Post by Kyrsimys

Posted: 3/9/2007 6:28 PM

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hero_of_the_day

Player (88)

Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States

It wasn't video taped. So either I make a new TAS, or someone else decides to do it. Until then, we have to go by his word. I do believe his strategy to be very sound, and I think that a decent amount of time can be cut from my run. The trade off is the entertainment factor. Does anyone want to watch 40+ minutes of the same battle over and over?

They're off to find the hero of the day...

Posted: 3/9/2007 6:32 PM

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moozooh

Senior Moderator

Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5770
Location: Away

hero of the day wrote:

Does anyone want to watch 40+ minutes of the same battle over and over?

Provided it's a TAS, and his was the unassisted run, you could probably cut the leveling by about 1/5 or something, and manipulate luck to do the rest. Is it possible?

Warp wrote:

Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.

Posted: 3/9/2007 6:38 PM

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hero_of_the_day

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Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States

Unfortunately no, it is impossible to go in at a lower level. All of lavos' attacks are fixed, and cannot be changed. There is almost no luck manipulation in the game at all, every battle is scripted. edit: even my published run had a fair amount of end-game leveling, and you saw how badly lavos destroyed all the characters except for magus.

They're off to find the hero of the day...

Posted: 3/9/2007 6:50 PM

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Saturn

Player (209)

Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451

Yeah, considering that Magus had the highest level of all when joining (along with best magic defense which is a must at lavos') it's frightening to imagine how badly the last battle would be if following this 3:49 guide. But even though entertainment would suck compared to your current run, I think fastest time for this game is still a more valueable goal in this case. Also somebody (including myself) could make a seperate video with the leveling up battles cut out if requested.

See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun

Posted: 3/9/2007 6:56 PM

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dezbeast

Former player

Joined: 3/10/2006
Posts: 347
Location: Maryland, United States

hero of the day wrote:

Unfortunately no, it is impossible to go in at a lower level. All of lavos' attacks are fixed, and cannot be changed.

So you don't think you could defeat Lavos at a lower level with tools, than the Japanese player did with a console?

Posted: 3/9/2007 6:59 PM

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hero_of_the_day

Player (88)

Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States

That is correct, in fact I don't know if I could beat his time by much even if it was 100% frame perfect. The nature of this game is that every battle is fixed, so if you have the right strategy, you can be on par with any TAS. Do not forget that his run is on the Japanese version of the game, the text scrolls MUCH MUCH faster. For those who don't believe me, or haven't watched my TAS, Please Click here and fast forward to 4:03. Watch how much damage lavos' attack does to everyone except magus, it is astronomical! This was after 20 minutes of leveling up too. I am not lying, serious leveling is the only way to defeat lavos, with or without tools.

They're off to find the hero of the day...

Posted: 3/9/2007 7:32 PM

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Saturn

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Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451

hero of the day wrote:

For those who don't believe me, or haven't watched my TAS, Please Click here and fast forward to 4:03. Watch how much damage lavos' attack does to everyone except magus, it is astronomical! This was after 20 minutes of leveling up too. I am not lying, serious leveling is the only way to defeat lavos, with or without tools.

Yeah, only survived with 44 HP. The others had no chance by far. Hero is damn right about what he says, one level lower wouldn't make it already, even with strongest character.

See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun

Posted: 3/9/2007 7:39 PM

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laughing_gas

Former player

Joined: 10/1/2006
Posts: 1102
Location: boot_camp

Still, the new run almost forces us to start a new TAS, no matter how much leveling it needs or boring it looks.

Borg Collective wrote:

Negotiation is irrelevant. Self-determination is irrelevant. You will be assimilated.

Posted: 3/9/2007 7:51 PM

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hero_of_the_day

Player (88)

Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States

Hell, if anyone wants to start a new run they have my full support. I can almost guarantee no one will work on this game though, it is just too long and tedious. If anyone tries, I can give some pointers and stuff. The only way I will redo the run myself is if I get a lot of free time and I have no other projects to work on.

They're off to find the hero of the day...

Posted: 3/9/2007 8:09 PM

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Dromiceius

Joined: 10/3/2005
Posts: 1332

Hero of the Day wrote:

That is correct, in fact I don't know if I could beat his time by much even if it was 100% frame perfect. The nature of this game is that every battle is fixed, so if you have the right strategy, you can be on par with any TAS.

I don't like the sound of that. I've only had time to translate up to Heckran in the boss battle section (it's too rough to bother uploading yet) and so far there's been a lot of him saying "If Crono doesn't get a critical hit, reset" and "this may take many attempts." I assume resetting is out of the question, but do you think there's any way to manipulate it so specifically that Crono gets a critical hit before the Nth turn in, say, the Dragon Tank fight? These things are planned out down to the last detail, so if anything is off, it'll probably go to kuck. Edit: Of course, this only pertains to boss battles. The leveling strategy should still work regardless.

Posted: 3/9/2007 8:19 PM

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hero_of_the_day

Player (88)

Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States

Yes, reseting will alter the attack pattern, but that seems to be the only way. I have even tried delaying the beginning of a battle to see if the critical hit pattern would change, but it didn't work.

They're off to find the hero of the day...

Posted: 3/9/2007 10:52 PM

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skamastaG

Former player

Joined: 6/25/2006
Posts: 138
Location: Fort Collins, CO

laughing_gas wrote:

Still, the new run almost forces us to start a new TAS, no matter how much leveling it needs or boring it looks.

This makes it sounds like the purpose of the site is just to beat console speed runs with tools because we can. But actually it's for making tool-assisted runs that have both speed and entertainment qualities that are played with frame perfect precision. From what I am hearing, an improvement to this run using the 3:49 strategy sounds boring and doesn't seem like it would fit on this site. I am saying that just because a console speedrun beat a TAS doesn't mean we are obligated to beat it to prove we are better if it does not match the purpose of the site by creating an entertaining movie.

Posted: 3/10/2007 1:27 AM

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jaysmad

Other

Experienced player (834)

Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 629
Location: Mom's

skamastaG wrote:

I am saying that just because a console speedrun beat a TAS doesn't mean we are obligated to beat it to prove we are better if it does not match the purpose of the site by creating an entertaining movie.

I'm not sure but i think the sites primary goal is speed since games like MM and all are being so broken. If it would be about entertainment there would be a "Show Off Your Moves" topic. But seriously it is quite essential that someone does a new run since it could be improved. Take me for example, I submited my Aladdin run without knowing that the final battle could be improved. Everyone found it nice until someone posted that it could be faster. But i understand that people are impressed with the low rerecord count that hero did and the fact that it is freakin long to do :P

Posted: 3/10/2007 2:14 AM

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hero_of_the_day

Player (88)

Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States

I do not think my low re-record count is very impressive, it really just shows laziness on my part. While the run was made in frame advance, I spammed the turbo buttons to keep the frame testing down to a minumium. This is the only way to approach this game due to it's length. The run took me 6 days to make. If I meticulously frame search through every single dialog, the run would have taken about 1 year to complete. That explains my low re-record count. The aspect of my run that I believe to be impressive, is very unique and low level boss strategies that I myself designed. I am proud of my strategies, the Japanese runner seemed to use many of them until the point where he stops advancing the story and simply levels up. There is no great need to beat his record, it really doesn't matter. His run receives a different ending, and as such it might even be considered a different category. My run goes through the entire "natural" story line, while his cuts out the last portion of the story. Like I said before, I would love to see a new run more than anyone else, but there is little chance anyone will be up for the task.

They're off to find the hero of the day...

Posted: 3/10/2007 2:48 AM

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Bob_A

Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 432

you think? i thought this opportunity would be jumped upon, but now that it seems that that isn't the case, i'm seriously considering doing the run. and if i do, i'll probably do it in japanese, both because hero of the day said the text part would be significantly faster, and because the english translation sucks.

Posted: 3/10/2007 3:19 AM

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hero_of_the_day

Player (88)

Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States

Go for it dude! you might want to consider using the english version, simply because you can accurately compare times to my run. Either way, good luck.

They're off to find the hero of the day...

Posted: 3/10/2007 3:54 AM

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Dromiceius

Joined: 10/3/2005
Posts: 1332

Bob A wrote:

you think? i thought this opportunity would be jumped upon, but now that it seems that that isn't the case, i'm seriously considering doing the run. and if i do, i'll probably do it in japanese, both because hero of the day said the text part would be significantly faster, and because the english translation sucks.

Cool. Are you going to want the rest of the time attack report translated?

Posted: 3/10/2007 6:37 AM

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Saturn

Player (209)

Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451

Bob A wrote:

you think? i thought this opportunity would be jumped upon, but now that it seems that that isn't the case, i'm seriously considering doing the run. and if i do, i'll probably do it in japanese, both because hero of the day said the text part would be significantly faster, and because the english translation sucks.

I also did consider to eventually make that run, but since you're up to it I wish you good luck! But please, I really would recommend to use the english version. As hero said, it would be a better comparison on how much time the new route can save, and it would generally be of much more use simply because most of the people could read the dialogs and understand the game much better while watching it in english. Going with the japanese version just because of the slight time gain would be a big mistake IMO, but of course it's up to you. And I think hero has a good point. It would be a good option to not replace his run with this new one but add it in another category, simply because it indeed cuts out alot of the game story and shows a amazingly cool Lavos strategy with Magus, which alone is worth a look. On the other hand, the goals of both movies are pretty identical to aim for lowest possible time, so it's a problem to properly decide again. And skamastaG, we don't do a TAS to prove or show that a TAS is still faster than a console run, but just to achive the goal which is the main one on this site in most cases. "Fastest time". Pretty obvious.

See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun

Posted: 3/10/2007 8:41 AM

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Bob_A

Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 432

hero of the day and saturn: thanks. dromiceius: i don't know; i might be able to make it out myself. concerning which version tu use: actually, i was thinking that using the japanese version would make it easier to compare to the unassisted run. if i do make a run in japanese and everyone wants to see it in english, i'll also do one in english; maybe then i'll submit both and see which get published. edit: dromiceius, i looked at your translation and found some major mistakes in the first paragraph. it should read something like this: this paper details the chrono trigger speedrun in 3:49 i made 19/2/07. the document's main point is killing lavos extremely early, before getting silvard [a.k.a., epoch]. hence, the speedrun cuts out everything from the undergroud sewer ruins to the appearance of the black dream [omen], saving a great deal of time. the last sentence is sketchy, but i think that's basically what it says. yours is this: This report, created on February 19, 2007, details my Chrono Trigger time attack in 3:49. This document's greatest point is obtaining silver-points to kill Lavos at an extremely early point in the game. Undersea palace has been cut entirely for great justice, etc. which is something quite different. have you actually played the game in japanese? i don't trust your translation, but unfortunately reading japanese is very tedious for me. for example, trying to figure out what the hell "konashiteita" means.

Posted: 3/10/2007 12:46 PM

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Cmuxmt

Joined: 10/2/2005
Posts: 79

Please consider using the English version.

Posted: 3/10/2007 4:51 PM

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Dromiceius

Joined: 10/3/2005
Posts: 1332

Bob A wrote:

which is something quite different. have you actually played the game in japanese? i don't trust your translation, but unfortunately reading japanese is very tedious for me. for example, trying to figure out what the hell "konashiteita" means.

My translation was deliberately rushed, as it was primarily a search for the most salient information. I also assumed that section 5 would make sense mainly from context and the runner's own knowledge of the game, even if it has some mistakes in the translation. After all, you shouldn't be dependent on the guide says, since this is a TAS and not a time attack, and even the author of the report states that even though his strategy is an improvement, it isn't necessarily perfect. Section 6, on the other hand, I've taken my time with so far, since the complexity of the grammar and importance of the details are considerable. ...Of course, it remains to be seen if the boss strategies can actually work in a TAS as they do in a segmented speedrun, so you may be on your own there, with or without a translation. I think I'll probably continue for the sake of the accomplishment, if nothing else. Or at least edit section 5.

Posted: 3/11/2007 1:23 AM

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Bag_of_Magic_Food

He/Him

Active player (278)

Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712

hero of the day wrote:

Yes, reseting will alter the attack pattern, but that seems to be the only way.

Wait, so are you saying that this can only be done as a segmented run? A tool-assisted time-attack would contain tons of resets for manipulating the luck that might actually make the run longer in order to make the route work?

Saturn wrote:

It would be a good option to not replace his run with this new one but add it in another category, simply because it indeed cuts out alot of the game story and shows a amazingly cool Lavos strategy with Magus, which alone is worth a look.

STOP IT I'm sick of people who are too scared to obsolete anything. It's not as if the obsoleted movie doesn't have its own page you can always refer back to. And how is the category any different?

put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude

Posted: 3/11/2007 2:59 AM

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hero_of_the_day

Player (88)

Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States

I really don't care if my run is obsoleted. I enjoy seeing a game I love being pushed to the limit, even if that means my name is no longer attached to it. No author should get upset when a run of theirs is beaten, that is the nature of perfection. When this new run is done, it will receive a yes vote from me. But you are wrong about one thing Bag of Magic Food. This run receives a vastly different ending. In fact there are over a dozen different endings in this game depending on when lavos is beaten. Don't attack Saturn because he voiced his opinion. Many games here have multiple runs which each receive different endings. Like I said before, I will vote for this new run to obsolete mine, as long as the quality is up to par.

They're off to find the hero of the day...

Posted: 3/11/2007 5:10 AM

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Bag_of_Magic_Food

He/Him

Active player (278)

Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712

As long as you're making runs for two endings, you may as well make a run for every ending then!!!!

put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude