Posted: 8/7/2010 6:28 PM
Post subject: Epic Pinball
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dwangoAC
Moderator, Senior Ambassador, Experienced player (907)
Joined: 9/14/2008
Posts: 1014
Exotic platforms TASer of 2015 Exotic platforms TASer of 2013
Greetings, With much help from Ilari I've created a very, very short WIP of the Epic Pinball Android table using the default settings. This WIP is just long enough to show what the gameplay will generally be like, although the first goal is a bit heavy on only the left and right ramps. The encode can be found at: http://sonic.net/~ac/tas/dwangoAC-WIP-Epic-Pinball.mkv And for those who are interested the raw file (with an incorrect re-record count and no file extension at the moment) is at: http://sonic.net/~ac/tas/dwangoAC-WIP-Epic-Pinball The stated goal in the game documentation is to bring the android to life by completing various goals printed on screen. I'm hoping these goals will be entertaining and can be made even more entertaining through the use of creative shots and luck manipulation - lots of luck manipulation. As always, feedback is welcome. Thanks for looking at this WIP! A.C. ******
I was laid off in May 2023 and became too ill to work this year and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD is stalled. I'm dwangoAC, TASVideos Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; when healthy, I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
Posted: 8/7/2010 6:52 PM
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moozooh
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away
So far there is some major repetition. Can you accelerate/decelerate the ball by repeatedly bumping the table?
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 8/8/2010 12:12 AM
Post subject: Luck Manipulation, or how to abuse physics and win friends
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dwangoAC
Moderator, Senior Ambassador, Experienced player (907)
Joined: 9/14/2008
Posts: 1014
Exotic platforms TASer of 2015 Exotic platforms TASer of 2013
moozooh wrote:
So far there is some major repetition. Can you accelerate/decelerate the ball by repeatedly bumping the table?
I agree on the repetition part - one aspect of this is that some of the opening shots are required to start the first mode in the game but at the same time there's a lot more that can be done to break that up. If my stated goal is to bring the android to life AND get all of the various scoring elements to their maximum (i.e. maximum IQ, maximum "power" which is scored by the middle slot, etc.) it opens up a lot more potential variety. In other words, what you see here is purely driven toward stepping through the modes to bring the android to life as quickly as possible but I'm discovering that perhaps it's worth it to expand that goal a notch to allow more creativity and entertainment. Regarding nudging the table it has surprisingly little effect unless the ball is sitting on or near another object. I know from playing my own pins in the real world that if you nudge the pinball machine while the ball is touching an object the object will exert force on the ball but if the ball isn't touching an object the playfield will move underneath the ball. With that said only the former force appears to be applied in Epic Pinball so nudging is only really useful when the ball is near some other object. A far more interesting element to this game is how much the ball's velocity (literally - speed and direction) are affected by the RNG. In the opening plunger shot performing a keyhit causes the ball to behave wildly differently when it reaches the rollover lanes above the bumpers (I think the WIP I posted above presses the right control key at a specific frame to obtain a more favorable bounce). I have some work ahead of me to sort through dump files looking for memory locations - ideally, it would be very useful to know what values change when the ball is more likely to go left vs. right. Making some kind of script to help find a more "optimal" solution will be very, very tricky, however - what's "optimal" is very hard to pin down at any given moment but as a very obvious generality you're either trying to go more to the left, neither left nor right, or more to the right (and always at the fastest speed possible). That entire sentence sounded... well, ridiculous if I'm being honest with myself but it highlights that with a game like pinball knowing what you want to have happen next and being able to articulate it are two very different things. :) I'm going to work on breaking up the opening sequence a bit more and on finding the RNG so I'll post another WIP once I've got something else interesting to show. For the record, there are a number of "cheats" that can be enabled including controlling the ball with the arrow keys by pressing escape, b, and then j; I'm choosing to use the default angle settings and no cheat codes to make the gameplay as authentic as possible. Thanks for the feedback, A.C. ******
I was laid off in May 2023 and became too ill to work this year and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD is stalled. I'm dwangoAC, TASVideos Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; when healthy, I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
Posted: 8/8/2010 12:28 AM
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moozooh
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away
Can't you then nudge the table as you are using the flippers to impart additional momentum to the ball?
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 8/8/2010 5:28 AM
Post subject: Inverted logic, or why pushing things doesn't always work
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dwangoAC
Moderator, Senior Ambassador, Experienced player (907)
Joined: 9/14/2008
Posts: 1014
Exotic platforms TASer of 2015 Exotic platforms TASer of 2013
moozooh wrote:
Can't you then nudge the table as you are using the flippers to impart additional momentum to the ball?
You would think that would be the case but so far all I've found is that it slows things down - if you nudge before you hit the flipper the act of the flipper hitting the ball appears to impart less momentum and if you nudge right after you hit the flipper it appears to have very little effect at all. The other consideration is that every time the table is tilted the entire view moves rapidly which might make for a jarring viewing experience. With that said I need to do some more testing to see if there's a way to get more momentum out of the ball. Setting the table to High Angle instead of Normal Angle results in an increase in the acceleration of the ball toward the bottom of the playfield but that typically translates to an inversely higher resistance when shooting the ball toward the top of the playfield and the gravity just "feels wrong" somehow. Anyway, I'm off to see if I can abuse the RNG to make the ball go where I want it as that currently seems like a better tool than nudging for the time being. I'll be sure to post here if I find any specific tricks that don't involve cheat codes, however. :) A.C. ******
I was laid off in May 2023 and became too ill to work this year and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD is stalled. I'm dwangoAC, TASVideos Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; when healthy, I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
Posted: 8/14/2010 8:48 AM
Post subject: New WIP - pinball faster than it should be experienced
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dwangoAC
Moderator, Senior Ambassador, Experienced player (907)
Joined: 9/14/2008
Posts: 1014
Exotic platforms TASer of 2015 Exotic platforms TASer of 2013
The latest WIP is up at: http://sonic.net/~ac/tas/dwangoAC-WIP-Epic-Pinball-02.mkv It's re-worked and it's definitely faster although I'm not positive if it's more entertaining just yet. :) The fun part will happen when multiball starts. Feedback is welcome, as always. Thanks, A.C. ******
I was laid off in May 2023 and became too ill to work this year and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD is stalled. I'm dwangoAC, TASVideos Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; when healthy, I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
Posted: 8/14/2010 9:04 AM
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Dada
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
I remember this game :) The music is brilliant. Nice WIP, but yeah, hopefully things will get more exciting during the multi ball part.
Posted: 8/14/2010 1:12 PM
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miseiler
Joined: 5/13/2009
Posts: 141
Looks good! I'm definitely entertained so far. Looking forward to the rest :)
Posted: 9/6/2010 9:58 AM
Post subject: Final WIP before submission! Feedback appreciated.
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dwangoAC
Moderator, Senior Ambassador, Experienced player (907)
Joined: 9/14/2008
Posts: 1014
Exotic platforms TASer of 2015 Exotic platforms TASer of 2013
Greetings, Here's the final WIP .jrsr file (which contains a re-record count that's a little on the low side): http://sonic.net/~ac/tas/dwangoAC-WIP-Epic-Pinball-05.jrsr I've also encoded the entire run through to the exit to DOS; please note that the file is 33 MB and I have a 1GB bandwidth cap per month so if you download this please consider leaving some feedback: http://sonic.net/~ac/tas/dwangoAC-WIP-Epic-Pinball-05.mkv Some quick notes: - Aims to max out every game counter (bumper value, Power Up value, bonus multiplier, Physical Systems tests, and AI) and bring the android to life - Manipulates luck - Makes entertainment and speed tradeoffs It turns out that bringing the android to life takes a lot less time than maxing out the game counters and thus that event actually takes place about halfway through the run. It also turns out that finishing the final physical systems test provides a very, very large score (although I haven't figured out if it's an arbitrary value or not) so there's still a halfway decent ending. I opted to allow the ball to drain to allow the bonus to be counted, quit to the menu, enter my initials for the high score, then quit the game to allow the credit sequence to roll. It feels like the most natural way to end the run and doesn't add a significant amount of time based on the overall movie length of just over 5 minutes. With that said I'd appreciate feedback on whether the ending feels natural or not. I should note that this run does contain some entertainment and speed trade-offs - if you look carefully there are a fair number of very significant glitches, some of which are unavoidable even when playing in realtime. A partial list (which will be fleshed out in the submission text): the ball can fall off the playfield, usually out of the far-left diverted ramp sinkhole, the drop targets on the left don't register being hit, sink holes frequently have balls stuck in them which must be cleared before shots to them register, and getting two-ball multiball when two balls are already on the playfield moves all balls to the plunger lane, which may be a "feature" but sure is unnatural. There are some potential improvements in a future run for better "route planning" as it may be even more entertaining to do everything else first and bring the android to life as the very last event. With that said this is fairly close to the most optimal you can make this run without making entertainment sacrifices or going crazy looking for luck manipulation improvements. Anyway, let me know if the run and the encode are good enough for a submission. I'll probably submit the run sometime tomorrow unless there's a strong opinion against it. Thanks for any feedback you may have, A.C. ******
I was laid off in May 2023 and became too ill to work this year and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD is stalled. I'm dwangoAC, TASVideos Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; when healthy, I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
Posted: 9/6/2010 2:35 PM
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Noob_Irdoh
Joined: 6/4/2009
Posts: 570
Location: 33°07'41"S, 160°42'04"W
Oh my God I loved this! I am glad to give you preliminary feedback, this is great. Sure there were some weak transitional moments, but the multiball sections, especially the one with 3 balls, were great. Epic Pinball has always been one of my favourite games of all time, and I was so disappointed when I found out that the score was reseted to zero when I reached 4 billions (32 bit). Yes vote in advance.