Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Yes to skip emeralds, yes I'm continuing. As had been noted by Zer0, route planning emeralds requires extra time, while adding nothing to entertainment (degrading it actually.) I like the natural flow/procession of one course to the next sans emeralds (a way faster transition from zone to zone compared to the other sonic games, so ratio wise this should have the most action), but I can't recall if in this topic it was determined if the final boss can be beaten without them. But Zer0 had said "no emeralds" so that's how I'm going as well.
"I'm pretty sure I used to roll a little in advance, then jump as I hit the robot, sometimes that can nab the flickie"
this was one Sonic player's suggestion. This would require precise frame timing and control, because I noticed jumping on or into enemies really cuts off your control of Sonic in the air, and he goes very far away from the Flickie. This is caused by the extreme 'bounce' when jumping up into or on enemies, and this results in a big acceleration away from the destroyed enemy. (of note, this effect does not work at high speeds... jumping on an enemy at max speed makes you bounce off and sail through the air at normal max speed. so no speed boost- unless you are at a normal stop- but a good vertical height boost.) However, from SprintGod's videos it does seem that this is the method by which he does it. This was mostly what I was doing in my previous WIP, so I guess this will be the method for when a spindash is not the fastest for getting to the next destination, such as very close by or many turns ahead.
Joined: 6/20/2004
Posts: 292
Location: United Kingdom
comicalflop wrote:
but I can't recall if in this topic it was determined if the final boss can be beaten without them.
I don't think you can, which was one of the reasons i was asking. I don't really mind though, it's still a run i'm looking forward to! Good luck with it.
but I can't recall if in this topic it was determined if the final boss can be beaten without them.
I don't think you can, which was one of the reasons i was asking. I don't really mind though, it's still a run i'm looking forward to! Good luck with it.
Taken from http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/genesis/file/586469/27531
"[previous level walkthrough:] ...Once you destroy both arms, you win. The ending is a little different
in each version of the game. However, if you have all the Chaos Emeralds read
on!
14. The Final Fight
This exists only if you have the seven Chaos Emeralds. It's you versus
Robotnik's Final Weapon."
adelikat wrote:
I very much agree with this post.
Bobmario511 wrote:
Forget party hats, Christmas tree hats all the way man.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
From that site:
"5. Special Stage
The Special Stage is how you find the Chaos Emeralds. It is a bonus stage that exists out of the regular game. You don't need to collect all 7 Chaos Emeralds to win the game, but you do need them to fight the true final boss."
So that settles it then. No Final Fight, but the game can be 'beaten' i.e. get to the credits.
A 100% run can be made, getting the emeralds, and doing the final fight in order to achieve 'best ending'.
But Any% comes first, since it's shorter and more entertaining.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Difficult!
ok I'm done. The game is tough to play. However, it probably will be easy to optimize now that I have the speed value, and already know where to go, what to do, etc. v1 took me a day to do, so I wouldn't call this the most difficult Sonic game to TAS ever (and in no way wanted to convey that at all) it's just the physics are very different and tricky to make work for me, as opposed to against me. I wanted to figure out how the game works, in order to determine what to do in each situation and be able to construct proven methods/techniques of what is fastest.
Green Grove Zone 1 v2 is roughly 20% complete, ~20 frames saved so far. This will break the 47 second barrier for sure, so shouldn't take that long.
So that settles it then. No Final Fight, but the game can be 'beaten' i.e. get to the credits.
A 100% run can be made, getting the emeralds, and doing the final fight in order to achieve 'best ending'.
better idea:
Do a bonus gmv which uses level select to start at Final Fight. Link to it from the submission text.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
huh not a bad idea. I'd need a .sram that has access to Final Fight to do that, since level select is not accessible from a clean SRAM. And I'm not sure if the Final Fight is the most exciting thing on the planet.
But as a bonus fight for audiences, yeah, I can see that happening.
huh not a bad idea. I'd need a .sram that has access to Final Fight to do that, since level select is not accessible from a clean SRAM.
I don't believe Sonic 3D blast uses sram
I was refering to the code
Go to the Press Start screen and enter the code: B,A, Right, A, C, Up, Down, A (or baracuda). You should then be taken to the main screen. Press the Start Option ad the level select will appear next. Choose your level and begin play.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Hm, I can't get it to work... is it version specific? (or I might be doing something wrong).
Anyways, definitely something to think about later, but not now. although I don't know if too much time can be saved from the 3:38 WR. There's not much you can do in Sonic bosses except to hit them on the first possible frame.
The additional fight is so long and boring that I don't think getting the emeralds are worth getting. BTW if the Saturn version got submitted would that be allowed to obselete the GENS version.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
I see all of the WR's set using the Sega version, which seems to be the one they use solely here. (BTW, I joined the forums there so that I can snoop around the Sonic experts and get tips. Turns out, so far my discoveries have helped them more than what they have to offer me. o_O)
From what I gathered, Saturn had superior special stages, and people wanted to see some sort of 100% involved with that since the bonuses are more entertaining.
However, my guess is going to be no it should not obsolete it, I don't think an any% saturn 3d TAS should obsolete a sega any% TAS. (In fact, I think the version differences makes sega have an overall faster completion time, but I'm not positive.)
We won't really know until Saturn emulation hits the scene, and we see more of what it will look like and whether it should obsolete it or not.
Joined: 6/20/2004
Posts: 292
Location: United Kingdom
The Sega Saturn special stages were basically an updated version of the Sonic 2 special stages, that is if my memory serves me correctly. It was all done in proper 3d though and was amazing at the time. I own the PC and Genesis versions, and used to own the SS version.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
At a point in time when Saturn emulation is possible, if indeed the levels are faster and the game looks cleaner graphics/better, than yes I guess that could obsolete this one. But a question best left alone until such time that Saturn TASing becomes reality.
Update: Just killed 5th robot, so technically (not time wise) 50% done. ~ 18 in-game time seconds played, 67 frames saved so far, definitely more to follow.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
no. I already have a test run of each course, i.e. the WR speedruns for them. I'd of course explore other options when I reach each level, and obviously improve a lot with frame precision.
The game is straightforward enough that not too much route testing is needed. The game itself is very glitch absent.
my v1 of Green Grove Zone 1 was a TAS test run I guess, to see how much time I can knock off from the WR. As soon as I found the speed memory address, I went about finding what is fastest in situations, and from that I've been able to improve upon my v1 attempt by a lot. I will continue this level of optimization of redoing gg1, complete all courses in the same quality and submit.
Edit: when you start rolling on a flat surface, your speed does not oscillate. The first 10 frames your rolling speed is the speed when you started to roll, and then it gradually starts decreasing. Holding B as soon as your speed is 79 will make it stay at 79 for 10 frames, then decrease. very useful for that micro/sub-pixel optimization.
update: about to get the speed boost upgrade tv.
edit: (this is with speed shoes on) When you do a spin dash, and then jump off a slope for the 127 speed boost, the speed boost lasts the entire time that you're in the air, and even when you land on the ground the 127 speed remains, even when running at max speed. Even if you jump the boost stays; only if you turn direction will the 127 boost disappear. The 127 speed does not oscillate at all, so going up hills or down hills is still the same speed.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Green Grove Zone 1 improved is done.
Green Grove 1 Improved / AVI / youtube
In-game timer: 0:45
Frames saved: 161
The run is going for fastest in-game time like many other familiar sonic runs. I picked up a few less rings, and might have saved a few frames from the score tally, but I won't be keeping track.
Many new techniques were used to keep Sonic's oscillating speed at a maximum, as well as taking advantage of speed boosters and ways to navigate around turns without Sonic's speed drastically decreasing.
Wow, that was really impressive... leaps and bounds better than the last version I viewed (icr which one that was). It seems you have also mastered the nigh impossible physics manipulation for this game. Good work, flop!
adelikat wrote:
I very much agree with this post.
Bobmario511 wrote:
Forget party hats, Christmas tree hats all the way man.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Nitsuja just showed me a route change that unoptimized brought the timer down to 0:44. So restarting again, but fortunately from about a little more than halfway through.
Nitsuja just showed me a route change that unoptimized brought the timer down to 0:44. So restarting again, but fortunately from about a little more than halfway through.
Good lord, and I thought :45 was sweet... but unoptomized :44? Daaaamn.. look forward to the WIP!
adelikat wrote:
I very much agree with this post.
Bobmario511 wrote:
Forget party hats, Christmas tree hats all the way man.
Difficult!
ok I'm done. The game is tough to play. However, it probably will be easy to optimize now that I have the speed value, and already know where to go, what to do, etc. v1 took me a day to do, so I wouldn't call this the most difficult Sonic game to TAS ever (and in no way wanted to convey that at all) it's just the physics are very different and tricky to make work for me, as opposed to against me. I wanted to figure out how the game works, in order to determine what to do in each situation and be able to construct proven methods/techniques of what is fastest.
Green Grove Zone 1 v2 is roughly 20% complete, ~20 frames saved so far. This will break the 47 second barrier for sure, so shouldn't take that long.
