Joined: 5/28/2004
Posts: 28
Location: St. Albans, WV
I don't remember if I asked this here or not, but what version is that T:AP video from? I HAVE the Absolute Plus ROMs, and the game does NOT offer a Death Mode to practice with.
Where did it come from?
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Nevermind, finally found Arika's website. Both are different games, didn't realize. *Kicks himself for asking a dumb question*
Does anyone know if there is a reason why "high number of lines" or "fastest to XYZ lines" is not a category for NES Tetris?
I ask because I've been wondering if it is possible to clear level 29 using tool assistance (haven't been able to get more than a few lines playing without tool assistance). If so, how many levels has the game been programmed with, and how does the downward velocity of the blocks change after level 29?
Fastest to X lines doesn't seem interesting, as it would just be an extended version of the highscore TAS. It will go on infinitely long, and any number of lines reached would be arbitrary. It has already been done (unoptimized that is): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8uKJpPHNN0 (there are more parts to that movie, check the channel, or the related links movies)
From top to bottom...
Level 19 on NTSC = 0.67 seconds
Level 19 on PAL = 0.4 seconds
Level 29 on NTSC = 0.33 seconds
Level 19 on the PAL version the blocks fall slightly faster than level 19 on the NTSC version.
Playing Level 19 on the PAL version in NTSC speed is as fast as Level 29 on the NTSC version.
It is impossible to start at levels higher than 19 outside cheating or hacking.
Should we migrate this topic with the one from 2004?
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Should this topic be migrated with this?
And yes, we should do a Mode B run on the PAL version because it's slightly harder than the NTSC version.
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Edit by FractalFusion: Merged two threads and two posts. The second post merged was posted on 2012/08/29.
Sorry to bring this old topic up, but I'm planning to make a TAS of Tetris "Mode B". I think Baxter's run is much improvable, and I've already got solutions to complete the very same level with 34 blocks instead of 49 blocks. I have a few questions, and I need some advice.
1. How do we get to levels 20-29?
2. Do I have to start the run on the PAL version?
3. I didn't know that level 19 is random at first, and now I'm confused about what to choose. If I manipulate luck and get a combination that's fastest to be solved, would it destroy the meaning of this TAS? Or should I enter level 19 as soon as possible without manipulating luck?
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Sorry to bring this old topic up, but I'm planning to make a TAS of Tetris "Mode B".
HappyLee wrote:
1. How do we get to levels 20-29?
In mode B, there is no way to get to those (without hacking or corruption).
HappyLee wrote:
2. Do I have to start the run on the PAL version?
Well, Baxter used NTSC, so I think it should be used.
HappyLee wrote:
3. I didn't know that level 19 is random at first, and now I'm confused about what to choose. If I manipulate luck and get a combination that's fastest to be solved, would it destroy the meaning of this TAS? Or should I enter level 19 as soon as possible without manipulating luck?
Ah, these endpoint discussions...
I say that if you decide to go through luck manipulation route, ensure that the manipulation you do saves more time in the actual level than what the luck manipulation itself loses.
Sorry to bring this old topic up, but I'm planning to make a TAS of Tetris "Mode B".
HappyLee wrote:
1. How do we get to levels 20-29?
In mode B, there is no way to get to those (without hacking or corruption).
HappyLee wrote:
2. Do I have to start the run on the PAL version?
Well, Baxter used NTSC, so I think it should be used.
HappyLee wrote:
3. I didn't know that level 19 is random at first, and now I'm confused about what to choose. If I manipulate luck and get a combination that's fastest to be solved, would it destroy the meaning of this TAS? Or should I enter level 19 as soon as possible without manipulating luck?
Ah, these endpoint discussions...
I say that if you decide to go through luck manipulation route, ensure that the manipulation you do saves more time in the actual level than what the luck manipulation itself loses.
Thank you. Question 1 & 2 is for what PikachuMan said, he said it is impossible to start at levels higher than 19 outside cheating or hacking, and he suggested to use PAL version. And sorry I didn't get your answer about question 3. Since level 19 is random, we can manipulate luck to get an easier map to solve, but I think it would ruin the meaning of the TAS in some level, and I don't know what to choose.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Since level 19 is random, we can manipulate luck to get an easier map to solve, but I think it would ruin the meaning of the TAS in some level, and I don't know what to choose.
Well, the input file's length must beat the previous record, so the time taken to manipulate luck must not be too long, or it won't result in a shorter input file.
Since luck manipulation would probably be tedious, try what this submission did:
It's still hard to fit (and manipulate) the blocks up there, since I had to repeatedly fill the top few rows ... so I made this easier by bruteforcing again!
in this case it follows the "play at hardest level" guideline.
PAL tetris type B level 19 is MUCH harder than NTSC tetris type B level 19, and is BARELY possible to play at all unassisted.
Yeah, you will have to manipulate the garbage blocks that you start out with. The goal of the B-mode TAS is to clear all blocks (a so-called "bravo") with the final piece you drop. It is possible to get an odd number of garbage pieces to start out with, in which case it is impossible to meet the requirements of the TAS.
Also, for all we know the current version of the TAS is perfect, and it would be unfair if the time was improved based on the version of the game that it used. The current TAS was done on the (U) version, which is the version that the site generally encourages to be used (imagine an (E) version of SMB being accepted on the site if it were slightly faster than the (U) version).
HappyLee wrote:
I think Baxter's run is much improvable, and I've already got solutions to complete the very same level with 34 blocks instead of 49 blocks.
I don't really know what you mean by these "blocks" you are talking about. If you mean "pieces dropped", then I would be very interested how you did this while still meeting the "bravo" requirement.
I don't really know what you mean by these "blocks" you are talking about. If you mean "pieces dropped", then I would be very interested how you did this while still meeting the "bravo" requirement.
Thank you, Baxter. It does mean "pieces dropped", sorry for my bad description. I've found 4 different solutions to solve the very same puzzle with 34 pieces up to now, and the last one seems to be the fastest solution, because it has reached the fewest "clean-up (I don't know what it's called)" count in theory, and most of the pieces were put on an upper level (which saved some droping time), which means it's almost perfect. Unfortunately I have to manipulate luck lots of time to get it done, but I think it would be worth it.
I have the whole solution drawn on papers. It wasn't drawn very properly, but understandable I think. But now I probably won't use it, since I believe I can manipulate better garbage blocks to start with. So if you still want to see the solution, I'd be happy to take a photo and upload it to you.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
I am still puzzled by how you can do it with only 34 pieces. Besides getting a bravo, it is also required that you get this bravo while clearing the 25th line, and thereby clearing B-mode. Just erasing all the garbage tiles and getting a bravo, but not completing B-mode is not enough.
Maybe I'm mistaken, but what you claim sounds... impossible to me. I would love to be proven wrong though, so yeah, I would be very interested in that picture if it explains something.
I am still puzzled by how you can do it with only 34 pieces. Besides getting a bravo, it is also required that you get this bravo while clearing the 25th line, and thereby clearing B-mode. Just erasing all the garbage tiles and getting a bravo, but not completing B-mode is not enough.
Maybe I'm mistaken, but what you claim sounds... impossible to me. I would love to be proven wrong though, so yeah, I would be very interested in that picture if it explains something.
Alright, here's the photo. I hope it explains something, and I hope it's a correct solution, because I'm mainly a SMB player and I hardly ever played Tetris.
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm22/HappyLee12/HLTetris.gif
Terribly sorry for my bad drawings, they are barely readable, so for those of you who aren't interested with my solution, I strongly don't recommend you to see it.
This I think would work in theory, but in order to get it done, you need plenty of luck manipulation. I have other solutions as well, that don't need so much "straight pieces", but they are slow in theory, due to more total droping time and more "clean-up" count. I can easily solve the upper stage faster and left the puzzle done with 3 rows instead of 2 (but it has more total droping time therefore I didn't use it), but I don't find it possible to get a "bravo" with 29 pieces or less in the very same level.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
it's very possible to do it in 34, if you have the right number of garbage blocks
25*10=250 cells (to clear 25 lines)
- 34*4=136 cells (34 pieces)
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114 cells (garbage blocks)
:)
Yes, zaphod77 is correct. That's exactly the calculation I did. I already had a suspicion that Happylee's solution would clear 19 lines, because 34 pieces * 4 + 54 garbage blocks = 190 = 19 lines. The picture confirms this. (I also had 54 garbage blocks + 4 * 49 pieces = 250 blocks = 25 lines).
The number of garbage blocks is random, if I remember correctly, it will vary between like 50 and 55. It is indeed very possible to do it with 34 pieces if you get 114 garbage blocks, but it is very impossible to get that many garbage blocks. I tried a lot of random initial states, and 54 was the highest I could ever get. Getting 58 garbage blocks (meaning you would need 1 tetris piece less) is very unlikely I think, given what I tested. Even if it is possible (which I doubt), I think manipulating it would cost more time than dropping that single block, given that I tested random initial states for a lot of frames.
Something that could save time would be finding an initial setup that allows you to have fewer line-clear animations, by having on average more lines cleared per line-clear. I did try to optimize this in my TAS though, and finding an initial state that allows this may cost more time to manipulate than the line-clear animation takes.
Long story short, HappyLee's solution aims for the fastest possible bravo in B-mode. His solution clears 19 lines in total, which does not complete B-mode, and if the movie is stopped at that point, you would see pieces falling downwards in a straight line until game over. I do believe that actually clearing B-mode is a requirement for this TAS.
Yes, zaphod77 is correct. That's exactly the calculation I did. I already had a suspicion that Happylee's solution would clear 19 lines, because 34 pieces * 4 + 54 garbage blocks = 190 = 19 lines. The picture confirms this. (I also had 54 garbage blocks + 4 * 49 pieces = 250 blocks = 25 lines).
The number of garbage blocks is random, if I remember correctly, it will vary between like 50 and 55. It is indeed very possible to do it with 34 pieces if you get 114 garbage blocks, but it is very impossible to get that many garbage blocks. I tried a lot of random initial states, and 54 was the highest I could ever get. Getting 58 garbage blocks (meaning you would need 1 tetris piece less) is very unlikely I think, given what I tested. Even if it is possible (which I doubt), I think manipulating it would cost more time than dropping that single block, given that I tested random initial states for a lot of frames.
Something that could save time would be finding an initial setup that allows you to have fewer line-clear animations, by having on average more lines cleared per line-clear. I did try to optimize this in my TAS though, and finding an initial state that allows this may cost more time to manipulate than the line-clear animation takes.
Long story short, HappyLee's solution aims for the fastest possible bravo in B-mode. His solution clears 19 lines in total, which does not complete B-mode, and if the movie is stopped at that point, you would see pieces falling downwards in a straight line until game over. I do believe that actually clearing B-mode is a requirement for this TAS.
Oh, I'm sorry. I thought clearing all blocks would just complete the B-mode. I don't see why the number 25 is so important. :(
So what would be our goal exactly after we manipulate the garbage blocks? We waste about 15 blocks on the top, and then clear the garbage blocks with 34 pieces? Would that be the fastest solution to this mess? Sorry I'm deeply confused.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Well, I think that when B-mode was created by the programmer(s) they thought of it like "are you able to surive the time it takes you to make 25 lines if you start at a certain height?". So the goal for B-mode is to clear 25 lines. This would result in a movie extremely similar to the published A-mode movie, and would never be published. Then someone submitted a B-mode movie that got a bravo at the final line, which means that you need to build down all the garbage blocks that you are provided with from the beginning. I think this extra requirement of the bravo is what made this movie interesting and different enough to be published next to the A-mode TAS. But yeah, in the end, you do need 25 lines, or B-mode is not completed.
Your question is an interesting one though. Would it be faster if you would start out by clearing a tetris (4 lines at the same time) at the top, and then start working down. This would mean that the pieces you use at the start with don't need to be dropped down as far. On the other hand, this may mean that more line-clear animations are needed to clear the 25 lines, which costs time. It's an interesting idea that's certainly worth testing, it could be faster!
yes the goal using this solution would be
0) manipulate the proper garbage pattern.
1) clear enough space on top to be able to make one tetris and one double. (hopefully not needed)
2) make the tetris and double
3) clear the rest.
This in theory woudl be fastest.
If you make a tetris at the start, not clearing any garbage blocks, then you will have more than the minimum number of line-clear animations, so it is not as simple as you are suggesting. It has its ups and downs.
It takes 7 line clear aniations to clear 25 lines
1)4
2)4
3)4
4)4
5)4
6)4
7)1
it takes 5 to clear 19
1)4
2)4
3)4
4)4
5)3
and 2 to clear 6
1)4
2)2
So we have
1)2
2)4
3)3
4)4
5)4
6)4
7)4
7 line clears.
So this IS the minimum number of line clears after all. seven.
now that bravo solution does not do it in only five line clears. it takes more. but regardless, any 19 line solution will require two line clears before or after it. and doing the line clears before it is faster. :)
The real key is clearing as many garbage lines as possible with each line clear that clears garbage lines. There is a very nasty pattern just after halfway down on the left side that it really wold be a good idea to manipulate away if possible.
Err, your discussion is nice and all, but you cannot just choose how many line clear animations you will have. Some initial state of garbage blocks will allow a solution with less line clear animations than other initial states. My TAS has a total of 9 line clear animations. HappyLee's 19 line solution, as shown in his picture, already had 10 line clear animations.
Getting an initial state where as few line clear animations as possible were needed was obviously something I tried to get. I think I found a pretty good initial state that I was able to clear with only 9 animations. Of course, theoretically you can clear 25 lines with only 7 animations, but if there are no initial states that allow this, or if it takes too long to manipulate such an initial state, then it is not really relevant that this is theoretically possible.
Well, need to
a) reverse random generator and determine the number of possible seeds.
b) test out all possible seeds to get their llayouts.
c) eliminate all the aproduce an odd number of blocks
d) eliminate all that produce a multiple of four blocks
e) test all remaining initial states. i believ eit' sbetter in most cases to drop one extra piece than make one extra line clear.
Because the number of pieces needed to clear the mode is dependent only on the initial amount of garbage, it is the number of clears that matters.
WIth ludicrous luck, it's theoretically possible to remove the garbage in three line clears with two cells left over, leaving one single and 4 tetrises worth to clear. HOwever that is not needed. FInishing the level with 7 line clears, a bravo, and scoring line clears as high up the field as possible gives the best time.
incidentally, 114 garbage cells is completely impossible. the maximum possible is 110 without filling one of the 12 lines garbage can spawn in.
