Wow, this will be great!
Will you be posting WIPs?
From time to time i will add levels in this playlist.
Nope. Human eyes not should to see miracles before they completely prepared.
Everybody in love with old TAS. So without doubts any improvements will be highly welcomed. Especially with tag. {I hope about Δ 3 mins would be enough to get this sweet tag.}
Most of major skips are closer to end of game. Improvements in the beginning would be relatively small, though minor improvements are exist everywhere.
3-Players have very big space regarding routes. I really like to crack this wonderful and fantastically complicated game! I continue finding more and more improvements.
No matter how crazy ideas i had - nearly all of them are workable. It is very enjoyable :)
Sometimes even in "simple" levels is possible to find new time saver, and it always pleasant even if it is only small tricks.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
Oh nice, I love this game and the old run so I'll be looking forward to this one. I'm sure controlling 3 characters is not easy, that's honestly one reason I've never touched games like this :P.
Meanwhile i finished fourth level and now can summarize the interim results for Star Ship area:
For first world in total 638 frames (10.63 seconds) was saved. Now our brave vikings are going to improve the next world - Prehistoria.
Edit: After some reflections i decided to not to post WIPs; it will be better psychological effect when you will see whole crazy epic thing at once.
It will happen approximately in April 2015. And if at that day your brain will not explode - you at least buddhist monk.
P.S. Happy new year to everyone!
---
Update from 08 January 2015: Second world Prehistoria is finished.
So far everything is going well, actually very very well. I already saved over 1 minute over published movie :)
Now is time to improve the next world - Egypt.
---
Update from 01 February 2015: Third world Egypt is finished.
Improvements still keep coming and the results are amazing. Improvements table.
In total i already 8327 frames ahead of published movie (2 minutes and 18.78 seconds).
Now time to improve The great factory world!
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
A few months ago when i only started first testings, i saw just vague outlines of real depth and complexity of this game.
Since then, i digging rabbit's hole every night about 2-3 hours and now my vision became clear to see full picture, and this picture is scary beautiful - each puzzle is like a as etude from chess.
My minimum task was to save at least 3 minutes over published TAS, this modest goal would be surpassed for sure. (Latest estimates says already something like ~ 5 minutes.)
Now i switched to solving the maximum task - i trying to make the most incredible Sega Genesis TAS ever created by mankind. Ragnarök is coming.
From Egypt world i really enjoyed optimise level 16 - SPKS (417 frames saved). Puzzle at the end of this level (4 buttons & 3 vikings problem) show true power of 3-Player TAS.
I a bit break a vow of silence and decide to uncover this level.
Link to video
P.S. I accidentally found old post by Aqfaq where he unreasonably used word optimal for his solution for first level.
Aqfaq wrote:
Improved level 1 by 30 frames compared to the current published run.
The thing is that the last guy is always the most important, because he determines when the level ends, so to save time, it is best to make the last guy come as fast as possible, even if it makes the other guys come slower. This should be optimal first level:
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/453339673/LostVikingsLevel1.gmv
Even though Ouzo's run is old, it is ahead of its time with the 3 players. It is a well done TAS, but can be improved a lot, because the game is absolutely awesome and a great challenge for any TASer.
Dear Aqfaq please try to avoid using word optimal in future. It's bad form. Even demigod Masterjun never used this word.
Actually even the first, the shortest and the easiest level is a way not so obvious to be able find really optimal solution.
Here how Level 1 should look when it optimised to absurdly high level (36 frames faster than "optimal" solution by Aqfaq.)
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1074269932/Lost_Vikings_Level1.gmv
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Автор ограничил доступ к видео.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Спасибо, исправил. Теперь должно работать.
Пост можешь удалить (ну или написать что нибудь информативное на буржуйском).
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!
Archanfel wrote:
It's bad form.
Thank you for the tip, товарищ! ^__^
"Optimal" is a word I learned in 1999 while lurking on a Doom speedrunning forum. I have been using the word ever since.
It is also a part of TASVideos' standard glossary together with "perfect" and "masterjun" as can be verified by searching:
http://tasvideos.org/Search.html?key=optimal&subs=1 (462 results)
http://tasvideos.org/Search.html?key=perfect&subs=1 (662 results)
http://tasvideos.org/Search.html?key=masterjun&subs=1 (5884564639 results)
By the way, awesome to see progress on Lost Vikings! With speed like that those guys must be sweating buckets under the beards, especially the fatty one who looks like my mother!
---------
Edit:
Archanfel wrote:
Thanks, i will use this as avatar for submission :) but until that moment i need yet 2-3 months of hard work digging.
Offtopic. When (if) you will do something epic may use [url=http://s7.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2015/02/5373b665f03f368944fb32abec3f0280.jpg
]this advanced avatar.[/url]
---
As gratefulness for hilarious pic i uncover one more level before disappearing.
Link to video
Level 15 - C1R0 (where 398 frames saved) with abusing two cool tricks:
1)Broken Bridge Glitch to completely skip Olaf's part.
2)Cancel Eric's falling animation by switching lever.
+)Besides to accelerate destroying wall with red key by two strikes is little bit (18 frames) faster then simple waiting.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
Patashu pointed me to this thread. Looks like you already know a lot about the tricks in this game, but if you need any information, feel free to ask, I've run this game 1p2c in RTA for over a year.
Patashu pointed me to this thread. Looks like you already know a lot about the tricks in this game, but if you need any information, feel free to ask, I've run this game 1p2c in RTA for over a year.
Thanks, i saw some of your SNES speed runs, really impressive results for non-assisted speedruns. But i know a lot of own tricks and knowledges beyond of it, so i not think you can be helpful.
---
Regarding routing i have only one open question. But to test it need someone with TASing knowledges (and with unhuman patience).
In level 33 - 8BLL may be Olaf can carry Baleog on the shield thru this spikes and survive?? (Red line on pic)
Very low celling strongly against it, i can't succeed (at least so far). However i not yet sure that it is impossible. Inside the spikes there are some "safety areas", so some chances still exist.
Let me know if someone can succeed. {In case if it is possible Eric will be able to get Baleog's key, after getting his own key}.
Note: only the lowest safety area (on picture) is truly safety, others are dead end since Olaf can't escape from them alive.
---
Also there is a weak shadow of hope to skip Baleog part with girder in Level 27 H0PP - aka "Broken Hopes" if Eric able to press this button.
But unfortunately he can't press it. So this question is closed. Let me know if i wrong and it is somehow possible.
In routes for all other levels i absolutely sure.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Please unembed the pyramid picture above, too wide for my browser.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I am also very interested if anything you know about or discover while making this TAS is useful for human play - but I'll wait until you are finished making the TAS, and look at it and ask you questions. :)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Man this looks like Star contents to me! As for that spike test, might be a deserving task for
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Wow, thank you, but I already submitted Hugo 2½. TAS of the year and a half.
I believe master feos would be much better at solving the spike problem with his Lua scripting ingenuity. Anoobis is still learning to print "Hello, world!" in Lua.
?
____"_ | |
/" _))) |\_/|______,
/===| _\ /::| Q ____)
("___| > ,_ /:::| / ,_ HELL WORLD!!!!!!!!!
o _= / _/// /::::|_ / / _///
_______| |____/ | _|:::::| |:___/ |
| __) \_/ /____| | '----'\_/ /___|
_| / \ ) ) _| / \ : /
_\\\__/ \ / _\\\__/ \ /
/ ( /===(
/ \ \ / \
/ \ \ / \WTF? WHERE MY STAFF? STAFFFFFFFFF!!!!!!
| \ \ | \ IS TIS EVEN LUA???? NO, FUUUU! TIH NOT LUA AT ALLLL!!!! FORUM CODE ONLY!!!! ? ANYONE HELP GOD? GOOOOOOOOOOOOD!!! HELP GOOOOOOOOOOOD!!!!
| \ \ | \
| \ \ |,_________\
| \ \ / ) / )
|,_______\___\ WHY MY SEX IMAGE DISTORT??? / / ( |
| / \ | | / \ |
|/ \| |/ \|
S__ S__ ANOOBIS AAAANGRYYYY!!!!!!
ANOOBIS AGREE WITH JIMSFRIEND.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
How could a TAS optimization task be done by writing lua scripts? I can write anything you want, or disasm this to death, but I thought it wouldn't help.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
How could a TAS optimization task be done by writing lua scripts? I can write anything you want, or disasm this to death, but I thought it wouldn't help.
Maybe brute forcing?
The conditions are easy enough - you want to go overall left until a certain position, then overall right until a certain position, and if either guy dies you load an earlier state and try something different.
Meanwhile in factory.
Link to video
Short Level 22 - PLNG (where 237 frames saved) with two minor improvements:
-At the second magnet give control to Baleog, so Eric able be at tramplin earlier (48 frames saved).
-Completely skip third magnet. Eric jump over spikes instead of Olaf. (~3 seconds saved).
---
Lost Vikings behind the scene Part 1/2 - "Spikes is a lie". Olaf: Hey Eric, in factory world there are only 5 puzzles with spikes, where i need fly. I very sad that you did my job for one of them.
Eric: Actually i can do 4/5 of them instead of Olaf.
Baleog: Eric, probably you forgot but in level 24 - JNKR there is significant difference comparing to SNES. In 1992 many players reported about map weakness in this level which allowed me use my bow to press button thru the wall, so in 1993 for Sega Genesis version additional wall was added to fix this stupid mistake. I afraid Olaf's flying is absolutely necessary.
Eric: Yeah, i heard this story and nevertheless i will skip getting red key. Sorry Olaf.
Olaf: Oh no, seems i never earn a honor to eat at one table with Odin in great Valhalla's hall... I urgently need to do something glorious to proof that i am still very useful team member.
To be continued...
Part 2/2 - "Revenge of Olaf" will include solution for next level 23 - BTRY with numerous improvements (900+ frames), at least 540 of them will be saved by using Olaf the Stout.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
And now part 2/2 "Revenge of Olaf", Level 23 - BTRY where 1049 frames (17.48 seconds) was saved:
Link to video
Bottom puzzles:
-Olaf get first item instead of Eric, besides it new Olaf's position allow to can turn on lift earlier. All glory to Olaf! (~540)
-More precise Eric path optimisation. Maintain full speed during offscreen avoiding shots of second robot, also climbing up and down ladders are not so simple as someone can think. (~42)
Upper puzzles:
-Changed sequence of getting items.
-At the left puzzle {cube} skip spike problem without using Olaf, Eric can fall thru force field offscreen. (~261)
-At right puzzle {chemical} Eric passed thru fire offscreen. (~99)
-Manipulate electric saw robot to get item inside of it, from left side. {~30}
-Less items transmissions. (~17)
-Used Olaf's parachute system. So Eric, the fastest character can put items on the places instead of Baleog. {~60}. (Olaf requested emphasize that he put his trophy by his own hands.)
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
Oh dear, my head would explode trying to optimize three characters at once.
I not play in traditional sense, i just type input in tas editor for each frame. It requires a holy patience, but this way i can achieve absolute team work execution of all my ideas.
Btw if you think BTRY is something especially impressive - you are wrong, it was just good day for Olaf.
In my ragnarök TAS there are 8 levels (at least 8, may be 9) will be improved more significant and several of them will be more impressive.
It is too early to say surely (too many things are hard for exact calculation) however in the most optimistic scenario - our brave vikings will be able to return home less than half an hour. Olaf not wants to miss breakfast.
---
feos wrote:
Woah! You then use read-only savestates to get to the edited frame quickly in Gens I guess?
Exactly.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Archanfel wrote:
Aqfaq wrote:
Oh dear, my head would explode trying to optimize three characters at once.
I not play in traditional sense, i just type input in tas editor for each frame. It requires a holy patience, but this way i can achieve absolute team work execution of all my ideas.
Woah! You then use read-only savestates to get to the edited frame quickly in Gens I guess?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Woah! You then use read-only savestates to get to the edited frame quickly in Gens I guess?
If you have the movie open in read-only mode in Gens, you can alt-tab to TASEditor to edit the movie, edit, save, alt-tab back to Gens and load a savestate before the edited frame. Gens will reload the movie automagically, and play it with the changes you made. It even works with Gens on Wine and TASEditor in a VM.
tag. {I hope about Δ 3 mins would be enough to get this sweet tag.}
Most of major skips are closer to end of game. Improvements in the beginning would be relatively small, though minor improvements are exist everywhere.
3-Players have very big space regarding routes. I really like to crack this wonderful and fantastically complicated game! I continue finding more and more improvements.
No matter how crazy ideas i had - nearly all of them are workable. It is very enjoyable :)
Sometimes even in "simple" levels is possible to find new time saver, and it always pleasant even if it is only small tricks.
Edit: After some reflections i decided to not to post WIPs; it will be better psychological effect when you will see whole crazy epic thing at once.
It will happen approximately in April 2015. And if at that day your brain will not explode - you at least buddhist monk.
P.S. Happy new year to everyone!
---
Update from 08 January 2015: Second world Prehistoria is finished.
So far everything is going well, actually very very well. I already saved over 1 minute over published movie :)
Now is time to improve the next world - Egypt.
---
Update from 01 February 2015: Third world Egypt is finished.
Improvements still keep coming and the results are amazing. Improvements table.
In total i already 8327 frames ahead of published movie (2 minutes and 18.78 seconds).
Now time to improve The great factory world!
---
Also there is a weak shadow of hope to skip Baleog part with girder in Level 27 H0PP - aka "Broken Hopes" if Eric able to press this button.
But unfortunately he can't press it. So this question is closed. Let me know if i wrong and it is somehow possible.
In routes for all other levels i absolutely sure.
