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The Legend of Zelda "Swordless" (1st Quest)

  • aims for fastest time
  • takes damage to save time
  • abuses programming errors
  • manipulates luck
  • uses a game restart sequence
  • no deaths
  • no predefined saves
  • genre: adventure
  • uses emulator fceu 0.98.28
This run is my first submission to TASvideos and I believe the first of its kind.
This is one of my favorite all-time NES games. If you are unfamiliar with this game you can refer to Baxter and Morrison's 2nd quest movie submission notes for a brief recap of the plot here: #2091: Baxter & Morrison's NES The Legend of Zelda "2nd quest" in 24:59.83
You can also find a highly in-depth description of enemy drops, enemy movement, gameplay techniques, link's movement, and a description of the screen scroll glitch in those same submission notes.
This is technically not a "swordless" run for the obvious reason that you have to collect one of the three swords in order to hit Ganon and complete the game. There has been lots of discussion in the forums as to what the best way to end a run of this type would be. To my knowledge the point of this site is for people to show off game "completion" in the least amount of frames. Without collecting a sword, game completion is not possible. So instead of a freezing glitch, dying on Ganon, or stopping the movie when you enter Ganon's room, I chose to collect the sword and kill Ganon. Note that I only get the sword after acquiring all 8 peices of the triforce, and do not use it until the fight with Ganon.

A Few Quirks:

There are a few things I'd like to point out about my route, the screen scroll glitch, and enemy manipulations/drops.

Route:

First off, I was asked in the forums after I posted my WIP about why I use the gambling game more than the published 1st quest any %. In that run they only use the gambling game twice and get the rest of their rupees from enemy drops and a 100 rupee secret to everyone room on the way to level 8.
When I started attempting this run I noticed that if you get the candle on the way to level 4, when you pick up the ladder there and reset, the game for some unknown reason sets your item to the candle on restart. This of course is suboptimal since you don't need the candle until the 100 rupee secret room (if you plan on getting this) or level 8, and it forces you to access the menu to switch back to the bombs. After some testing I found that it is slightly faster to get the candle later (skipping the 100 rupees) since there's a candle room on the way to level 8. So basically you're trading 2 gamble screens for 1 menu screen and the 100 rupee secret, also allowing you to screen scroll glitch past the first candle room and the rupee secret. Furthermore, getting the candle near level 8 allows you to move up/right and down/left respectively, allowing a few frames to be saved by zig-zagging.
You may also wonder why I dont ever use the whistle to warp to level 3 to go to levels 4 and 7, and to level 1 when going to level 9. If going to level 7 before completing level 4 it is in fact faster to use the whistle, but with the screen scroll glitch it makes it optimal to do level 4 first and then over to level 7 by use of the glitch. Additionally I have to reset to get the wooden sword anyway, so I dont have to worry about walking 1 screen away from level 7 to use the whistle.
As for not using the whistle to go to level 1 after I pick up the wooden sword. In the any% they whistle from level 6 to 1, but I obviously have a different route and using the whistle after getting the wooden sword is much slower than just screen scroll glitch walking up past level 1.

Screen Scroll Glitch:

There are some places in the overworld where I do the glitch and I move in a seemingly suboptimal way. This only happens when moving north/south through the black portion at the top of the screen. For some reason if there's bushes or rocks at the top of the screen they are offset in some places by about a block worth of movement. For example, while on the way to get the 30 rupees in the beginning of the run, when screen scrolling at the first forest screen after the beach area, it looks like you may be able to hug the bushes on the right and perform the glitch there. This is not so because the bushes are offset slightly. This is the reason you see me enter the bottom of the screen in the middle, come out of the top half a block to the left, and have to go back to the right before i reenter from the top and move on. This happens a few times during the run and may look a bit strange.

Enemy Drops:

Some dungeon rooms again may seem suboptimal, and I'm sure a few frames could probably be saved here and there (although this would ultimately change the entire run from there on out which may or may not be desireable). You may see me kill some enemies first when it looked like i could have hit/killed more with the same bomb. Most of the time this is because i need to get a certain drop from a certain enemy and if I were to kill any other enemies first it would change the value of $052A thus changing the type of drop. An example of this would be in level 7 when entering the locked door room with 3 bats and 3 blue boomerang baddies, I drop 2 consecutive bombs to kill 2 of the 3 blue boomerangers where i could have killed some bats as well or even all 6 enemies with the 2 bombs. This is misleading because killing any of the bats before i killed the boomerangers would not have allowed me to get a bomb drop there. I tried to prevent this from happening as much as possible but unfortunately it does a few times.

Enemy Manipulations:

Since this is a swordless run it would seem unfair to compare dungeon room completion times to the any% runs. There is no sword present which makes it considerably harder to complete rooms in as timely a fashion (especially blue darknut rooms), because without the sword you can not do things like lay a bomb/swing your sword at the same time (possibly setting up enemies in a group) and swing your sword when the bomb explodes hitting them with both and doing extra damage (cutting down on enemy cooldown and bomb usage).

The Route:

As you can imagine the route plan for a swordless run is drastically different from an any% since you can only hit the dragon bosses of level 4 and 8 with the wand, and to get that you must get the ladder from level 4. With that in mind I believe that the route is pretty much fully optomized.
  • get 30 rupees from the friendly enemy
  • reset
  • get bombs
  • reset
  • use left over rupees for gambling
  • level 3 triforce
  • raft
  • save and continue
  • ladder
  • save and continue
  • bow
  • level 1 triforce
  • wand
  • level 6 triforce
  • reset
  • candle on the way to level 8
  • level 8 triforce
  • level 2 triforce
  • meat
  • whistle
  • level 5 triforce
  • reset
  • level 4 triforce
  • level 7 triforce
  • reset
  • wooden sword
  • reset
  • silver arrows
  • Ganon/Zelda

Credits:

I would like to thank Phil, Baxter, and Morrison for their 1st and 2nd quest any% runs and submission texts. Without these this run would never have been possible. And also Baxter again for his feedback and encouragement in pm's and the forums early on. A special thanks goes out to LordTom for responding to my posts recently. It seemed like people had lost interest in this run considering noone really responded to my posted WIP and additional comments. Your responses and encouragement were very timely, without which i may have put off finishing this run for awhile or possibly indefinately. I hope everyone enjoys the run whether published or not. Its been a long time coming!
adelikat: Claimined for judging. I think this submission has implications for the site as a whole so I will handle it. Expect a verdict in the upcoming days.
adelikat: Accepting for publication. Verdict
Aktan: Processing as "Swordless Challenge"
FractalFusion: Replaced movie to change rerecord count to 12000, which is closer to the number of actual rerecords done.
adelikat: Replace submission file with .fm2 file

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Posted: 7/17/2010 10:53 PM
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TASVideoAgent
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This topic is for the purpose of discussing #2750: jprofit22's NES The Legend of Zelda "1st Quest "Swordless"" in 26:40.33
Posted: 7/18/2010 3:00 AM
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C0DE_RED
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When you said "swordless", I thought you were going to beat the whole game where you completely ignored obtaining the sword. I foolishly believed that. I stopped watching the run after you beated all 8 castles, heading into Ganon's lair. [N]
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Posted: 7/18/2010 3:47 AM
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Cardboard
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C0DE RED wrote:
When you said "swordless", I thought you were going to beat the whole game where you completely ignored obtaining the sword. I foolishly believed that. I stopped watching the run after you beated all 8 castles, heading into Ganon's lair. [N]
Submission Text wrote:
This is technically not a "swordless" run for the obvious reason that you have to collect one of the three swords in order to hit Ganon and complete the game.
Knowledge is power.
Warp wrote:
omg lol this is so fake!!!1 the nes cant produce music like this!
Posted: 7/18/2010 4:02 AM
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Lord_Tom
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So glad to see an entry on the workbench for this run, 6 years (!) after the topic was first raised in the forums. Looks great; a big improvement over your last WIP. I especially like how you enter level 6 with half a heart and keep that throughout the entire level - definitely emphasizes the tool-assisted-ness. Everyone will have their opinion over the best way to handle the swordless/Ganon fight conflict, but given the extensive discussion in the forum, I think it's silly to argue that this solution is invalid. Voted Yes, and congratulations to jprofit22 on an ambitious first submission! EDIT: Cardboard: LOL, I was thinking of making some sarcastic note to that effect, but yours was much wittier! :)
Posted: 7/18/2010 4:58 AM
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mklip2001
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Of course, the issue with this kind of run is "Does this deserve to be a separate published category?" The swordless challenge is certainly famous, but the true test of whether it should get published is if the challenge leads to impressive play that is distinct from the runs we already have. In this regard, I'd say this run totally qualifies, and indeed it kicks a whole lot of ass. The route change is interesting. The bomb manipulation is incredible. Heck, I even approve of you wasting a little time to shoot an old man in Level 9. Hearty Yes vote. Congratulations on your first submission! This run also makes me want to see an any% 1st-quest run featuring the screen scroll glitch :-)
Used to be a frequent submissions commenter. My new computer has had some issues running emulators, so I've been here more sporadically. Still haven't gotten around to actually TASing yet... I was going to improve Kid Dracula for GB. It seems I was beaten to it, though, with a recent awesome run by Hetfield90 and StarvinStruthers. (http://tasvideos.org/2928M.html.) Thanks to goofydylan8 for running Gargoyle's Quest 2 because I mentioned the game! (http://tasvideos.org/2001M.html) Thanks to feos and MESHUGGAH for taking up runs of Duck Tales 2 because of my old signature! Thanks also to Samsara for finishing a Treasure Master run. From the submission comments:
Shoutouts and thanks to mklip2001 for arguably being the nicest and most supportive person on the forums.
Posted: 7/18/2010 5:42 AM
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adelikat
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I had somewhat low expectations before watching. I figured once you got the wand early, the run would just be like the any% just using a wand instead of sword. That was not the case. Bombs proved to be far more useful (and entertaining). I love that you completed it with only 3 hearts, and at the last battle you used your last rupee for the silver arrow shot and only had a half a heart to complete the game. The route planning looked very thorough as well as the optimization. On tech quality it seems to be on par with the published movies. For being high quality and entertaining me beyond what I had expected, I vote yes. As far as publication goes, I think this is the most relevant comparison. How do the arguments present against that run apply/not apply here? Discuss.
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Posted: 7/18/2010 7:22 AM
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Derakon
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
The CCC challenge is mostly known only to the modern SM64 fanbase, while the swordless Zelda play is something that, IIRC, many people knew about even back when Zelda was still commonly played on the original console, much like the "four white mages" Final Fantasy challenge. Simply being better-known means that it's more likely to get a positive reception and be more interesting to the general public. Also, at first glance one would think that the CCC run would largely consist of getting stars that don't require coins, caps, or cannons. Obviously there are also some stars which nominally require one of the three but can be obtained without through some tricky play (c.f. backwards longjump onto the floating island in Bob-Omb Battlefield that you're supposed to cannon to); that would be where most of the interest of the run would lie. In contrast, the sword is the fundamental offensive tool in Zelda, and going without it is much more obviously limiting.
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Posted: 7/18/2010 7:23 AM
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jprofit22
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Joined: 1/19/2009
Posts: 100
Thanks for all the great feedback! I'm glad to see people still showing interest in this run after so many years.
mklip2001 wrote:
Heck, I even approve of you wasting a little time to shoot an old man in Level 9.
Actually if you look a bit closer you'll notice that after I hit the old man in level 9 I get an enemy boost off of one of the fireballs toward the wall. This saved a couple frames over walking. As for the link to the Super Mario 64 TAS adelikat posted. Of course my opinion on this matter is probably a bit biased since I'd like to see my run approved, but I would argue that these runs cannot be compared for the simple fact that I have to incorporate an entirely different route plan from the published 1st quest movie, changing the enemy layouts, enemy drops, and item pick-ups. Whereas the Super Mario 64 submission I am assuming uses almost a mirror of the 120 stars route with minor changes to the re-entering of levels due to getting less stars and stars in a different order in each level. To me this is not a large enough distinction from the 120 star run to warrant a new category, whereas the only similar thing between my run and the published any% I would say are a few dungeon rooms.
Posted: 7/18/2010 7:33 AM
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Noxxa
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jprofit22 wrote:
Actually if you look a bit closer you'll notice that after I hit the old man in level 9 I get an enemy boost off of one of the fireballs toward the wall. This saved a couple frames over walking. As for the link to the Super Mario 64 TAS adelikat posted. Of course my opinion on this matter is probably a bit biased since I'd like to see my run approved, but I would argue that these runs cannot be compared for the simple fact that I have to incorporate an entirely different route plan from the published 1st quest movie, changing the enemy layouts, enemy drops, and item pick-ups. Whereas the Super Mario 64 submission I am assuming uses almost a mirror of the 120 stars route with minor changes to the re-entering of levels due to getting less stars and stars in a different order in each level. To me this is not a large enough distinction from the 120 star run to warrant a new category, whereas the only similar thing between my run and the published any% I would say are a few dungeon rooms.
Actually, CCC is not just "to the re-entering of levels due to getting less stars and stars in a different order in each level". It's also, you know, getting stars without getting coins or using caps and cannons. That's actually pretty similar to this run not using a sword. (I do assume not using a sword here has a greater impact than not using CCCs in SM64, though). I think an even more comparable run to this is Super Mario World (Small only), which did end up getting published.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Posted: 7/18/2010 7:41 AM
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jprofit22
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Mothrayas wrote:
Actually, CCC is not just "to the re-entering of levels due to getting less stars and stars in a different order in each level". It's also, you know, getting stars without getting coins or using caps and cannons. That's actually pretty similar to this run not using a sword. (I do assume not using a sword here has a greater impact than not using CCCs in SM64, though). I think an even more comparable run to this is Super Mario World (Small only), which did end up getting published.
I agree that there are arguably some similarities because of the restrictions of not using certain items, and in no way am I trying to take anything away from a CCC run, but as I said in my comment, the route is the major difference for me here. And thanks for comparing this run to the "small only" SMW run! This is one of my favorite runs on the site and it's an honor to be put in the same sentence with it.
Posted: 7/18/2010 8:15 AM
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jprofit22
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Joined: 1/19/2009
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C0DE RED wrote:
I stopped watching the run after you beated all 8 castles, heading into Ganon's lair. [N]
This is unfortunate. Level 9 is an absolute beast, and one of my favorite levels to TAS...
Posted: 7/18/2010 8:15 AM
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snorlax
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This run was very entertaining, and the gameplay was probably on par with the currently published first quest run. I saw a couple things that made me wonder if they could be done differently, but I'll assume they weren't for manipulation purposes. I think the route and strategy changes are significant enough to allow this to be published alongside the two existing runs. Yes vote. Another good comparison for this run might be minimalist Contra.
Posted: 7/18/2010 8:34 AM
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Andypro
Joined: 5/24/2004
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I voted yes. I thoroughly enjoyed this run. Thank you very much for taking all the time and work to make it!
Posted: 7/18/2010 8:48 AM
(Edited: 7/18/2010 10:01 AM)
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upthorn
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Regarding the comparison to the SM64 CCC run, I would argue that, in Super Mario 64, while coins, caps, and cannons are helpful, they never seem absolutely necessary for game completion. It's sort of like a Sonic the Hedgehog run that never collects rings or powerups in that, while it is technically a challenge to avoid the rings and never take any damage, it's a lot less interesting to watch than a standard run. By contrast, the sword in Zelda seems like an absolute necessity, and even though you can choose to avoid getting it, it is surprising to learn that it is possible to accomplish any meaningful progress in such a case, even given the benefit of tool assistance. It'd be sort of like a Brain Age math run that never writes any numerals in terms of surprise and entertainment value. Now I haven't actually watched this movie yet, so this post is all theory at this point. But I personally find even the notion that the first 8 dungeons can be completed without a sword to be incredibly entertaining. Not so for the idea that a sonic or mario game can be completed without coins/rings or powerups. Edit: Having now watched the run, I stand by my line of argumentation. Item use was really creative and unexpected.
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Posted: 7/18/2010 8:59 AM
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Lord_Tom
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I like the comparison to "pacifist" Contra - a challenge, which, while it doesn't fall into the any/low/100% pigeon-holes, is a very natural one given the mechanics of the game and leads to very interesting changes in strategy and tactics. I'm not familiar with the CCC issue in M64, though it appears that challenge was felt to fall short in terms of the novelty of its gameplay. I don't imagine it helped that the submission text mentioned that it was improvable by over a minute, though the judge's comment doesn't mention it. I still think the guideline of limiting branches to a game is a good guideline to avoid nonsense like "gets blue ring and magic boomerang and kills every bat with aforementioned boomerang", but I think there's a pretty compelling case that adding this category will enhance the site.
Posted: 7/18/2010 10:14 AM
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Onyx3173
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I thought this was a good run, after watching the other Zelda runs I was expecting more of the same but it was very different. I liked how you use bombs rather than the wand to fight. My only question is about a couple of rooms. Some of them you obviously kill all the enemies to hit a switch but are all the rooms you clear that way? Anyway, I'm certain that was just me missing something so I vote yes.
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Posted: 7/18/2010 10:37 AM
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jprofit22
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Onyx3173 wrote:
My only question is about a couple of rooms. Some of them you obviously kill all the enemies to hit a switch but are all the rooms you clear that way?
For the most part yes. If I am clearing a room of enemies it is only because of 3 things. Either its because of a pushable block, a locked door, or picking up a key/bomb/5 rupee reward for clearing the room. Although there are not any bomb pickups this way. Edit: When I say locked door I am referring to the barred doors that open only when the room is clear of enemies, not a keyed door.
Posted: 7/18/2010 10:57 AM
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Cardboard
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I didn't really like the run, like I do with most LoZ-runs it seems, but it was very well executed, and I enjoyed the concept, so yeah, I'm all for this. Yes-vote.
Warp wrote:
omg lol this is so fake!!!1 the nes cant produce music like this!
Posted: 7/18/2010 11:11 AM
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jprofit22
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Cardboard wrote:
I didn't really like the run, like I do with most LoZ-runs it seems, but it was very well executed, and I enjoyed the concept, so yeah, I'm all for this. Yes-vote.
Out of curiosity I was wondering if you'd be willing to elaborate on why you didn't like the run.
Posted: 7/18/2010 11:44 AM
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Cardboard
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jprofit22 wrote:
Cardboard wrote:
I didn't really like the run, like I do with most LoZ-runs it seems, but it was very well executed, and I enjoyed the concept, so yeah, I'm all for this. Yes-vote.
Out of curiosity I was wondering if you'd be willing to elaborate on why you didn't like the run.
Overall the game is kinda slow-paced, the screen transitions takes way too long time (And a lot of the run is just screen transitions, glitched or not) and for the love of all holy rocks in the universe, that almost-dead sound could make Elvis spring to life. It's not the run I dislike. It's the game as TASing material.
Warp wrote:
omg lol this is so fake!!!1 the nes cant produce music like this!
Posted: 7/18/2010 12:05 PM
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jprofit22
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Cardboard wrote:
Overall the game is kinda slow-paced, the screen transitions takes way too long time (And a lot of the run is just screen transitions, glitched or not) and for the love of all holy rocks in the universe, that almost-dead sound could make Elvis spring to life. It's not the run I dislike. It's the game as TASing material.
Fair enough. And yeah, lol, the low energy sound is quite annoying. Although if you listen to the dungeon music while on low life it makes a pretty cool remix when switching from door transition to rooms since the low life beep is removed during the transitions and you can hear the whole track. Anyway, thanks for the vote! :)
Posted: 7/18/2010 1:18 PM
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Gamerskillsfull
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why in the world did you go in and out on Castle 1 before going back inside to get the triforce? Other than that, VERY impressive, Yes for me!
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Posted: 7/18/2010 1:19 PM
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adelikat
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That's a fairly well known glitch. It only works for level 1. If you leave and re-enter the locked door on the top of the first room will become unlocked.
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Posted: 7/19/2010 6:01 PM
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spweasel
Joined: 1/10/2010
Posts: 59
I try to watch runs before reading the commentary (to avoid spoilers), so I too was sorely disappointed when the wooden sword was picked up. I was hoping that perhaps some glitch to skip/kill Ganon had been found, but sadly that was not the case. I was looking forward to giving this one a yes going in, but I have to give it a no for two reasons: 1) Does not adhere to the the run's stated goal. The goal itself makes the game unwinnable, which makes it a poor choice of goals, in my opinion. This by itself would be enough to drop it to a "meh" in my book. If this were titled "no non-Ganon sword use" it would be accurate, but that just makes the goal sound pretty arbitrary. 2) Doesn't feel like it offers that much entertainment that can't be found in the other runs. The new route isn't bad, but mostly just feels like doing the same things from the other run only in a different order. Manipulating enemies so you can bomb them is interesting as well, but after the first couple times it loses its novelty and starts to look the same. This is enough to just barely drop it into "no" status for me. It might partly be that, as Cardboard said, this game is the worst in the series for TASing. Even changing the route or using different enemy strategies doesn't feel like it makes a big difference in the end. By no means is this a bad run, but it seems like an unnecessary split. On another note, would it be faster to pick up a couple of those post-boss heart tanks you just barely miss and grab the Silver Sword after Level 5? It doesn't seem like it is very far off the path and it would save time against Ganon (not to mention allow for more damage boosts). If you have to collect the sword to beat the game, it really shouldn't matter which sword you get or when you get it, in my opinion.
Posted: 7/19/2010 6:28 PM
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Pointless_Boy
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