Yoshi Team: up+B seems to work perfectly, try to manipulate yoshis or hit them faster
Using up B is very slow, and it takes a while for it to start moving. Using shine should be a much better bet.
You can manipulate any item you want and can also manipulate which pokemon you want to appear out of a pokeball. I know for the pokemon manipulation it depends on what you press while the pokeball is being thrown/opening, and I imagine other kinds of manipulation would work the same way (depends on input).
For the high score run, you should make getting under 8 minutes a priority since that will give you a huge(r) bonus at the end, even if you have to sacrifice points on the way to get speed.
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up+B not for Fox, but every characters' up+B has a much greater affect on the "teams" as well as all R-Throws. Yes Fox's shine will be used, but if I'm going to try Yoshi Team and get speedster and Yoshi Rainbow with Kirby the uppercut should be considered to kill them quickly, since up+B has a greater result which is true for all characters.
Any item I want... too bad only pokeball with Mew, and tomatoes and hearts for the high score run. what sort of input is used to make the right item fall, and what input makes a certain pokemon appear?
I probably will aim for 8 minutes for the high score, if every level can be improved to uber quality and the Yoshi rainbow with speedster is gotten, and if the polygon is manpulated perfectly than 8 minutes might be doable. You're right, the speed demon award is too good not to shoot for it. And it is a speedrun fastest possible time and getitng highest score should be priority :p
Although, the rejected 7:09 run is 7 minutes with fastest completion, the only real slow down which is Metal mario that lasts 17 seconds, so I figure I can shave off that 17 seconds from the fast Metal Mario fight with swallow suicide, however Fox is way faster in many of the fighting levels with Shine pushing, and really excels at getting speedsters of the teams, so maybe sub 8 minutes os going to be very difficult...
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comicalflop wrote:
what sort of input is used to make the right item fall, and what input makes a certain pokemon appear?
Luck manipulation in this game is pretty easy.
Direction and power at which you throw the pokeball and input after you've thrown it manipulates the pokemon which appears.
The CPU in this game are extremely repetitive so you'll quickly know which moves they do at certain instances etc.
Damn, you've got me wanting to do the Fastest Time run =P
The Fox Teleport technique is very useful against teams. Since it's faster than running and makes you jump (then into a shine or Up+A). It must be used. Also against Master Hand. Why run when you can slide =)
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Yes, for example it seems that Link in hard mode wants nothing more to do than throw bombs, but this was when I was playing normal speed and not recording. and if I edge guard, Link's sword is actually capable of hitting me out of the grab with his down+A (not smash), so in order for the ledge grab to work he needs to be in the air, trying to grab the ledge himself but I'm already there taking up the space?
Do I A) edge grab and wait, B) edge grab and go way down the level in hopes he follows C) go way out to the left and hope he follows or D) swallow and spit him to the left, to ensure that he's off the left edge so that I can force him to edge grab?
I'm hoping I'll learn quickly all the mechanics, and start soon... oh quick q, for the teleport run thing for Fox (I assume it doesn't work for Kirby) you mentioned how you turn left 3 frames, then up one frame (doesn't that make you jump?), then up+A to do the teleport thing... I haven't tested yet but right after you up+A/after you teleport do you turn right for more frames to keep running? Is this a continous pattern for constant faster than running movement or is it like a slide in that it moves fast but slows down?
With Kirby on Mario Bros, does a suicide drop throw (off the retreating end of the moving platform) on Mario count against pacifist? And does it kill Mario before Kirby? If so, try the same thing on the kirby team stage (with wind blowing) and maybe on Fox (off an Arwing).
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Yes the slide makes you jump. But, if you can shine cancel the jump or slide off the edge of an uneven surface this will stop the jump.
Um, it ends with a jump so it isn't an alternative to running. However, it should be used when you would normally run and jump or run and shine cancel (since majority of Fox will be running and shining right)
I can't fully picture that Link scenario =P
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For Mario Bros. Luigi will be killed first, and I think that grabbing an opponent automatically counts as losing Pacifist, but some testing could disprove that... in theory that'd make suicide throws to be very good, but again, I'm not sure if that would work, and even if it did work it would have to kill Mario first, which i think it would because it seems that the enemy hits the ground first, testing will see.
The Kirby blowing is a good idea to push Kirbies off the egde. You get 4,000 points for having Fox get hit off stage by Arwing, but time lost vs. that 4,000 points make me wonder if it's worth it.
Big Edit: Ok, just tested a suicide throw against Link, 3 stock, very easy.
(I see how enemy manipulation in action, which was cool too)
ok, so if you pull off the suicide throw they actually both die together, at the exact same frame. However, it counts as Pacifist, but the loss of life is big because supposedly starting at 1 stock gives you extra bonuses at the very end, and you need the no miss X bonuses, which rack up for each level where you don't die. Also, is there a penalty for dying once/ a bonus for not dying at all? I think you get game clear, no damage clear, but the No miss clear I wonder about because that is 70,000. so big question: does the one death make the no miss clear award disappear?
What's interesting however is that I checked what bonuses I did get. Here are the results:
No item 1,000
Speedster 10,000
Pacifist 60,000
Full Power 5,000
Mystic 7,000
That's right, I got mystic from dying like that, because I had stock 3 and the stage ended before I respawned. So, that's a 2,000 gain right there, as ordinarily I'd have a 5,000 from no Miss, then I'd get 10,000 next round from another no miss, but if I did this with a mystic I'd end round 2 with 12,000.
Also, I bet it might save time to lure Link and then suicide throw, as opposed to making him kill himself but again I don't have thepsychoticworm's vids so I don't know.
As to how I'm going to make the 8 minute mark... I just realized 7:09 is the total time for the rejected SSB run, not in game time, so it's probably doable. Is the speed king/demon based on in game time or overall time? Forsake pacifist Yoshi to get rainbow yoshi and speedster (doable?) and try to reduce time drastically in polygon team fight to get the 80,000 speed demon, which actually hmm only nets 40,000 and the pacifist loss is 60,000 since ordinarily speed king is gotten so net loss of 20,000 there...
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antd wrote:
Yes the slide makes you jump. But, if you can shine cancel the jump or slide off the edge of an uneven surface this will stop the jump.
Um, it ends with a jump so it isn't an alternative to running. However, it should be used when you would normally run and jump or run and shine cancel (since majority of Fox will be running and shining right)
I can't fully picture that Link scenario =P
ok, I'd need to see that slide in action to get an idea of it's best application, a vid would speak a thousand words. oh wait, I see an application in an edit of your post
The Link scenario is: I need to have him kill himself off of the left ledge, the sloped one. I listed 4 ways of doing so, and which would be easiest.
For the scenarios, I'm just trying to recall what thepsychoticworm did do manipulate the enemies to fall of the ledges, and wondering which of those 4 was the fastest.
antd wrote:
Damn, you've got me wanting to do the Fastest Time run =P
The Fox Teleport technique is very useful against teams. Since it's faster than running and makes you jump (then into a shine or Up+A). It must be used. Also against Master Hand. Why run when you can slide =)
haha hey my idea I had dibs! no just kidding, I've got some strategies and improvement ideas for the Fox run, but the need for an accepted SSB run is great that one of us (or both) should do it, but I do feel a little partial to completing the high score run if you understand. The slide does sound like a great technique, for meeting an enemy for the first time or in teams where that happens frequently.
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Shadow Byrn wrote:
Any death of any kind will lose you No Miss Clear.
Aha! I thought as much. That's too bad, it would've been a real good time/point saver of +2,000 lead.
And antd what you definetly should do is incorporate your BtT and BtP records into a run.
idea 1) from reset of game, just do the normal 8 characters for 16 bonuses.
idea 2) ask for special permission to start from SRAM.
idea 3) play through game 3 times, you can do a Fox fast as the first if you want, and maybe a falcon/Ness runs afterwards like I suggested in my PM.
the speed demo bonus is for the in game time because I remember playing the game, took a long lunch break between two levels, coming back and beat it and got the speed demon bonus.
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oh ok GOOD, so it's attainable then. Maybe then getting Yoshi rainbow not nescessary? although breaking the monotony of it with a decked out kill yoshi in order stage would be great, ended with a comet mystic if possible and a speedster as well, so potentially a faster time and a higher score.
Kirby Ranks in pacifist mode is going to be TRICKY
Kirby Ranks in pacifist mode is going to be TRICKY
Well, if you can lure/trick/suck drop them even slightly underneath the stage, they go crazy flying towards the middle. You can always get them to kill each other, possibly with bob-ombs, red shells and mines, and I think if you get one to suicide drop another one it gives you them in the correct order 2 times in 3.
I think red shell may be your best bet.
EDIT:Yoshi Rainbow(50000)+Hawk(15000)=Yoshi Rainbow(50000)+All Variations(15000)>Pacifist(60000)
If it lasts long enough, also tack on Mew Catch or Star Clear.
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I think you could just go to the left and wait. I'm sure he will pull a bomb out and come after you (^^)
I am motivated to at least attempt a fastest time w/ Fox run.
Just watching the rejected run though, (no offence to that guy) but it wasn't entertaining to watch that many jump cancelled shines.
Maybe because I've put it into so many of my Fox combos ~__~
This is the reason why I haven't tried such a run already.
Hmm, technically speaking, I think the Japanese version is faster. There's less hit stun by the attacking character. But who uses Japanese version right ^_~
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it's the luring/trick/suck drop that I'm trying to learn... it's tricky when first trying it, I'll have to practice more but if anyone has any direction movements that they know manipulates enemies then fee free to share, since hanging on the ledge all the time does not seem to work for me.
I think waiting for them to kill each other is a little time consuming, that'll only help in probably polygon team
Yoshi Rainbow + Hawk + Speedster (instead of letting them all die themselves which takes a while) maybe +star finish (since I think up+B is going to be my method of sending all yoshis north off of the screen, although it takes them a little while to fall in background wasting in game seconds.)
and of course, Mew catch or star clear if possible in the longer stages.
antd wrote:
I think you could just go to the left and wait. I'm sure he will pull a bomb out and come after you (^^)
I am motivated to at least attempt a fastest time w/ Fox run.
Just watching the rejected run though, (no offence to that guy) but it wasn't entertaining to watch that many jump cancelled shines.
Maybe because I've put it into so many of my Fox combos ~__~
This is the reason why I haven't tried such a run already.
Hmm, technically speaking, I think the Japanese version is faster. There's less hit stun by the attacking character. But who uses Japanese version right ^_~
you can of course start a Fast Fox, if it looks good in the first two stages then keep going otherwise I'll finish it
Link pulls out bombs like crazy, I'm just scared that A) he'll hit me, but I can undo that and B) that he won't commit himself to suicide. I should probably be testing right now and starting at frame advance to see what happens.
I think that, barring a new technique, that the Shine cancelling is the fastest method, despite being monotonous. I think a big part of making the Fox run is to ensure it won't get rejected. The slide however will break it up with more interesting opening moves.
And I'm sure just a little more time can be shaved in the masterhand fight, the strategy is there but the optimization isn't.
Don't be disuaded to use the Japanese version, while yeah nobody uses it people do make TASes with J version because it is faster. And of course no english, and it'd be fast as hell anyways with U version. do what you ill.
hello all. I just joined the site. I will be getting my SSB64 Kirby pacifist 2.35 mil video online shortly. Its about 12 min long, I used Kirby on very hard with 1 stock, no damage clear, did NOT use a slow down tool(completed in real time, hence the mistakes) and I did use savestates.
you are all welcome to take the challenge and beat the score, I'd love to see your finished video...I'll have the link for it posted shortly.
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thanks a lot, it was quite sad that I could not find the vid anywhere when it expired. It was such a great movie, despite the mistakes. It'll definetly help in planning strategies and knowing what to change when, providing the benchmark to beat.
I'll be using Mupen64 since that's the standard emulator here, and I'll be posting my works in progress which you can view, and most importantly all of your input will be greatly appreciated in this thread.
I'll be the first to say, welcome to the website!
well I've got all uploaded to google video, its in processing(probably streaming it thru the flash converter), don't know how long it will take to do that tho. I'll post when its done.
oh also...I dont use AIM, used to use it, but not anymore. I use WLM(Windows Live Messenger)
I decided to put it on filefront...will post a link to the google version as well.
The video:
http://files.filefront.com/KirbyVH2353785ptswmv/;6272325;;/fileinfo.html
A small piece of advice:
Remember to take careful note of some of the strategies used...like for instance in some of the matches(vs Link) It appears that I'm standing right on the edge when I'm doing the Kirby pacifist drop...when in fact I'm actually about a shadows length away from the edge.
Reason being is if I was exactly on the edge, Link would 'wobble' me off the edge, and I would die before the game automatically 'spits' him out. Thus I carefully stand a short distance from the edge(about the tip of Kirby's shadow on the ground) so as to give some time to wobble around, then fall, and spit Link out automatically at just the right time, sometimes Kirby is out of sight of the cameral right when the match ends(giving you an extra bonus), sometimes Kirby will be in the cameras sight. I'm sure you could work that out with your superplay tools.
This strategy is used against several other players in the run. For some reason, on some of the stages(Pikachu, Metal Mario) I am able to fall right off the edge, after sucking them up, without waiting because The game is designed to make the CPU die first. on some stages, like Links and giant DK's stage, this does not work, so I make up for it with standing a couple centimeters away from the edge.
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Awesome, downloading...
interesting advice, having this vid will be so much better than trying these strategies on my own without guidance. I'll know better what the strategies are once I have the vid, I'll be sure to carefully look at every detail.
One of the big strategy changes I was thinking in one of the levels is Yoshi team- I figure that breaking the pacifist strategy and instead trying to knock them all off ASAP for getting speedster, Yoshi Rainbow (by getting them all in order) Hawk, smashless, etc. will be higher points, and less time than pacifist and make getting speed demon bonus award at Master Hand possible... does this sound feasible to you?
Edit: from now on I will suggest strategies AFTER I see the movie lol oh funny nvm
This is relating to comet mystic bonus award, it is very hard to get... I think the only way to do so by yourself is to be damaged up high enough, which ruins no damage/full power clear, and then float and up+B... in places like Yoshi land, the higest platform is not high enough, and the only other good places either have very high ceilings (Sector Z, ) or I can't get to the highest ground (Yoshi land, Kirby Dreamland, Hyrule Castle, DK)
Hm maybe I should change the color of Kirby in my run... my older brother would always play as blue kirby "the blueberry" as we nicknamed it so maybe I should go blue in homage to him... although I personally prefer pink. Probably with whatever is most visible to the eye, either pink or yellow as you've done.
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thegreginator wrote:
For the high score run, you should make getting under 8 minutes a priority since that will give you a huge(r) bonus at the end, even if you have to sacrifice points on the way to get speed.
just reviewed the video, not going to be a problem at all, considering psychotic worm got speed demon.
Just watched the video and was amazed all over again. I'm going to spend tomorrrow watching it 10-20 times doing extreme analysis and note taking, finding areas of improvement, plan what every single bonus for a level should be, projected scores, strategies, etc.
psychoticworm wrote:
sometimes Kirby is out of sight of the cameral right when the match ends(giving you an extra bonus), sometimes Kirby will be in the cameras sight. I'm sure you could work that out with your superplay tools.
Is this the mystic bonus? I read in a FAQ that it's if you die, you lose a stock and the stage ends before you're repawned... I'll have to check the SSB TAS run I have, Fox goes offscreen many times just before the stage ends and I can check if there are any extra bonuses for that. If it does work, Kirby's Stone is excellent for that.
I do have a couple other suggestions...I would advise that if your 110% serious about this, and ready to be unbeatable for a long time, You change some other stategic moves as well.
1: Versing Samus. In the video, I basically said screw it, and kicked his butt off the stage as fast as possible. I have however gotten a higher score beating him, by getting Acid Clear and Star Finish(letting Acid kill samus upward floating away into a star), and some other bonuses I think. I'll have to play out the scenario to see exactly what I did. But if you could get those, plus all or most of the other bonuses listed in the vs Samus portion, I think it would very well give you a higher score.
I also like the suggestions in fighting the Mario Bros...playing on that level in real time like I did, is very frustrating, but I have been able to get the bonus "True Friend"(not letting your buddy cpu get hit) which is double the amount of points that "Good Friend" is(50,000 I think)
Also I wanted to point out that you can actually Comet Mystic yourself on Hyrule Temple(first level) You go to the highest platform, float all the way up then do your up-B and you end up killing yourself....I don't know if this could be worked into the strategy or not, but if you find a way that would be awesome.
EDIT: I also wanted to point out that you can incorporate the floating bumper in the mario bros stage into a possible pacifist strategy. When you grab an opponent, and do your up throw, if the bumper is in the right position right above the cpu, it will knock the cpu, give him damage, and you still can get pacifist(you do no damage to them yourself) just some random ideas tho.
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psychoticworm wrote:
I do have a couple other suggestions...I would advise that if your 110% serious about this, and ready to be unbeatable for a long time, You change some other stategic moves as well.
1: Versing Samus. In the video, I basically said screw it, and kicked his butt off the stage as fast as possible. I have however gotten a higher score beating him, by getting Acid Clear and Star Finish(letting Acid kill samus upward floating away into a star), and some other bonuses I think. I'll have to play out the scenario to see exactly what I did. But if you could get those, plus all or most of the other bonuses listed in the vs Samus portion, I think it would very well give you a higher score.
I also like the suggestions in fighting the Mario Bros...playing on that level in real time like I did, is very frustrating, but I have been able to get the bonus "True Friend"(not letting your buddy cpu get hit) which is double the amount of points that "Good Friend" is(50,000 I think)
Also I wanted to point out that you can actually Comet Mystic yourself on Hyrule Temple(first level) You go to the highest platform, float all the way up then do your up-B and you end up killing yourself....I don't know if this could be worked into the strategy or not, but if you find a way that would be awesome.
EDIT: I also wanted to point out that you can incorporate the floating bumper in the mario bros stage into a possible pacifist strategy. When you grab an opponent, and do your up throw, if the bumper is in the right position right above the cpu, it will knock the cpu, give him damage, and you still can get pacifist(you do no damage to them yourself) just some random ideas tho.
Acid Clear is 4,000 points, and star finish is 10,000, so yes that' an additional 14,000 points. I think that, given that the TAS will improve this run and that getting speed demon is a given, that some time can be wasted to hog in extra points. Here are the bonuses that are worth wasting time to get: (not applicable to all stages, but some, and most are situational)
All variation: 15,000- possibly one of the team fights enables enough time for me to use all the attacks, they don;t even have to all connect
Mew catch: 15,000- if I can manipulate pokeballs to drop, I can manipulate mew to come out every time.
Hawk: 15,000- a very easy bonus to grab, especially for master hand and the team fights.
smashless/single move: 5,000/8,000 respectively
Mystic: 7,000 if indeed this bonus is what I think it is, being off screen when stage ends, then can be used in practically every stage
comet mystic: but in Hyrule, you swallow Link to make him die at the bottom, I don't think there is any way to spit him out near the bottom of the level, and have enough time to float as high as possible at the top. Nice idea, and it's probably the only place to manually pull off a comet mystoc but is not compatible with the link strategy.
Brother's Calamity: 25,000 beat Luigi first, seems simple enough
Star finish: 10,000 for Team fights, if sending them all into the background via throws or cutter
star clear: 15,000- if a star appears and you're still invincibile when bonuses awarded, free points, but making stars just appear is going to be tricky they drop so rarely
vegetarian: 9,000- while I'm not looking foward to manipulating items left and right, since in my mind it seems more difficult than it probably is in practice, 3 tomatoes = 9,000
Hearts throb: same, 17,000 though. too bad the hearts drop very slowly.
Arwing clear? 3,000, the Fox fight was fast and I don't think the Arwing comes fast enough or does what you want it to
Edit: I just verified that, if you're off screen when the CPU dies, there's no bonus, so no freebie points/mystic bonus that way
