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Posted: 4/27/2007 4:52 PM
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peteyboo
Joined: 11/2/2006
Posts: 8
So uhh... What is Reverse Bottle Adventure? As in, how exactly (key word here is EXACTLY) do you do it?
Posted: 4/27/2007 7:00 PM
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captain_compost
Joined: 1/20/2007
Posts: 26
Location: Hamilton, ON.
Holy shit, just when I think a game is as raped as it's gonna get, this happens.... Great job, Acryte, I have no clue how you figured this out, but the community thanks you for what you've done! Too bad that damn odd potion can't be picked up as child, then it would be a whole new level of rapeage.
Posted: 4/27/2007 7:01 PM
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Hina98
Joined: 3/15/2007
Posts: 131
peteyboo wrote:
So uhh... What is Reverse Bottle Adventure? As in, how exactly (key word here is EXACTLY) do you do it?
Acryte wrote:
Instructions for Reverse BA: [Key: C=Child A=Adult] A.5 -> B[Bug], C-Right[Poacher's Saw]. Fish is fine too but you won't learn Nocturne so you have to grab a bug sometime before trading poacher's saw or else you lose Prelude of light by using empty bottle to learn it. A.8 -> B[Bug], C-Right[Broken Goron's Sword]. If the Bug is used instead of a Fish then you also get the Water Medallion too (Not like it matters). A.11 -> B[Bug],C-Right[Bottled Letter]. If the Bug is used instead of a Fish then you get 29 arrows updated instead of 25 w/ the Fish (not like it matters since you only get 1 shot) Description: Bottle Adventure is about using the items on C-right to get things onto the B button by traveling forwards and backwards in time. Reverse Bottle Adventure is about using the Bottle on B w/ different things you can catch to update things into your inventory that are determined by both the item on C-right (which determines the type) and the item on B (which determined the quantity of the adjusted amount, or the specific things that are altered in the menu). Steps: Put the required item on C-right, then Catch the specified object in the Bottle that is on B (or empty it and catch it), in order to update your inventory appropriately. NOTES: HAHAHA I used it to unequip and delete my Kokiri Tunic.... I want to see a like like eat me after I equip another tunic and see what happens...
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Posted: 4/27/2007 8:21 PM
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Spider-Waffle
Banned User
Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
AHH I get it now, reverse BA doesn't mean you got back in time, that name is confusing. So the main feature of this route is that you get forest medallion with the BGS and the equivalent of a bow with letter in a bottle. So then this saves time by not having to get hook shot, fairy bow, forest medallion and do ganon early. But you have to get BGS, letter in a bottle, watch light arrow and bridge cut scene, and do more reverse BA. If you’re getting din's fire, why do you need to do “9. Use Nocturne of Shadow to warp to Graveyard + Go to Magic Fairy Fountain” The only reason your getting hover boots if for the broken bridge, yes? Getting hover boots takes traveling to graveyard, four bomb hovers, and going to and killing that arm guy. Wouldn’t bomb hovers plus side hop to cross broken bridge be much faster than this? Could you use bombchus or sling shot/ bow to speed it up? How many would it take, like 8-10? Remember you’re already doing four the other way plus all that other stuff. Oh, maybe you want hover boots for the ganon castle trick? Is the jump slash trick the only other way? Once you have the one arrow shot ready can you equip sword?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 4/27/2007 9:34 PM
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Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (734)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Speedy TAS of 2009
Spider-Waffle wrote:
The only reason your getting hover boots if for the broken bridge, yes? Getting hover boots takes traveling to graveyard, four bomb hovers, and going to and killing that arm guy. Wouldn’t bomb hovers plus side hop to cross broken bridge be much faster than this? Could you use bombchus or sling shot/ bow to speed it up? How many would it take, like 8-10? Remember you’re already doing four the other way plus all that other stuff.
Also keeping in mind that you can use reverse BA to replenish bombchus, giving seemingly endless amounts. Unless of course Hoverboots are gotten for that. I dunno, the "rainbow Bridge" cutscene really is not that bad, I'm sure that getting the hoverboots takes longer than watching the bridge appear. But wait, I forgot, what is Ganon early? is it a way of skipping the tower and going instantly to some Ganon fight?
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Posted: 4/27/2007 9:39 PM
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Soulrivers
Former player
Joined: 12/27/2006
Posts: 532
Location: Göteborg, Sweden
Not really, comicalflop. Either you use bombhovers to reach the ledge beyond the barrier, or you do the trick inside the fire trials (no video avaliable, sorry). Don't know if you know about it.
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Posted: 4/27/2007 9:42 PM
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JSmith
Joined: 8/1/2006
Posts: 428
Teh currently published run uses Ganon Early. It's the trick with the Armos statue.
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Posted: 4/27/2007 10:04 PM
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captain_compost
Joined: 1/20/2007
Posts: 26
Location: Hamilton, ON.
JSmith wrote:
Teh currently published run uses Ganon Early. It's the trick with the Armos statue.
I thought that was called the Trial Skip/barrier skip.
Posted: 4/27/2007 10:05 PM
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laughing_gas
Former player
Joined: 10/1/2006
Posts: 1102
Location: boot_camp
That's called skipping the ganon trials, not ganon early. edit: crap, cc beat me to it. Anyhow ganon early means getting to the castle without rainbow bridge.
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Posted: 4/27/2007 10:32 PM
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Spider-Waffle
Banned User
Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
Anyone care to comment on my proposal to skip the hover boots? If you can do the quick trials skip it seems like it'd have to be faster. No travelling to graveyard, no travelling to hover boots, no killing arm guy, no open chest cut scene, no extra death warp. Only thing extra is the four or so more bomb hovers, plus a little slower trails skip.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 4/28/2007 2:26 AM
(Edited: 4/28/2007 2:48 AM)
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Acryte
Joined: 1/10/2006
Posts: 144
Location: Oregon
AKA - Firstoff we need to go to Gerudo as a child to get the mushroom. We also need to go to gerudo as an adult in order to give the poacher's saw to the head carpenter. How it saves time: We complete half of shadow, and then go to ganondorf. That is all we have to do temple-wise in the adult section. Since Spirit temple is now skipped entirely, we have no need for early bombchus from spirit because it wastes time. Time to get there + requiem cutscene (unless you go all the way to gauntlets exit) > the time saved in dodongo's alone. Mainly because we end up having bombs for Zora's anyways and so we only lose time in Dodongo's Cavern as a child... BUT we save time by skipping early spirit anyways. The extra diversion to go to gerudo valley doesn't matter much because we only spend 1/3 of the time we would already be spending on early spirit anyways. Good call about Epona early, however, I was thinking hoversuperslide might be faster but I'm thinking epona early is faster though simply because we already have to go to gerudo again and the time taken to run to LonLon is just on the way there (from Lost Woods) provided we don't come from Lake Hylia warp and just go to ToT or something... I'll look that over and see what the best route for that is. Then we can see which one is indeed faster. This route is alot faster than the old one though because we skip: HOOKSHOT (Dampe's Race), We can still skip Din's (don't worry about that I was just bringing up all our options), Forest Temple, Minuet Cutscene, going back in time at all. Reverse BA is fast too, much faster than BA because it can be done anywhere and all it takes is the time to drop and catch a fish, bug, etc. Spiderwaffle - That isn't so great an idea because we don't have a sword to do sword hove with. Our B button is a Bottle... otherwise we would need to ammend the route w/:learn the songs, go to gerudo, equip sword, trade BGS, warp to hylia, do steal rod glitch AND reverse BA again. I'm totally in agreement w/ AKA though about epona early. also AKA, unless you have bombchus, you can't get more bombchus through reverse bottle adventure... it requires a bombchu to be on C-right in order to give you a bottle in the menu where the bombchu is (aka what we don't want at all). But a Poe can be used to refresh a bombchu capacity to 25, 29, etc, unfortunately that can't be done till you are an adult which rules out that, however if we beat dodongo's normally and do bowling, we can grab bombchu from the well if it is indeed necessary, but I don't understand why we need a bombchu anyways. If 1 bomb and 1 bombchu can do it, then 2-3 bombs in a bombhover could do it.
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Posted: 4/28/2007 2:43 AM
(Edited: 4/28/2007 2:50 AM)
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Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (734)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Speedy TAS of 2009
Where else can we get Deku nuts (if we aren't going to Spirit early) should we get them in Deku Tree or elsewhere? How can you do a hover superslide without skipping the hoverboots, because we're skipping the hookshot? (there is that gap in shadow temple that needs crossing...) How can we even do Epona early, without the sword? without chus or spirit early (silver guantlets), how exactly are we going to get into, or even do dodongo's cavern without doing bombchu bowling first? ugh, too much "we can't do this" words on my part, what the heck do I know? I'm hoping these are valid questions with easy answers.
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Posted: 4/28/2007 2:49 AM
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Acryte
Joined: 1/10/2006
Posts: 144
Location: Oregon
The answer for epona early is simple, you do it when you would do the hoverboots early (aka when you have a sword to fight dead hand) aah fuck I overlooked getting into dodongos lol. I knew I'd do something like that. The route will need work then.
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Posted: 4/28/2007 3:07 AM
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Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (734)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
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Easy solution: bombchu bowling before then, i.e. before any other dungeons, maybe when getting the Lon Lon Ranch bottle (is it real easy and fast to get this? any night/day issues i.e. will we spend too many minutes waiting for daylight?) no need to get kakiriko bottle then, since grabbing the cuccoos takes a few min on its own.
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Posted: 4/28/2007 3:26 AM
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Acryte
Joined: 1/10/2006
Posts: 144
Location: Oregon
I thought you couldn't do bombchu bowling till after dodongos...
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Posted: 4/28/2007 3:28 AM
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Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (734)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Speedy TAS of 2009
so we're boned?
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Posted: 4/28/2007 3:36 AM
(Edited: 4/29/2007 5:44 AM)
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Acryte
Joined: 1/10/2006
Posts: 144
Location: Oregon
THANKS Comicalflop, AKA, and Yautycakes for the route. (Last Updated on 4/28/07 @ 22:37 Route Changes: Child: 1. Get Sword + Shield 2. Beat Deku Tree [Grab Slingshot] 3. Early Spirit (Bombchus) (we get bombbag in dodongos, I think it's faster than silver gauntlets from spirit because of the extra cutscene) 4. Kokiri Forest -> Lost Woods -> Goron City -> Death Mountain Trail -> Dodongo's Cavern (Beat it normally... groundjump to switch, early Bomb Bag, and light eyes) 5. Kakariko Bottle 6. Superslide to Gerudo Valley (Odd Mushroom) 7. Gerudo Valley River -> Hylia (Get Caught) 8. Gold Scale + Letter in Bottle 9. Hylia -> Zora's Domain 10. Jabu Jabu (Jumpslash to Enter) 11. Beat Jabu Jabu 12. Grab OoT and pull Master Sword Adult: 1. Go to Kakariko Village + Get Odd Potion 2. Kakariko -> Hyrule field -> Superslide to Kokiri Forest -> Lost woods -> Get Poachers Saw -> Superslide to Lon Lon 3. Steal Epona (off the left side fence) 4. Ride Epona To Lake Hylia (Epona can jump fences and save time vs climbing the ladder) 5. Catch Bug + Bombhover to Fishing Pond + Steal Rod and get Bottle on B (we need to see how many this takes) 6. Use Reverse BA to get Warp Songs (Prelude + Lullaby + Serenade + Nocturne) 7. Ride Epona to Gerudo Valley 8. Jump across Broken Bridge + Get Broken Goron Sword 9. Use Reverse BA to get Forest, Spirit, Shadow Medallions (if bug is used you also get the Water Medallion too) 10. Use Nocturne of Shadow to warp to Graveyard + Go to Magic Fairy Fountain 11. Warp to ToT using Prelude + Get Light Arrows 12. Use Reverse BA to update 25 Arrows into the arrow quantity. (Note that you get 1 shot and then since you have no bow or quiver, then it will 0 the value. This step can be done whenever) 13. See Rainbow Bridge Cutscene and go to Ganondorf 14. Equip MS 15. Kill Ganon _________________________________ Instructions for Reverse BA: [Key: C=Child A=Adult] A.6 -> B[Bug], C-Right[Poacher's Saw]. Fish is fine too but you won't learn Nocturne so you have to grab a bug sometime before trading poacher's saw or else you lose Prelude of light by using empty bottle to learn it. A.9 -> B[Bug], C-Right[Broken Goron's Sword]. If the Bug is used instead of a Fish then you also get the Water Medallion too (Not like it matters). A.12 -> B[Bug],C-Right[Bottled Letter]. If the Bug is used instead of a Fish then you get 29 arrows updated instead of 25 w/ the Fish (not like it matters since you only get 1 shot) Description: Bottle Adventure is about using the items on C-right to get things onto the B button by traveling forwards and backwards in time. Reverse Bottle Adventure is about using the Bottle on B w/ different things you can catch to update things into your inventory that are determined by both the item on C-right (which determines the type) and the item on B (which determined the quantity of the adjusted amount, or the specific things that are altered in the menu). Steps: Put the required item on C-right, then Catch the specified object in the Bottle that is on B (or empty it and catch it), in order to update your inventory appropriately.
Wisdom; Power; Courage.
Posted: 4/28/2007 10:53 AM
(Edited: 4/28/2007 11:06 AM)
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Mitjitsu
He/Him
Banned User
Joined: 4/24/2006
Posts: 2997
TAS of 2007 N64 TAS of 2007
Won't you lose Epona as soon as you enter the fishing pond, I know sometimes you can get Epona without having to play the song, but I think as soon as you enter a transtional area without Epona then you've automatically lost her. EDIT: YAY over 100,000 views now!
Posted: 4/28/2007 11:00 AM
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Acryte
Joined: 1/10/2006
Posts: 144
Location: Oregon
Nah, I was pretty sure epona doesn't disappear. Tested it out, and she doesn't. The route seems pretty solid except for those areas which have choices, but if anyone has ideas for rejigging the orders or omiting and adding things to make it faster then please discuss away.
Wisdom; Power; Courage.
Posted: 4/28/2007 12:03 PM
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YautjaElder
Joined: 3/29/2006
Posts: 273
Location: Sweden
Acryte wrote:
5. Kakariko Bottle (catch bug)
Best place to get those bugs is probably the rocks near the entreance of gerudo valley, or the shrub next to the scarecrow at lake hylia.
Posted: 4/28/2007 12:16 PM
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Tub
Joined: 6/25/2005
Posts: 1377
Wait.. doesn't the BA require you to travel in time? >> 6. Use Reverse BA to get Warp Songs (Prelude + Lullaby + Serenade + Nocturne) wouldn't there still be a cross-dresser blocking the way?
m00
Posted: 4/28/2007 6:06 PM
(Edited: 4/29/2007 11:07 PM)
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Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (734)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
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Edit: Acryte's explanation is better.
AKA wrote:
Won't you lose Epona as soon as you enter the fishing pond, I know sometimes you can get Epona without having to play the song, but I think as soon as you enter a transtional area without Epona then you've automatically lost her.
Interestingly, I made this same inquiry last night when planning the new route with Acryte. You and I think too much alike :-p
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Posted: 4/28/2007 8:17 PM
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Acryte
Joined: 1/10/2006
Posts: 144
Location: Oregon
Yauty - thx for that, I think we should use the scarecrow one then. Great call. Tub - BA requires going back in time, it uses drawing the mastersword to update the B button which changes what is on B through what is on C-right which acts as a pointer to an item in the menu or an item amount in the menu that is usually changeable. Reverse BA doesn't. It's using catching and releasing things from the Bottle on B to update the inventory. The item on C-right acts as the catalyst for the general type of thing that is altered in the menus, while the certain item being caught in the bottle changes the specific item type that is refreshed into the inventory. So in short, No, it doesn't require going back in time at all. Oh, and make sure when you do superslides, you do it the hard way. Backrun constantly and then before the bomb blows, shielddrop it and roll forwards into it to do the superslide. That way you aren't losing time you could be moving as you wait on the bomb. Using backrun w/ manual superslides is tough because the timing for the roll can make it go sideways if you don't time it right (though this is a TAS so who cares about the difficulty lol) Well... is 2a faster than 2b? when I get home I can make a map and time it out and do side by side comparison for 2a vs 2b
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Posted: 4/28/2007 11:54 PM
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Spider-Waffle
Banned User
Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
Would it be faster to death warp to ToT, instead of song warp? How are you supposed to get into dondago's normally anyway? So you need a sword to do any type of bomb hovers? So I guess the reason you don't want to bomb hover to cross broken bridge is that after you get BGS you wouldn't be able to warp to anywhere good like the graveyard.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 4/29/2007 12:08 AM
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Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (734)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Speedy TAS of 2009
Song warps are faster than you might think. dying requires to plan carefully ahead to take damage enough to be low health, than the death animation, choose to not continue, select the file again, then load inside ToT. Playing the prelude is taking out Ocarina, play the song, and 2 short screen scenes, easy cheesy. Of course, it's 6 seconds slower if you don't already have the ocarina out. Getting into dodongo's early was exactly a flaw I pointed out. (massive time could be saved had we thought of that earlier with one route suggestion.) we've concluded that going to spirit temple early as normal, and doing a deathwarp is still fastest. we also considered getting 10 skulltulas to buy an adult wallet and then buy some bomchus, and also doing well early and getting the bomchus in the chest. The first was way slower, the second was sooooo close to working but not quite, because Acryte wall clipped in many areas, but was centimeters shy from having the water level be at the right height to swim underneath the walls and get to the chest.. Yes you need a sword to do bomb hovers, so no BA/reverse BA stuff is done before bomb hovers in adult section are needed.
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