation plays out. When you play a movie on Read-Only as normal, it records this input into the same independent list.
Loading a state in a movie's read+write will get rid of any and all input after that state, in the point of view of FCEUX. In the view of multitrack2.lua, it sees a list of input that the script itself recorded (which FCEUX promptly forgot), and will inject that list it sees to FCEUX, with possible modifications from you.
The script can only record what the movie does in read-only mode -- FCEUX will not allow any other input, whether by player or lua script, to take place. In Read+Write, FCEUX promptly forgets all input that takes place after any given loadstate, but allows player and lua input. The lua is what's remembering the future input, and needs the Read+Write in order to do anything. The movie should playback in a sort of a pseudo-Read-Only, even though FCEUX is in Read+Write, but this type of pseudo-Read-Only allows player input. To me, Read+Write feels more like Write-Only.
In any case, I have now made an attempt at explaining things. It's quite possible I ended up making more of a mess. Further discussion should take place here. (I should fix that up a bit...) I don't exactly want to flood this thread with something unrelated to the game at hand.
Agreed - I'll post at the bottom of that thread with a more detailed reply once I've spent more time using multitrack2 but now that I'm using it properly I wanted to say that this really is an amazing tool. I'll be able to easily compose with this - TASEdit would have allowed the same thing but I'm not a big fan of that whole mouse action business. With Multitrack2 I was able to set the keybindings up as something similar to vi and I'm currently working on rewriting the music in the first level to play completely different tunes, such as they are.
Being able to back up and go forward without losing what you did - genius! Thanks again.
A.C.
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I am now using multitrack2 extensively and I've made some good progress on Otocky, making it through the end of the second level. The second level has a lot more interesting elements to it than the first, including a brass instrument, fast-forward, and a record feature. The boss battle was also somewhat more interesting as there were more enemies to contend with. Here's the current WIP weighing in at 3 minutes and 5k+ rerecords:
http://sonic.net/~ac/tas/Otocky-WIP-dwangoAC-03.fm2
With the power of multitrack2 I was able to move back and fourth through the stream of input and effectively compose while working around the requirements of hitting all targets and enemies. I was able to key in on the standard 4/4 beat and the first portion of level two plays a single note on the first beat of the measure. From there on out notes are only played on quarter note intervals until the fast-forward is collected. Unfortunately, the tempo change when transitioning to and from fast-forward mode is very abrupt and doesn't exactly match the original timing but it still turned out good. The record feature leads to some interesting harmony with the brass instrument and the boss battle turned out much more visually interesting than the first.
I'll rave about multitrack2 a bit more in the official thread but having it means that if there's a better sounding note progression changes can be easily made because every 1/8th note (every 12 frames) has been marked either with the A button or when there's movement on that frame with the Select button instead.
Anyway, I appreciate any feedback as always and thanks for the interest!
A.C.
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I've been chipping away at knocking out about one new level every week. There have been a few setbacks where I've lost some work due to crashes but I'm still going with Multitrack2 as my best friend. Without further ado here's the current WIP which completes Otocky through level 4 (If someone wants to encode this please feel free - I don't have the best tools for it):
http://sonic.net/~ac/tas/Otocky-WIP-dwangoAC-04.fm2
The musical variety really starts to pick up around the second half of level two and I did my very best to make the first portion of level 3 sound something vaguely like Super Mario Brothers descending into the basement but there's only so much that can be done before enemies and notes that need to be picked up make composing a lower priority. There are eleven levels in total and some of the upcoming levels should provide stretches where there will be a bit more possibility for musical creativity. If there's something you'd like me to try doing please let me know!
Thanks for any feedback you have,
A.C.
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It's been a long pull but I got through the end of level 7. There are still many musical limitations based on the instruments and the available notes based on the background chord but I've learned what sounds good and what doesn't. Ascending and descending through the available scales works very well especially when combined with character movement as demonstrated in (I think) level 5. I've posted the latest WIP to:
http://sonic.net/~ac/tas/Otocky-WIP-dwangoAC-07.zip
They're starting to get fairly large so I zipped it this time. I still have no really good way to do an encode but if someone wants to encode this please be my guest.
I would appreciate some feedback on this WIP, especially in the realm of how the music sounds and things you'd like to see more of in the last three levels. I hope to finish this up and submit it sometime in the next month.
Thanks again,
A.C.
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I'm really proud of how level 8 turned out. Check it out here:
http://sonic.net/~ac/tas/Otocky-WIP-dwangoAC-08.zip
There's a section in this level where it's possible to completely mirror the background music which sounds wicked awesome and looks pretty cool too (it was very difficult to to nail every enemy and note without missing a beat but I made it work). There are three levels left and at this rate I'm looking at a sub-20 minute run, perhaps even shorter than that. I'm currently at 15,000+ rerecords and about 13 minutes of length and I've invested around over 60 hours into this run so far so hopefully this is well received when it's submitted.
It'll be a week or two before I get to another level but I'll continue to post WIP updates after each level is complete. Until then,
A.C.
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Levels 9 and 10 are both complete and only the "Final Notes" level 11 remains:
http://sonic.net/~ac/tas/Otocky-WIP-dwangoAC-10.zip
This is likely my last WIP, not that anyone is really paying much attention at the moment. :) The final level will be fairly tricky and time consuming but I still hope to get it done in the next two weeks or so. The boss battle on level 10 involved a small amount of luck manipulation as I've found it may be possible to trigger a different note "size" (double notes instead of single notes) although I have had no success in reliably triggering any specific note to appear. I still haven't determined if the notes that are fired are based on what was picked up in the level just completed or if they are randomly generated. I did a bit of memory watching and comparison testing but I didn't find any smoking gun that indicates which note has appeared. If I can figure that out perhaps I can bust out the bot I used in creating High Speed to manipulate some better note "ammo" into existence. Maybe. But I digress.
As always, feedback would be appreciated but I'm not expecting any at this point. Until next time (which may come in the form of a submission),
A.C.
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I've completed Otocky in 17:52.02, 64427 frames, and 21,139 re-records. The completed game .fm2 file can be found (zipped) at:
http://sonic.net/~ac/tas/Otocky-WIP-dwangoAC-11.zip
EDIT: I've also added a rough encode at http://sonic.net/~ac/tas/Otocky-dwangoAC.mp4
I need to write up the submission text and unlike this long chain of self-replies I want to make the text nice and terse (in as much as it's possible for me to keep a handle on my verbosity). It may take me a bit to get that done properly and I'm still considering adding subtitles so I may not make the submission tonight but at least the project is done.
Thanks to those who have given me feedback both here in the forums and on IRC,
A.C.
******
